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Jack Kirby's "Fourth World" -- origin of the phrase?
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Started by jools&jim,

51 posts in this topic

Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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I kind of like the Fourth World is Earth theory. This theory says the 1st world was Asgard. The 2nd & 3rd worlds were Apokolips & New Genesis, derived from the destruction of Asgard in Ragnarok. In the series, Earth was an obvious fascination for the New Gods characters, a fascination Kirby never got around to explaining. Maybe because Earth would turn out to be the synthesis of dark & light, the Fourth World culmination of all that came before...

Nice! I've never heard that one before. After all, it was Earthlings who possessed the Anti-Life Equation, right?

 

I'm glad that Kirby didn't explain everything, and--whether intentional or not--left at least some of it open to interpretation. I'm guessing that's one reason among many why these stories have aged better than more concrete, topical fare from the same period (for example, the GL/GA stories by O'Neil and Adams), and probably why many post-Kirby treatments of the same characters have been (to me at least, and to varying degrees) unsatisfying. Kirby's soaring imagination routinely opened the door to new worlds, but also provided our imaginations with some tantalizing open spaces to fill.

 

 

I like that as well, and your point of them ageing better because of it makes a lot of sense. Really because of it, there's so much more to discuss and analyze! But I still wonder sometimes what could've been...

 

If he would've had as much time to develop it as the Marvel Universe, it's amazing to think what it could have become. Even the FF and Thor didn't really hit their stride until a few years down the line, though they included enough of the concepts and ideas early on to make them tremendously appealing.

 

Imagine if we only had the first 10 to 12 issues of the FF or Thor?

 

Kirby was almost like a super computer Sims world creator, throwing ideas out fast and furious and organizing them even as he's creating more new ideas until he has a huge populated universe with characters interacting together, leading to bigger and better stories...

 

He definitely was painting with a bigger canvas!

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jools&jim

jools&jim

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If he would've had as much time to develop it as the Marvel Universe, it's amazing to think what it could have become. Even the FF and Thor didn't really hit their stride until a few years down the line, though they included enough of the concepts and ideas early on to make them tremendously appealing.

 

Imagine if we only had the first 10 to 12 issues of the FF or Thor?

Agree 100%. It could have been...well, "epic", which was the whole idea from the very beginning!

 

I remember reading somewhere that back in the '80s, when one of the higher ups at DC (Paul Levitz maybe?) offered Jack the opportunity to publish a conclusion to his Fourth World saga (which becames the Hunger Dogs GN), he was simply too polite to say no. From his point of view, he had barely started the thing before all the titles were cancelled! So how could he possibly wrap it all up--to his, or anyone's satisfaction--in a single book, nearly 10 years later? I'm glad we have it, but still...

 

It also must have been very difficult for Kirby to see the same basic concepts (albeit lacking his vision and much of the philosophical depth) succeed on a grand scale in Star Wars and its original sequels. This stuff was viable, and he knew it!

 

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vaillant

vaillant

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I kind of like the Fourth World is Earth theory. This theory says the 1st world was Asgard. The 2nd & 3rd worlds were Apokolips & New Genesis, derived from the destruction of Asgard in Ragnarok. In the series, Earth was an obvious fascination for the New Gods characters, a fascination Kirby never got around to explaining. Maybe because Earth would turn out to be the synthesis of dark & light, the Fourth World culmination of all that came before...

Nice! I've never heard that one before. After all, it was Earthlings who possessed the Anti-Life Equation, right?

 

I'm glad that Kirby didn't explain everything, and--whether intentional or not--left at least some of it open to interpretation. I'm guessing that's one reason among many why these stories have aged better than more concrete, topical fare from the same period (for example, the GL/GA stories by O'Neil and Adams), and probably why many post-Kirby treatments of the same characters have been (to me at least, and to varying degrees) unsatisfying. Kirby's soaring imagination routinely opened the door to new worlds, but also provided our imaginations with some tantalizing open spaces to fill.

 

Right, Zonker is right, but more than saying it was meant as a "synthesis of dark & light" is a theatre where contrasting forces are balanced (Orion and Lightray visits to Earth are very significant, in this sense – they quite struck me as a kid).

 

On the contrary, I don’t think it’s entirely correct to see the characters as being on a stage: Orion and Lightray just speak in that "godlike" language (in pagan sense) because they are indeed not human, but most humans speak in an ordinary way.

 

Since I have been talking about here and there and never posted anything, here’s an excerpt from my interview with Jack Kirby from 1991. The female voice asking the question first is my cousin-in-law which graciously hosted me when I came to the US. The question revolves mostly around Orion and Darkseid’s relationship. :)

 

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travisbickle21

travisbickle21

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I kind of like the Fourth World is Earth theory. This theory says the 1st world was Asgard. The 2nd & 3rd worlds were Apokolips & New Genesis, derived from the destruction of Asgard in Ragnarok. In the series, Earth was an obvious fascination for the New Gods characters, a fascination Kirby never got around to explaining. Maybe because Earth would turn out to be the synthesis of dark & light, the Fourth World culmination of all that came before...

Nice! I've never heard that one before. After all, it was Earthlings who possessed the Anti-Life Equation, right?

 

I'm glad that Kirby didn't explain everything, and--whether intentional or not--left at least some of it open to interpretation. I'm guessing that's one reason among many why these stories have aged better than more concrete, topical fare from the same period (for example, the GL/GA stories by O'Neil and Adams), and probably why many post-Kirby treatments of the same characters have been (to me at least, and to varying degrees) unsatisfying. Kirby's soaring imagination routinely opened the door to new worlds, but also provided our imaginations with some tantalizing open spaces to fill.

 

Right, Zonker is right, but more than saying it was meant as a "synthesis of dark & light" is a theatre where contrasting forces are balanced (Orion and Lightray visits to Earth are very significant, in this sense – they quite struck me as a kid).

 

On the contrary, I don’t think it’s entirely correct to see the characters as being on a stage: Orion and Lightray just speak in that "godlike" language (in pagan sense) because they are indeed not human, but most humans speak in an ordinary way.

 

Since I have been talking about here and there and never posted anything, here’s an excerpt from my interview with Jack Kirby from 1991. The female voice asking the question first is my cousin-in-law which graciously hosted me when I came to the US. The question revolves mostly around Orion and Darkseid’s relationship. :)

 

 

This clip is fantastic! Thank you so much for posting this! Is the rest of the interview available online somewhere?

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vaillant

vaillant

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No, but Jeremy Kirby (Jack’s nephew) showed interest in possibly posting snippets of it on his Kirby Facebook profile, but I am still undecided as I don’t like Facebook.

 

I had also to send it to John Morrow for a new transcription and possible re-publication in the Jack Kirby collector but haven’t done nothing so far…

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travisbickle21

travisbickle21

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I can understand your feelings about Facebook, and certainly you have the right to do as you please, but I think you'd be doing a great thing for all of us Kirby fans to make this interview available in one form or another. Thanks for sharing even the portion you have already provided.

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jools&jim

jools&jim

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I found a few lists online, but I just wanted to check here. Can someone give me the lists of Jimmy Olsen books related to Kirby's 4th World?

133 - 148 (except for 140) are the Kirby issues -- some are more tied into the Fourth World storyline than others, but even the later issues are generally considered to be part of it...

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jools&jim

jools&jim

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Here's one I've never heard before:

 

• 19,000,000,000 years ago - The Source creates (and is created by) the Universe (1st World)

 

• 15,000,000,000 years ago - Humanoid life attains "godhood" on the GodWorld (2nd World)

 

• 35,000 years ago - First Terrestrial Gods appear (Beginning of 3rd World)

 

• 30,000 years ago - Denzens (sic) of Apokolips and New Genesis attain "Godhood" (4th World)

See the whole thing here:

 

http://fastbak.tripod.com/ngchrono.htm

 

I'm guessing this incorporates some post-Kirby additions to the mythos established by later creators. Or maybe it's just a fanciful, fan-fic sorta thing. But I sincerely doubt that much or even any of it can be adduced from Kirby's canonical material...

 

 

 

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jools&jim

jools&jim

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On another matter, did you like the audio snippet? :)

 

(thumbs u

 

Guess I missed it when it was first posted. Very, very cool -- the voice of The Master!

 

When I was still working in the comics biz (ca. 1992-93), my co-worker interviewed Kirby (actually, more like "The Kirbys"--Roz talked as much as Jack!) via telephone in our office, and I was able to listen in on the line.

 

It was recorded on an old analog mini-cassette, and after it was transcribed, some fool recorded over it with another interview, probably with some Wizard-Fan-Flavorite-of-The-Month-BS... :sick:

 

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vaillant

vaillant

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Luckily this not happened with my audio-cassette: I made a copy as early as 1992, and then digitized it right now. Not bad for a twenty-years-old tape.

 

And yes… in the interview Roz speaks as often as Jack (although on the background). I also recall Jack had some kind of stroke, or anticipation of a stroke, before the San Diego 1993 Comic convention, and I do not exclude he had suffered from something similar previously, as I am pretty sure he had difficulties to write already in 1991 when I visited – I am convinced the pieces he signed for me were signed by Roz. Not that matters, but just to say… (thumbs u

 

Did you work in the comics field?

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Monstro

Monstro

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I would love to have a thread comprised of every Fourth World related book DC printed in the BA.

Forever People, Mister Miracle, New Gods and Jimmy Olsen. No particular order.

 

If you have one just throw it up. I'd like to see them all in one place. I stand @ eight books right now but I'd like to put together the complete 1st run.

 

Would this current thread work, or would it be better to start a new one?

 

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