Church collection value today?

[Aman619]

Why doen't anyone ever call Bill Gates a insufficiently_thoughtful_person since he sold off so much of Microsoft for what would now be pennys on the dollar?

 

cause in an analogy to the Church books, what Gates kept and sold is comparable to Chuck having ket a decent percentage of all th estock. Gates STILL kept enough of Microsoft to have been worth north of 70 billion (? I forget) at one point, right? Chuck kept nearly 0%

 

Steve from Metro sold a Spidey 1 that graded CGC 9.6 for under $2,000.

They are businessmen. They sell. Its what they do.

 

IMO this is a better analogy. And quite makes your point that I cant argue with. But didnt Steve actually KEEP what is generally referred to as a "killer" collection on the side over the years? Perhaps he kept a better copy of nearly every book he sold back then?

[Norrin_Radd]

Why doen't anyone ever call Bill Gates a insufficiently_thoughtful_person since he sold off so much of Microsoft for what would now be pennys on the dollar?

 

cause in an analogy to the Church books, what Gates kept and sold is comparable to Chuck having ket a decent percentage of all th estock. Gates STILL kept enough of Microsoft to have been worth north of 70 billion (? I forget) at one point, right? Chuck kept nearly 0%

 

Steve from Metro sold a Spidey 1 that graded CGC 9.6 for under $2,000.

They are businessmen. They sell. Its what they do.

 

IMO this is a better analogy. And quite makes your point that I cant argue with. But didnt Steve actually KEEP what is generally referred to as a "killer" collection on the side over the years? Perhaps he kept a better copy of nearly every book he sold back then?

 

"All I was left with was the Red Raven #1" - Chuck Rozanski

 

I think we should all show up at a con with t-shirts bearing Chuck's visage that read...

 

"I bought the most important comic collection in history and all I got was a copy of Red Raven #1."

 

 

BTW dealers are dealers and collectors are collectors. Church was a collector and Chuck is a dealer. Period.

[tth2]

Simple...just add up the value of every GA book from 1937 to 1952

 

The collection that Chuck purchased did not contain any Duck books, according to Chuck himself.

[tth2]

Avoiding taxes is a constitutional right,evading them is a felony.

lets see,according to you-he was upheld in a court of law and an IRS investigation turned up the fact that he had taken legitimate steps to reduce his tax liability.

What a cumbag,huh?

 

I'm quite sure you have properly recorded each and every comic transaction you've done and paid all the appropriate taxes,right?

 

[Aman619]

I think we should all show up at a con with t-shirts bearing Chuck's visage that read...

 

"I bought the most important comic collection in history and all I got was a copy of Red Raven #1."

 

 

BTW dealers are dealers and collectors are collectors. Church was a collector and Chuck is a dealer. Period.

 

 

[rob_react]

Simple...just add up the value of every GA book from 1937 to 1952

 

The collection that Chuck purchased did not contain any Duck books, according to Chuck himself.

 

I believe there were no funny animal books at all. He speculated that they had already been dumped before he arrived since there was an empty storage bin (and I paraphrase greatly.)

[Norrin_Radd]

Simple...just add up the value of every GA book from 1937 to 1952

 

The collection that Chuck purchased did not contain any Duck books, according to Chuck himself.

 

I believe there were no funny animal books at all. He speculated that they had already been dumped before he arrived since there was an empty storage bin (and I paraphrase greatly.)

 

" The solution to my cash flow problem turned out to be my best customer at the Boulder store. He and I were good friends, sharing a mutual passion for Dell comics of the 1940's and early 1950's. He was (is) a computer programmer, and was pulling down a very good salary in 1977. He and his wife drove over to our apartment the next day, and I made him a proposition. If he would cash in one of his bank CD's from his savings, I would let him purchase a portion of the comics for 40% of 1976 Overstreet! He took one quick look at the collection, and immediately agreed to my plan. That was one of the smartest moves he ever made in his life, as he ended up with a return that I estimate was over 20X his original investment! For those of you who care about these things, my friend picked primarily funny animal comics in exchange for his CD. Steve Geppi bought them from him in about 1986."

 

 

"At the same time, there were a tantalizing samplings of humor comics, such as LOONEY TUNES #1, ANIMAL COMICS #1, and all the LITTLE LULU Four Color issues, mixed in with the super-hero comics."

[rob_react]

So you've gone through the article, and you're telling me that it was humor books that the collection was lacking? What does he speculate was missing?

[Norrin_Radd]

So you've gone through the article, and you're telling me that it was humor books that the collection was lacking? What does he speculate was missing?

 

I have the whole thing saved as a word file. Here's the excerpt about "the 2nd room" of Church's collection...

 

"In the many discussions I've had with people about the contents of that second room, the general conclusion that we've reached is that the room contained Church's collection of humor comics. We've extrapolated this conclusion from the fact that there are some very unusual holes in the runs of super-hero comics that were in the walk-in closet from which I obtained the Golden Age. At the same time, there were a tantalizing samplings of humor comics, such as LOONEY TUNES #1, ANIMAL COMICS #1, and all the LITTLE LULU Four Color issues, mixed in with the super-hero comics. If Church was buying all the comics being printed, where were all the humor comics? Wouldn't it make sense that if Church was roughly sorting his super-hero/adventure comics into one room, while his humor books went into the second, that a few books would get put into the wrong closet? That would explain why a few of the super-hero books were missing from otherwise complete runs, and why a few humor books were mixed in with the super-heroes. Sadly, I think the most likely scenario is that all the humor comics were sent to the dump prior to my arrival. If that was the case, then the collection of Golden Age that everyone acknowledges as the best ever discovered in the history of the hobby, was actually half destroyed prior to my arrival."

[Forbush-Man]

Why doen't anyone ever call Bill Gates a insufficiently_thoughtful_person since he sold off so much of Microsoft for what would now be pennys on the dollar?

 

cause in an analogy to the Church books, what Gates kept and sold is comparable to Chuck having ket a decent percentage of all th estock. Gates STILL kept enough of Microsoft to have been worth north of 70 billion (? I forget) at one point, right? Chuck kept nearly 0%

 

Steve from Metro sold a Spidey 1 that graded CGC 9.6 for under $2,000.

They are businessmen. They sell. Its what they do.

 

IMO this is a better analogy. And quite makes your point that I cant argue with. But didnt Steve actually KEEP what is generally referred to as a "killer" collection on the side over the years? Perhaps he kept a better copy of nearly every book he sold back then?

 

"All I was left with was the Red Raven #1" - Chuck Rozanski

 

I think we should all show up at a con with t-shirts bearing Chuck's visage that read...

 

"I bought the most important comic collection in history and all I got was a copy of Red Raven #1."

 

 

BTW dealers are dealers and collectors are collectors. Church was a collector and Chuck is a dealer. Period.

 

Too bad for him he's not a collector,...he'd be better off today and could retire to his Organic Farm and spin Pottery all day without a care in the world !

 

"Zippity Do-da, Zippity ay!! My, oh my, What a wonderful pedigree collection I still got today ! - Chuck on Earth 2 (with apologies to D.C. for putting him there).

[rob_react]

Thanks.

[lou_fine]

Avoiding taxes is a constitutional right,evading them is a felony.

lets see,according to you-he was upheld in a court of law and an IRS investigation turned up the fact that he had taken legitimate steps to reduce his tax liability.

What a cumbag,huh?

 

I'm quite sure you have properly recorded each and every comic transaction you've done and paid all the appropriate taxes,right?

 

Hi Shadroch;

 

Sorry for the late response to your post. Somehow, I must have missed it since I have been quite busy for the past week.

 

I think you misunderstood my point. I believe that Chuckles was found GUILTY of income tax evasion. It's just that he had no money and nothing left in his name when it came time to pay up. I believed he had maneuvered his money and assets in such as way that he was technically and legally bankrupt when it came time to pay up. This basically gave him a fresh start and allowed him to build his empire from that point on.

 

From a tax point of view, you have to remember that Chuck ran a full-time comic business and this was how he derived his income. As a result, everything he sold that was comic book-related was completely taxable similar to other comic companies such as Metro, SNE, Heritage, etc, and should clearly have been paying all his taxes.

 

As for me, I am not in the comic book business since I derive my primary income from a regular job. As a result, I am not taxable from a income point of view, although I am taxable from a capital gains point of view. A capital gains, however, requires a buy and sale of an item. As a collector, however, I have never really sold anything except for a few books back in 2000 whereby the gains were offset by some capital losses I had unfortuantely incurred in the market.

 

A better question, is to ask the flippers (and maybe yourself included?), how they handle their taxable gains situation. Actually, if we are liable for the gains, should we not also be entiled to losses on speculative books and expenses such as convention travel costs, storage costs, grading costs, research magazine subscriptions, etc?

[PedigreeMan]

Has this "Chuck being sued by the Church heirs" ever been confirmed?

 

Alan

[lou_fine]

Has this "Chuck being sued by the Church heirs" ever been confirmed?

 

Alan

 

I think we should get some of the lawyers on this board to check all this out for us. They should know where to look for all of this information. A lot more reliable than asking the two parties involved, especially Chuckles himself.

 

All we ever seem to hear are rumours and stories from so-called people in the know or from second-hand articles in the comic publications of the day.

 

So, do we have any volunteers from the legal profession here to take on this task so that we can get the "real" story once and for all.

[shadroch]

Avoiding taxes is a constitutional right,evading them is a felony.

lets see,according to you-he was upheld in a court of law and an IRS investigation turned up the fact that he had taken legitimate steps to reduce his tax liability.

What a cumbag,huh?

 

I'm quite sure you have properly recorded each and every comic transaction you've done and paid all the appropriate taxes,right?

 

Hi Shadroch;

 

Sorry for the late response to your post. Somehow, I must have missed it since I have been quite busy for the past week.

 

I think you misunderstood my point. I believe that Chuckles was found GUILTY of income tax evasion. It's just that he had no money and nothing left in his name when it came time to pay up. I believed he had maneuvered his money and assets in such as way that he was technically and legally bankrupt when it came time to pay up. This basically gave him a fresh start and allowed him to build his empire from that point on.

 

From a tax point of view, you have to remember that Chuck ran a full-time comic business and this was how he derived his income. As a result, everything he sold that was comic book-related was completely taxable similar to other comic companies such as Metro, SNE, Heritage, etc, and should clearly have been paying all his taxes.

 

As for me, I am not in the comic book business since I derive my primary income from a regular job. As a result, I am not taxable from a income point of view, although I am taxable from a capital gains point of view. A capital gains, however, requires a buy and sale of an item. As a collector, however, I have never really sold anything except for a few books back in 2000 whereby the gains were offset by some capital losses I had unfortuantely incurred in the market.

 

A better question, is to ask the flippers (and maybe yourself included?), how they handle their taxable gains situation. Actually, if we are liable for the gains, should we not also be entiled to losses on speculative books and expenses such as convention travel costs, storage costs, grading costs, research magazine subscriptions, etc?

 

 

Lou,

First off,let me say I wasn't directing the tax question directly at you. It was a rhetorical question to anyone who read it.

Hobbys and taxes,and businesses and taxes and where the two meet are something best not discussed in this venue,imo. Consult a paid professional for any advice worth recieving.

You have your view of Chuckles,and I have mine. I think it's safe to say we won't ever agree on them. I don't think,however,you are in full possesion of the facts around the case. Nor am I.

As I understand it,the IRS would not back off on taxes due,neither because of bankruptcy or indencency(sp).

Anyone who knows,feel free to chime in here.

As far as Chuck being found guilty of tax-evasion,this is something I am not aware of.Could you provide any sort of documentation about this/ I'm not doubting you,simply am not aware of it.

[ghoulaid]

Chuck being found guilty of tax evasion and sued by the Church heirs is all news to me I'm about positive those are untrue rumors.

[Aman619]

The heirs did express their grieveances to Chuck about the sale price after the fact though right? Maybe threatened a lawsuit in their anger, but were probably dissuaded from going through with it as an unwinnable case. just guessing..

[garthgantu]

If it's true that he pretty much built his Mile High Comics stores on the proceeds of the sale of the Church comics - what sort of income do you think his stores have generated over 30 years? Wasn't it smarter to sell the comics back in the 70s so he could set up his stores and invest the money? If he had kept them for 30 years the amount of money they would have generated until he sold = $0.

 

I think you're comparing gross sales to net profits?

 

If Chuck had kept the whole collection until now and sold it at today's prices, $50 million seems like a safe estimate.

 

Chuck's "comic book empire" has probably generated $100 million in gross sales over the past 30 years (this is a total guess on my part, BTW). But after all the expenses are taken into account, I'd guess that the actual profits generated by his business have been no more than $5-10 million, if that.

[goldust40]

If it's true that he pretty much built his Mile High Comics stores on the proceeds of the sale of the Church comics - what sort of income do you think his stores have generated over 30 years? Wasn't it smarter to sell the comics back in the 70s so he could set up his stores and invest the money? If he had kept them for 30 years the amount of money they would have generated until he sold = $0.

 

I think you're comparing gross sales to net profits?

 

If Chuck had kept the whole collection until now and sold it at today's prices, $50 million seems like a safe estimate.

 

Chuck's "comic book empire" has probably generated $100 million in gross sales over the past 30 years (this is a total guess on my part, BTW). But after all the expenses are taken into account, I'd guess that the actual profits generated by his business have been no more than $5-10 million, if that.

 

Not exactly chump change......and part of the enterprise is the ego trip, after all.

[garthgantu]

A fair point, Gold, but I'd respond by saying that in 30 years, I'll have earned a similar amount, and I'll still have my comic book collection too

 

Further, we're talking about ~100,000 hours of your life spent getting a business off the ground and running smoothly... if he'd kept the collection, he'd have saved some of that sweat time as well.