CGC grades vs you know who posted by Brian Hartman

[bagofleas]

It all depends on how much you want to risk it. Yes, if handled carefully, there is a good chance for it to retain its 9.9 grade. But if what you have is an issue from 1995 or earlier and its the single highest graded copy out there, you may not want to take that risk for even a 95% retainment rate.

 

Now if its a very modern issue, thats a different story. Those are more readily available in the top two grades so...

 

It just comes down to a personal decision about how confident you are in retainment of the particular issue. I personally would never crack a 9.9 or 10 of a pre-2000 comic for any reason. But that's me. You may feel differently.

 

And that's perfectly fine. (thumbs u

[SW3D]

I love your thinking!

 

Perhaps the CGC and CCS should augment the census with a population for pressed books. And why not? But these numbers would probably do no one any good if we can't identify those pressed books.

 

However, in the case of a comic which is submitted for pressing through CCS that eventually gets submitted to CGC, the pressing info should follow that comic onto the Blue Universal label much like a Signature Notation is made on a Yellow Label. The notation may read/appear as "CCS Pressing October 24, 2013". And if this same comic should be pressed again, the next notation should read: "2nd CCS Pressing January 1, 2014"...etc. And in the grader notes (which should be an automatic free service and not an extra fee) include not only the pressing, but any and all grade changes irrespective of pressing.

 

If we could get this implemented by CGC, then it will help curtail pressing abuses but also legitimize pressing.

 

Your thoughts and any one else's?

 

SW3D

[SW3D]

How did u manage to discover all this? Did you chance upon them on an auction site?

 

And how do you feel? I imagine it must be somewhat painful to see your comics changed this way.

 

SW3D

[mysterio]

I love your thinking!

 

Perhaps the CGC and CCS should augment the census with a population for pressed books. And why not? But these numbers would probably do no one any good if we can't identify those pressed books.

 

However, in the case of a comic which is submitted for pressing through CCS that eventually gets submitted to CGC, the pressing info should follow that comic onto the Blue Universal label much like a Signature Notation is made on a Yellow Label. The notation may read/appear as "CCS Pressing October 24, 2013". And if this same comic should be pressed again, the next notation should read: "2nd CCS Pressing January 1, 2014"...etc. And in the grader notes (which should be an automatic free service and not an extra fee) include not only the pressing, but any and all grade changes irrespective of pressing.

 

If we could get this implemented by CGC, then it will help curtail pressing abuses but also legitimize pressing.

 

Your thoughts and any one else's?

 

SW3D

 

CGC is a company that provides a third party opinion on grade and a restoration check. There is no way they could, or would want to, put a book's entire post-publication history on the label. You might as well put the names and shoe sizes of all previous owners on the label as well. Nor would they have any way, or desire, to put that information in the grader's notes. The grade change history is particularly odd, as it would call their abilities to grade correctly into question, or to admit that books are being manipulated to get grade bumps. So they'd need to be psychic and simultaneously stop caring about their image.

 

CGC is a grading business, not the Library of Congress for life history information on books that pass through their hands.

[SW3D]

Very much disagree with you.

 

CGC is paid for their unbiased grading services. They are paid for impartiality and not opinions.

They recognize CCS and their pressing services... they are partners after all... and because of this they must be obligated to note all pressing and restoration that comes by way of CCS... No if's, and's or buts! And this info must be logged into a database for all to see, and this info must follow that comic as long as it remains bound by a CGC label. There is no excuse that can refute this obligation! If CGC can't do this or is unwilling to do this... then they can't claim reliability or impartiality. It has to be done! Only a foolish person would disagree!

 

SW3D

[mysterio]

If you don't pay for an opinion then what does the number in the upper left corner of the slab represent?

 

As has been rehashed in a million threads, they'll never note work done by CCS on a label. EVER. It would immediately render those books less desirable than the same book that has also been pressed, just not by CCS so no disclosure is made. CGC gains nothing by noting pressing on labels, and it would do serious harm to their business. Never. Going. To. Happen.

[SW3D]

The grade is not a mere "opinion" but more of a professional appraisal achieved through a near scientific system and set of processes by those who have been schooled in a specific skill.

 

As far as desirability playing a factor... by playing this card you completely render the CGC and what it stands for as worthless... for any company that is in league with a pressing company yet fails to make such denotations on comics they grade are anything but bias and impartial.

 

Remember... You are paying them for impartiality... and you are also paying them for information.

 

Are you telling me that you are excusing this non-disclosure practice simply because you feel comics that are pressed are less valuable or desirable than non-pressed comics?

 

If this is true... Then why press comics to begin with?

 

And if it is true that comics which have been pressed are less desirable... Then why would the CGC partner with a pressing and restoration company to begin with? Does that make sense to you?

 

SW3D

[Bomber-Bob]

How did u manage to discover all this? Did you chance upon them on an auction site?

 

And how do you feel? I imagine it must be somewhat painful to see your comics changed this way.

 

SW3D

 

Here is a link to a thread approaching 400 pages on the topic of pressing, cover shrinkage, CCS, spine realignments to hide defects, CGC grading, etc.

I like the way you think, feel free to participate. Good luck, it's a big thread.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7118311&fpart=1

[mysterio]

As much as you might like it to be otherwise, a grade is an opinion. An appraisal is an opinion. No matter the level of skill that goes into it, the grade given is an opinion. You pay them for their skilled and learned opinion.

 

If you feel that CGC is worthless if they don't disclose CCS pressing and/or other work on the label, then you must feel that their current stance of not doing so makes their services worthless at present.

 

People press comics to make them look better and raise their grades, but not everyone who buys comics either likes pressing or knows what it is. Some would pay less for a pressed book, or wouldn't buy one. I am perfectly happy with a nicely pressed book, and assume that any book that I buy that is slabbed has been pressed. It's easier that way and I'm probably usually correct. Pressing should be disclosed, in a perfect world. But for CGC to do that would render the playing field unlevel and put them and CCS at a disadvantage. If you cannot see that then we'll just have to disagree.

[Bomber-Bob]

As much as you might like it to be otherwise, a grade is an opinion. An appraisal is an opinion. No matter the level of skill that goes into it, the grade given is an opinion. You pay them for their skilled and learned opinion.

 

If you feel that CGC is worthless if they don't disclose CCS pressing and/or other work on the label, then you must feel that their current stance of not doing so makes their services worthless at present.

 

People press comics to make them look better and raise their grades, but not everyone who buys comics either likes pressing or knows what it is. Some would pay less for a pressed book, or wouldn't buy one. I am perfectly happy with a nicely pressed book, and assume that any book that I buy that is slabbed has been pressed. It's easier that way and I'm probably usually correct. Pressing should be disclosed, in a perfect world. But for CGC to do that would render the playing field unlevel and put them and CCS at a disadvantage. If you cannot see that then we'll just have to disagree.

 

The fact that CCS is in business with CGC has already created an 'unlevel' playing field for other pressers. I'm sure Joey and other pressers feel CCS has an advantage and they do. Putting the fact that the book was pressed on the label would hurt CCS's business a little but not much.

[bagofleas]

Look here guys. I happen to know this for a fact. When a book is presented to a CGC grader, they are NOT told ANYTHING about the book.

 

They are not told if it has been graded before.

They are not told what grade it previously had, if it had been graded before.

They are not informed about anything that may or may not have been done to the book prior to it entering their hands.

They make all of their determinations on the book "in the dark".

 

This includes pressing. CCS is a partner with the parent company CCG, but is a totally separate entity from CGC, which is also a partner with the parent company CCG.

 

When a book is pressed by CCS, it then is given over to accounting at CGC. Accounting does all of the verification of the book, then takes any label that was previously on the book and records it for census purposes, then shreds it!

 

The grader never deals with any of this! They don't know what went on with the book prior to it being in their hands.

 

CGC will never put pressings on the labels because:

 

1) the graders and encapsulators don't necessarily know that the book was pressed or not and...

2) CGC has officially ruled that pressing is not considered any form of restoration.

 

Therefore, if you feel strongly about pressing being made known in order to apply viability with the grade it receives, then you should stop collecting CGC books right now. Because they have justified pressing as a completely separate form of comic preparation that has nothing to do with the final grade of an issue.

 

The grade is given based on the CURRENT condition of the comic and how closely to its original state from off-the-press it is. If multiple pressings or an improperly handled pressing have caused the book to be altered in such a way as to cause the grade to drop, that is the chance you take when opting for pressing in the first place.

 

You don't have to have your books pressed. In fact, if you can get what you want out of CGC without doing any pressing, then so much the better. But you can forget CGC ever divulging pressings on labels.

 

There is simply now way for them to do it. It could have been pressed by someone else prior to it being sent to them and they can't necessarily tell. How are they supposed to differentiate between the comics they KNOW have been pressed and the ones that they DONT know have been?

 

And like I said, the graders DONT know beforehand whether a book has been officially or in many cases, unofficially pressed or not.

 

Discuss it all you like, but this is the nature of CGC grading now. Since they never started by declaring pressings on labels, they can't do a recall on all previously graded comics that were pressed. Besides, declaring on the labels to begin with would contradict what they have established.

 

It would be saying, "pressing is not restoration, but we'll let you know when it's happened, since some may feel it is".

 

Sorry, that's just how it is, folks. Accept it or don't do business with CGC anymore. It's up to you.

 

As for me, I don't have a problem with it. In fact, I appreciate the fact that it is now an option for us.

[Garlanda]

I'd bet that 95% of them would retain 9.9.

 

Anyone who cracks open a CGC 9.9 or Gem Mint 10 should have their head examined anyway.

 

 

 

 

Trust me, I've had numerous opportunities to have MY head examined.

 

 

I've seen cases where cracking a 9.9 to get a sig led to the issue getting SS 9.8 before. It is UBER risky, even with the 95% working for you, but if it comes through for you, getting a SS 9.9 is AMAZING!! I love Ronnylama's Alpha flight #1 !!

 

 

Still confused. 95% seems like a reasonably sure thing, so why would this also be UBER (all caps needed) risky? If 19 out of 20 cracked 9.9s will not drop in grade, it would seem there isn't much to worry about.

 

Mysterio, I think what bagofleas is saying is not that there's a risk of 9.9s dropping in grade, but there's a risk of me dropping my 9.9 on the floor!

 

So imagine you've got a pristine, beautiful 9.9 or 10 and want to get an ultimate grail signature on it. You carefully crack the slab, and delicately slide the book into a pre-staged window-cut bag and board with surgical precision. You transport your comic to the private signing with an armored car and an abducted CGC witness. You present your book to be signed... and the creator grabs it in a kung-fu grip, drips coffee on the front cover, signs with a paint pen and smears it, then asks for a $20 contribution to his charitable foundation. THAT is why it's risky to crack a 9.9 or 10. Is that an extreme example, full of hyperbole? Yes, but it's not exactly inconceivable.

 

There are any number of perfectly mundane events that may occur to give the book that tiny flaw that drops it from 9.9 to 9.8 or lower. It's risky, is all he's saying.

[Garlanda]

There is simply now way for them to do it. It could have been pressed by someone else prior to it being sent to them and they can't necessarily tell. How are they supposed to differentiate between the comics they KNOW have been pressed and the ones that they DONT know have been?

 

Absolutely right. If CGC marked which books were pressed by CCS, it would create a false impression that books that were not marked had never been pressed. Regardless of the facts, there would then be a perception that books marked as CCS Pressed were inferior and CCS would lose business. Maybe not a lot, but any business is too much to intentionally lose.

 

Personally, I have no problem with pressing either, but I do have a problem with books poorly pressed or pressed 26 times until they are no longer in their original dimensions. See also: Costanza, Cole Schave, etc. I can't imagine the long-term damage this is doing to the comics themselves, and hope that we don't someday live in a world where Hulk 181 is more expensive than Detective 27 just because all the Hulk 181s have rotten due to excess humidity exposure by amateur pressing. It is for this reason that I will voluntarily indicate that my books have been pressed once: in the hopes that when/if I sell them, the buyer doesn't try to to press them again and again. Maybe I'm setting myself up to make less money on the sale, but I hope future buyers will understand.

[bagofleas]

Yes, that is what I am saying. Any time you crack a comic, you are exposing it to more handling, often by multiple people. This is inherently risky no matter how you look at it. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

I believe if you were to safely crack and immediately resubmit a 9.9 or 10 without any further handling, outside of the graders of course, you would retain the grade every time.

 

But the usual reason for cracking CGC books is to get signatures on them and that means more handling by more people.

 

There are other reasons to crack as well, such as old labels being upgraded to new ones but you get the point.

 

Love the discussion guys!!

 

[Jeffro.]

The grade is not a mere "opinion" but more of a professional appraisal achieved through a near scientific system and set of processes by those who have been schooled in a specific skill.

 

As far as desirability playing a factor... by playing this card you completely render the CGC and what it stands for as worthless... for any company that is in league with a pressing company yet fails to make such denotations on comics they grade are anything but bias and impartial.

 

Remember... You are paying them for impartiality... and you are also paying them for information.

 

Are you telling me that you are excusing this non-disclosure practice simply because you feel comics that are pressed are less valuable or desirable than non-pressed comics?

 

If this is true... Then why press comics to begin with?

 

And if it is true that comics which have been pressed are less desirable... Then why would the CGC partner with a pressing and restoration company to begin with? Does that make sense to you?

 

SW3D

 

Why would CGC note on the label that a comic has been pressed when they don't consider it to be restoration?

[Garlanda]

There are other reasons to crack as well, such as old labels being upgraded to new ones but you get the point.

 

 

Tell me more about upgrading old labels to new ones. Is there any benefit to this, other than visual consistency? I have several of the old labels, including the old red modern labels.

[bagofleas]

There are a few reasons.

 

They have changed how they label comics from the old system to the new one, which is why you don't see red modern labels anymore.

 

One of the reasons is simply cosmetic. The new labels just look so much better. With the grade being so much larger and pronounced and the notes and creators sections far more legible, it jut makes for a better overall looking graded book.

 

Another reason is that CGC, leading up to the label change about 8 years ago, had made some changes in how they were grading Page Quality. Someone out there can correct if I'm wrong here, but if an old lableled comic has say Off White to White pages, there is a definite possibility that having it regraded with the new labeling can actually cause it to be bumped up to White Pages depending on the page quality due to the fine tuning CGC made to grading the pages when they went to the new labeling system. Possibly.

 

Yes, this means that CGC has fine tuned their grading procedures over the years, and now have it where their consistency is far better than the other companies out there.

 

And, to keep in line with the previous discussions here on this journal, it is less likely that a comic with the old label has previously been pressed, making it a definite candidate for it. It COULD have been pressed by someone, of course, but more than likely, it hasn't been.

 

So what it boils down to is this. If you have a graded comic book with the old CGC label in a 9.6 OW/W pages, a pressing and regrading could very well get it to a 9.8 WP with the new, and better looking, label.

 

Not a guarantee, of course, but it IS a possibility. It depends on the initial condition of the comic.

 

Of course, if it's a super valuable issue, you may not want to take any further risks with it even with an old label.

 

It's another one of those pesky personal choices. Sheesh! Nothing is yes or no around here, is it?

 

[SW3D]

Ignorance is bliss!

 

SW3D

[meshuggah]

There are other reasons to crack as well, such as old labels being upgraded to new ones but you get the point.

 

 

Tell me more about upgrading old labels to new ones. Is there any benefit to this, other than visual consistency? I have several of the old labels, including the old red modern labels.

 

I can't think of anything other than you like the new label more. I personally do but to resub it just for that seems like a waste of money to me. If you have disposable income for this, cool for you. Wish I did.

 

Now for the pressing stuff. I've mentioned before in one of SW3D's old journals how I feel. I agree with CGC that its not restoration. To denote it on the label would introduce a huge gap in consistency since countless books have been pressed by CCS and others to date.

 

I do think if you own a book that you know has been pressed and your selling it you should mention it. I would. I look at it as a courtesy. If you bought said book and didn't know it was pressed before then sent it off for pressing its more likely to be damaged due to the repeating of the process.

 

I do get that theres a flaw because I'm sure most have purchased slabbed or raw books that have been pressed and have no idea. But its the same flaw as listing pressing on the label. We can't truly know its been pressed unless we do it or someone tells us its been done.

 

Weren't we supposed to be bashing PGX on this or something?

 

 

Well it appears BOF listed some good reasons on the label change. Shows what I know.

[bagofleas]

Yeah, there's nothing like a good old down home PGX bashing!!