GRAIL Substitutes

[DocR]

Another example I use is what piece would you sell all your pieces to obtain if it came on the market? That is your Grail. If there is nothing that would entice you in this regard then you already own your Grail.

 

I definitely don't like this definition of a Grail! I think if a piece is your #1 most desired/coveted above all others, with reasonable attainability not even entering into the equation, that is sufficient criteria to be a true Grail. Let's say, hypothetically, that you own 99 out of your top 100 favorite pieces - is the #1 only your Grail if you are willing to sacrifice #2 through 100 in order to get #1? That makes no sense to me - the fact that #1 would trump any of #2 through 99 individually makes it your Grail in my book.

 

There is no piece of comic book art that I would trade the rest of my collection to obtain. As much as DD #181, Conan #24 and X-Men #94 mean to me, there is no way that any of these covers, or even all three of them together, could match the nostalgia and warm feelings I get from owning all of the hundreds of other pieces in my collection. Ruben would probably argue that means I have no true Grail. Again, I think that's way too strict a definition, and the idea that there can only be one true Grail for the entire hobby is an even worse idea - plenty of people don't really identify with or care for Superman/Action #1 or Spider-Man/AF #15. I can easily see how McSpidey #1 might resonate more to a lot of people than AF #15, while many of my generation would probably prefer something from the Bronze or Copper Ages (most of my all-time favorite comics and covers are from this era, not from the more historic Silver Age).

 

Taking it a step further, I can say with complete candidness that, as much as I admire the collections of some of the other top collectors out there, the collection that I have assembled through my own efforts and curated to my own exacting memories and nostalgic specifications I'm sure gives me much more pleasure than I would get owning anyone else's collection (putting monetary value aside). It's not that I own all my grails - a case can be made that I don't own any of them - it's that sometimes the whole is greater than both any individual part (even a "Grail") or even the sum of the parts.

 

Very well said and agreed!

[suspense39]

Any one of your herrimans would be a grail to me Gene!

[dgarthwaite-migration]

No GSX1 is on CAF. You're thinking of the hulk 181 interiors. Can't remember if the cover was in the fire or not.

Wait! That means everything you read on the internet isn't true.

 

http://blog.newsarama.com/2009/04/06/x-mens-len-wein-survives-house-fire/

 

" EXTREMELY BAD NEWS

 

Len Wein called this morning. More than half of his house burned down earlier today. Len and Chris Valada and Chris’s son, Michael, got out okay, but their beloved dog, Sheba, ran back inside and is gone. In addition to both bedrooms, the bathroom, and much of the office, what was burned first was the original art for the first Wolverine story, the cover of GIANT X-MEN #1 and other art pieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Susan and I will be over there as soon as I pick up my car today, and as soon as I’ve met the dental appointment we have scheduled. This is a major catastrophe for one of my oldest and closest friends. Like your Host, Len is a lifetime freelancer and, even though he remains a star of the comics world, even though he created Wolverine and Storm–among other characters–he goes from day to day earning a freelancer’s living, as do I…and these are frightening economic times for those of us out there, to paraphrase Arthur Miller, “on a few words and a shoeshine.”

 

Harlan"

 

DG

[comix4fun]

No GSX1 is on CAF. You're thinking of the hulk 181 interiors. Can't remember if the cover was in the fire or not.

Wait! That means everything you read on the internet isn't true.

 

http://blog.newsarama.com/2009/04/06/x-mens-len-wein-survives-house-fire/

 

" EXTREMELY BAD NEWS

 

Len Wein called this morning. More than half of his house burned down earlier today. Len and Chris Valada and Chris’s son, Michael, got out okay, but their beloved dog, Sheba, ran back inside and is gone. In addition to both bedrooms, the bathroom, and much of the office, what was burned first was the original art for the first Wolverine story, the cover of GIANT X-MEN #1 and other art pieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Susan and I will be over there as soon as I pick up my car today, and as soon as I’ve met the dental appointment we have scheduled. This is a major catastrophe for one of my oldest and closest friends. Like your Host, Len is a lifetime freelancer and, even though he remains a star of the comics world, even though he created Wolverine and Storm–among other characters–he goes from day to day earning a freelancer’s living, as do I…and these are frightening economic times for those of us out there, to paraphrase Arthur Miller, “on a few words and a shoeshine.”

 

Harlan"

 

DG

 

 

You're correct. What you read wasn't true. It was an error the day it was posted but that same quote keeps getting dredged up no matter how many times it gets corrected.

 

The downside of the internet...all information lasts forever, right and wrong.

[Bronty]

^ so does the hulk 181 cover exist or did it go up in flames too?

[dgarthwaite-migration]

No GSX1 is on CAF. You're thinking of the hulk 181 interiors. Can't remember if the cover was in the fire or not.

Wait! That means everything you read on the internet isn't true.

 

http://blog.newsarama.com/2009/04/06/x-mens-len-wein-survives-house-fire/

 

" EXTREMELY BAD NEWS

 

Len Wein called this morning. More than half of his house burned down earlier today. Len and Chris Valada and Chris’s son, Michael, got out okay, but their beloved dog, Sheba, ran back inside and is gone. In addition to both bedrooms, the bathroom, and much of the office, what was burned first was the original art for the first Wolverine story, the cover of GIANT X-MEN #1 and other art pieces worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Susan and I will be over there as soon as I pick up my car today, and as soon as I’ve met the dental appointment we have scheduled. This is a major catastrophe for one of my oldest and closest friends. Like your Host, Len is a lifetime freelancer and, even though he remains a star of the comics world, even though he created Wolverine and Storm–among other characters–he goes from day to day earning a freelancer’s living, as do I…and these are frightening economic times for those of us out there, to paraphrase Arthur Miller, “on a few words and a shoeshine.”

 

Harlan"

 

DG

 

 

You're correct. What you read wasn't true. It was an error the day it was posted but that same quote keeps getting dredged up no matter how many times it gets corrected.

 

The downside of the internet...all information lasts forever, right and wrong.

 

I think the original article should post a correction.

I guess it makes things worse that they are quoting Harlan Ellison.

 

DG

[delekkerste]

^ so does the hulk 181 cover exist or did it go up in flames too?

 

It did not burn up in the fire and allegedly exists (I don't know where, though).

[Terry Doyle]

I don't really feel comfortable with the idea of having, 'one true grail'.

 

My tastes in art are fairly eclectic for me to want to try pinpointing one single piece of art as being above all others.

 

Within my broad range of artwork interests, I do own a number of (what I'd call) grail-like items (standout examples), from different genres.

 

For me, (comic-strip) artwork is like music. I can sit endlessly listening to a wide variety of favourite tracks. So, with artwork, I think it's all a bit silly trying to constrain my interests into picking one single piece of art, when there's just so much to enjoy and take pleasure in.

[batman_fan]

For me, this is my one true grail. I distinctly remember buying it off the newsstand as a kid and loved the huge image of the panther. I know a lot of people say "yeah, but its a reprint", but at the time, I hadn't read a copy of Daredevil 69 and the cover isn't a reprint. The artwork on this cover is what inspired me to want to be a comic book artist which I planned to do all the way up until my second year in college when electrical engineering won out. I have a bunch of other artwork I love, but nothing comes close to this one.

 

 

 

[Terry Doyle]

I've noticed through the years a number of OA people get upset over the use of the term grail.

 

Personally I have no one true grail that I would give up everything for.

 

There are probably a couple dozen pieces I would love to have that to me are "grail type" pieces though. It would be difficult to rank one over another. I own a couple of them. One of them (that I don't own yet) is actually a panel page from a copper age comic- it sums up a lot about that sentimental favorite series to me.

 

I'm not exactly upset by anyone claiming to have a 'one true grail'. Just think that there's too much out there to enjoy and collect to try to limit myself to just one piece (like you, I can list dozens of 'grail-like' items I'd love to own . . . and within the genres I collect, I've landed quite a few such examples).

 

One thing I often see, which makes me chuckle, is that collectors will claim to have landed their 'grail' one week and a short time later, will follow-up with a "circumstances force me to offer my grail up for re-sale" type mail.

[suspense39]

I've noticed through the years a number of OA people get upset over the use of the term grail.

 

Personally I have no one true grail that I would give up everything for.

 

There are probably a couple dozen pieces I would love to have that to me are "grail type" pieces though. It would be difficult to rank one over another. I own a couple of them. One of them (that I don't own yet) is actually a panel page from a copper age comic- it sums up a lot about that sentimental favorite series to me.

 

I'm not exactly upset by anyone claiming to have a 'one true grail'. Just think that there's so much out there to enjoy and collect to try to limit myself to just one piece (like you, I can list dozens of 'grail-like' items I'd love to own . . . and within the genres I collect, I've landed quite a few such examples).

 

One thing I often see, which makes me chuckle, is that collectors will claim to have landed their 'grail' one week and a short time later, will follow-up with a "circumstances force me to offer my grail up for re-sale" type mail.

 

Ha ha, that's one my favorites : )

[Bronty]

^ so does the hulk 181 cover exist or did it go up in flames too?

 

It did not burn up in the fire and allegedly exists (I don't know where, though).

\

 

Thx! That would be one sweet piece. Herb Trimpe never looked so good!

[adamstrange]

I can say with complete candidness that, as much as I admire the collections of some of the other top collectors out there, the collection that I have assembled through my own efforts and curated to my own exacting memories and nostalgic specifications I'm sure gives me much more pleasure than I would get owning anyone else's collection (putting monetary value aside). It's not that I own all my grails - a case can be made that I don't own any of them - it's that sometimes the whole is greater than both any individual part (even a "Grail") or even the sum of the parts

That's a wonderful accomplishment and a goal that most collectors, if they have the means, should aspire to.

[Catwoman_Fan]

 

One thing I often see, which makes me chuckle, is that collectors will claim to have landed their 'grail' one week and a short time later, will follow-up with a "circumstances force me to offer my grail up for re-sale" type mail.

 

 

My friends get a kick out of this, glad others notice it. Certain collectors live this to a T, posting their grail acquisitions one day, and offering them for sale weeks to months later.

 

 

The word "grail" now seemed to me as authentic as "soulmate," a quixotic representation of your immediate desires. As one experiences life, and changes, words and beliefs no longer hold their absolute meaning. Your "grail" for the last 30 years can become meaningless in the face of children, faith, or other epiphanies. So buy what you see now and enjoy it while you can. You never know how long this grail will really remain meaningful in life's mercurial journey.

 

This is a great parallel. I remember kids in college always swooning over finding their soulmates, implying they would stay together for life. They were romantics, but not always dedicated couples, sometimes just looking for the next thrill.

 

 

Taking it a step further, I can say with complete candidness that, as much as I admire the collections of some of the other top collectors out there, the collection that I have assembled through my own efforts and curated to my own exacting memories and nostalgic specifications I'm sure gives me much more pleasure than I would get owning anyone else's collection (putting monetary value aside). It's not that I own all my grails - a case can be made that I don't own any of them - it's that sometimes the whole is greater than both any individual part (even a "Grail") or even the sum of the parts.

 

Well said!

[jick]

My grail would be art from my birthdate, or covers from October 1977.

 

A substitute would be a recreation by the original inker.

 

Here is Flash 254 by Joe Rubinstein from the only page where he ever inked Dillin - it turned out pretty good:

 

http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=890565

 

 

As for other grails, I do enjoy recreating a page myself every now and then - which I know I cannot afford and which I have not seen floating in the open market (like CAF or HA Archives) because either they don't exist, they are locked up, or they were made purely digitally.

[Terry Doyle]

 

The word "grail" now seemed to me as authentic as "soulmate," a quixotic representation of your immediate desires. As one experiences life, and changes, words and beliefs no longer hold their absolute meaning. Your "grail" for the last 30 years can become meaningless in the face of children, faith, or other epiphanies. So buy what you see now and enjoy it while you can. You never know how long this grail will really remain meaningful in life's mercurial journey.

 

Very well put.

 

Over the course of the past ten years my priorities in life changed. In order to make some big lifestyle changes, that would have a positive impact and benefit to my family, I scrutinized my artwork collection and gradually sold off a lot of high-end stuff (to help fund my plans).

 

I still retain a collection to be proud of, with a number of grail-like items, but it's at the back of my mind that the clock's ticking away and I don't want to take my artwork to the grave. Sorry if I'm sounding morbid . . . I prefer to think I'm being realistic!

 

I'm still actively collecting artwork, but nothing high-end (there's no short of good pieces, at affordable prices - despite what others would have you believe). Even if I could afford to pursue high-end grail-like items, I think I could put the cash to better use.

[delekkerste]

I still retain a collection to be proud of, with a number of grail-like items, but it's at the back of my mind that the clock's ticking away and I don't want to take my artwork to the grave. Sorry if I'm sounding morbid . . . I prefer to think I'm being realistic!

 

I think that's very realistic - peoples' priorities in life can, do and should change over time. 8 or 9 years ago, one collector I know asked if I would keep him in mind if I ever decided to part with a certain piece. Well, I hit him up recently to see if he was still interested and, guess what - he's sending his daughter to college next year and he's not only no longer interested in buying anything, he's planning on selling off a chunk of his collection! Call me crazy, but I'm guessing that Arnold Schwarzenegger probably isn't still looking for a Frazetta 25 years on either.

 

As far as mortality and morbidity, I actually had a very similar exchange with a fellow collector recently, where I told him this:

 

I seem to have a greater sense of mortality (or maybe just self-awareness) than most other collectors - I'm probably in the 8th inning now of my collecting career. I've long said that I'd probably be done collecting by age 50, and it looks like it will probably be sooner than that. There are other things I want to do with my life and spend my money on than OA - I'm happy to still do it in my early 40s now, but the further I get away from that, the more I'll want to focus on other things. Which means I'm largely getting it out of my system now as well as picking it up while I still have a long time to enjoy it.

 

I'm sure that, the older I get, the less and less important it will seem to ever "have to own" a "grail" or otherwise most-wanted piece of artwork. Which is why it cracks me up sometimes when people tell me things like, "I value this piece of artwork at $X, because I've got a standing offer from so-and-so to buy it at that price" (as if that bid will always be there). Well, time passes by quickly, and interests, circumstances and priorities change during that period. For years, I bugged a certain collector about selling me one of my all-time favorite covers, for which I'm confident I would have paid substantially more than anyone else. If he offered it to me now, I'd pay market price at best, and 10 years from now I probably won't have any interest at all, unless it's for a knock-down price.

[disruptive_one]

No such thing as a grail substitute for me. Example: there is only one Amazing Spiderman 86 cover. A page from the same book won't satisfy me. Would I buy it as a placeholder till I get the actual cover? Possibly. But I wouldn't value it equally. I would continue to keep an eye on all of the auctions every year. I would continue to check dealer inventory.

[delekkerste]

No such thing as a grail substitute for me. Example: there is only one Amazing Spiderman 86 cover. A page from the same book won't satisfy me. Would I buy it as a placeholder till I get the actual cover? Possibly. But I wouldn't value it equally. I would continue to keep an eye on all of the auctions every year. I would continue to check dealer inventory.

 

Do you mean you would keep an eye out for a potential placeholder page even though it wouldn't satisfy you? Or do you mean you're constantly checking auctions and dealer inventory to see if the ASM #86 cover shows up? Because it's been on ComicArtFans.com for more than 3 years (it's owned by a Boardie):

 

ASM #86 Cover on CAF

[disruptive_one]

No such thing as a grail substitute for me. Example: there is only one Amazing Spiderman 86 cover. A page from the same book won't satisfy me. Would I buy it as a placeholder till I get the actual cover? Possibly. But I wouldn't value it equally. I would continue to keep an eye on all of the auctions every year. I would continue to check dealer inventory.

 

Do you mean you would keep an eye out for a potential placeholder page even though it wouldn't satisfy you? Or do you mean you're constantly checking auctions and dealer inventory to see if the ASM #86 cover shows up? Because it's been on ComicArtFans.com for more than 3 years (it's owned by a Boardie):

 

ASM #86 Cover on CAF

I'm considering making a strong run at that ASM #62 page in the heritage auction; but I would still rather have the cover obviously.

 

Thanks for the info dude. Good looking out right there.

 

I have actually noticed. And I have contacted him. He informed me that it wasn't for sale. Nothing I can do about that. Just have to hope luck will be on my side someday. Maybe he will see something he wants more and will decide that he needs to generate funds to make it obtainable? Some scenario like that is what I will wait for.

I still retain a collection to be proud of, with a number of grail-like items, but it's at the back of my mind that the clock's ticking away and I don't want to take my artwork to the grave. Sorry if I'm sounding morbid . . . I prefer to think I'm being realistic!

Not morbid at all. I think about things like that too. I don't really have anyone that will take care of any of my possessions when I am gone. Everything is probably going straight to Ebay.