Quantity of surviving copies of average golden age comics

[hoknes]

Wanted to get everyone's opinions on the likely average count of the average golden age comic book.

In most reports the key golden age books have been estimated to have between 75 and 150 copies of each in existence?

Obviously it varies book to book but do you guys have an opinion on this

and does it change over time?

Has anyone noticed time periods become scarcer or more common than years around it? Did paper drives or anything affect the number of surviving copies?

 

For example how common is the average 1949 DC to a 1942 DC ?

 

Or is it likely a general slow but steady improvement of quantity as we get up to the silver age ?

 

Appreciate hearing some debate and opinion thanks!

[Timely]

I believe it is a general slow but steady rise of quantity as we get up to the 1950's. By the mid to late 1950's the number of surviving copies goes up significantly. Then it goes up exponentially dramatically by 1965.

[Sqeggs]

Just for fun, I looked up the census numbers on 1960s Marvel keys. A couple of them surprised me:

 

FF 1 1961 1,367

IH 1 1962 990

AF 15 1962 2,087

Avengers 1 1963 2,034

ASM 1 1963 2,379

DD 1 1964 2,296

IM 1 1968 2,850

 

The relative number of AF 15s is a little surprising. I wouldn't think it would have had a huge print run, so I assume the number of copies that survived may have to do with people holding on to copies rather than disposing of them. Maybe census numbers are also inflated because of the incentive to slab even low-grade copies and by the number of copies that have been cracked, pressed, and resubmitted.

 

The low numbers on the Hulk may reflect a lower print run but, in any case, it does stand out as being the scarcest of the Marvel keys.

 

Before looking, I would have guessed that the IM numbers would have been even higher. I know I bought five or six copies off the stands and I assume others would have done the same.

[The Black Hand ®]

*UPDATE* I'm sorry, I thought the title said "Quality".

 

 

There are a few different ways of looking at this. Dealers will tell you that all these GA comics, stewing in their acid juices, will survive all of us. I think that on a daily basis, these books degrade. Even a 9.8 with white pages of a book printed in 1939, is more fragile than one printed today. We've all heard about how to store comics in a cool, dark, dry and stable environment. We've heard of and might employ ways to neutralize the acids in the comic book paper, but once that chemical process has started, the race is on. We all know the chances we take every time we pull a book out of a mylar and put one back in. Spine splits. Detaching staples. tears. Residue from our fingers. Some people say not to worry, but when you consider what we've paid for some of these books, it might be good to worry a bit more. There's a reason they call it ephemera.

You take your average house and stick a CGC 7.0 with Cream to off white pages and stick it in a closet in the middle of the house for 12 years, will the paper have degraded any?

I think all of these books are ticking time bombs of decaying paper just waiting to flake off into little tiny pieces. So if anyone is holding on to a Pep 22 in vg or better, rest assured that book is doomed and you should sell it to me for half guide as soon as possible.

[rjpb]

Just for fun, I looked up the census numbers on 1960s Marvel keys. A couple of them surprised me:

 

FF 1 1961 1,367

IH 1 1962 990

AF 15 1962 2,087

Avengers 1 1963 2,034

ASM 1 1963 2,379

DD 1 1964 2,296

IM 1 1968 2,850

 

The relative number of AF 15s is a little surprising. I wouldn't think it would have had a huge print run, so I assume the number of copies that survived may have to do with people holding on to copies rather than disposing of them. Maybe census numbers are also inflated because of the incentive to slab even low-grade copies and by the number of copies that have been cracked, pressed, and resubmitted.

 

The low numbers on the Hulk may reflect a lower print run but, in any case, it does stand out as being the scarcest of the Marvel keys.

 

Before looking, I would have guessed that the IM numbers would have been even higher. I know I bought five or six copies off the stands and I assume others would have done the same.

 

I haven't checked Iron Man #1, but a little more than half of AF 15's slabbed in the census are in 3.5 or less ( including restored copies), I imagine the number of unslabbed IM #1's dwarfs the number of unslabbed AF 15s.

 

In the early 70s, when young teenagers could still afford to buy Marvel keys if they saved their money, for my friends and I , AF 15 seemed the hardest of the Marvel keys to find, but I'm guessing this was more due to a greater reluctance to part with the book among collectors, than actual scarcity. It wasn't yet so valuable that many would feel the need to sell it to use the money for something else, and Spider-man was by far the most collected Marvel character then as now. Still, I would have thought there would be far more ASM 1s in relation to AF 15s in the census, as that book seemed far more common back then.

 

I'm not convinced that the census is that accurate a tool for extrapolating comparative extant copies of even major keys from a certain era, especially for low to mid grade copies, and when it comes to comparing 61-63 Marvel keys to later less valuable books, it's useless.

 

 

[ciorac]

Just for fun, I looked up the census numbers on 1960s Marvel keys. A couple of them surprised me:

 

FF 1 1961 1,367

IH 1 1962 990

AF 15 1962 2,087

Avengers 1 1963 2,034

ASM 1 1963 2,379

DD 1 1964 2,296

IM 1 1968 2,850

 

The relative number of AF 15s is a little surprising. I wouldn't think it would have had a huge print run, so I assume the number of copies that survived may have to do with people holding on to copies rather than disposing of them. Maybe census numbers are also inflated because of the incentive to slab even low-grade copies and by the number of copies that have been cracked, pressed, and resubmitted.

 

The low numbers on the Hulk may reflect a lower print run but, in any case, it does stand out as being the scarcest of the Marvel keys.

 

Before looking, I would have guessed that the IM numbers would have been even higher. I know I bought five or six copies off the stands and I assume others would have done the same.

 

I haven't checked Iron Man #1, but a little more than half of AF 15's slabbed in the census are in 3.5 or less ( including restored copies), I imagine the number of unslabbed IM #1's dwarfs the number of unslabbed AF 15s.

 

In the early 70s, when young teenagers could still afford to buy Marvel keys if they saved their money, for my friends and I , AF 15 seemed the hardest of the Marvel keys to find, but I'm guessing this was more due to a greater reluctance to part with the book among collectors, than actual scarcity. It wasn't yet so valuable that many would feel the need to sell it to use the money for something else, and Spider-man was by far the most collected Marvel character then as now. Still, I would have thought there would be far more ASM 1s in relation to AF 15s in the census, as that book seemed far more common back then.

 

I'm not convinced that the census is that accurate a tool for extrapolating comparative extant copies of even major keys from a certain era, especially for low to mid grade copies, and when it comes to comparing 61-63 Marvel keys to later less valuable books, it's useless.

 

 

I agree with you on the IM 1 "apparent' disparity. There is really no incentive to have that book graded unless it is higher grade. So there are plenty of them running around in the raw

[Rip]

Just for fun, I looked up the census numbers on 1960s Marvel keys. A couple of them surprised me:

 

FF 1 1961 1,367

IH 1 1962 990

AF 15 1962 2,087

Avengers 1 1963 2,034

ASM 1 1963 2,379

DD 1 1964 2,296

IM 1 1968 2,850

 

The relative number of AF 15s is a little surprising. I wouldn't think it would have had a huge print run, so I assume the number of copies that survived may have to do with people holding on to copies rather than disposing of them. Maybe census numbers are also inflated because of the incentive to slab even low-grade copies and by the number of copies that have been cracked, pressed, and resubmitted.

 

The low numbers on the Hulk may reflect a lower print run but, in any case, it does stand out as being the scarcest of the Marvel keys.

 

Before looking, I would have guessed that the IM numbers would have been even higher. I know I bought five or six copies off the stands and I assume others would have done the same.

 

I haven't checked Iron Man #1, but a little more than half of AF 15's slabbed in the census are in 3.5 or less ( including restored copies), I imagine the number of unslabbed IM #1's dwarfs the number of unslabbed AF 15s.

 

In the early 70s, when young teenagers could still afford to buy Marvel keys if they saved their money, for my friends and I , AF 15 seemed the hardest of the Marvel keys to find, but I'm guessing this was more due to a greater reluctance to part with the book among collectors, than actual scarcity. It wasn't yet so valuable that many would feel the need to sell it to use the money for something else, and Spider-man was by far the most collected Marvel character then as now. Still, I would have thought there would be far more ASM 1s in relation to AF 15s in the census, as that book seemed far more common back then.

 

I'm not convinced that the census is that accurate a tool for extrapolating comparative extant copies of even major keys from a certain era, especially for low to mid grade copies, and when it comes to comparing 61-63 Marvel keys to later less valuable books, it's useless.

 

 

I agree with you on the IM 1 "apparent' disparity. There is really no incentive to have that book graded unless it is higher grade. So there are plenty of them running around in the raw

 

Agreed, I've had 5 copies myself of IM 1. Only slabbed 1.

 

I think the census puts us in the ball park of showing us what the toughest Marvel keys are. Of the major keys (Not counting TTA 27) I think Hulk 1 is the toughest Marvel key followed by JIM 83 and FF 1, then ToS 39.

 

 

[mrmyst]

Wanted to get everyone's opinions on the likely average count of the average golden age comic book.

In most reports the key golden age books have been estimated to have between 75 and 150 copies of each in existence?

Obviously it varies book to book but do you guys have an opinion on this

and does it change over time?

Has anyone noticed time periods become scarcer or more common than years around it? Did paper drives or anything affect the number of surviving copies?

 

For example how common is the average 1949 DC to a 1942 DC ?

 

Or is it likely a general slow but steady improvement of quantity as we get up to the silver age ?

 

Appreciate hearing some debate and opinion thanks!

 

75 to 150? To what reports are you referring?

[rjpb]

I believe it is a general slow but steady rise of quantity as we get up to the 1950's. By the mid to late 1950's the number of surviving copies goes up significantly. Then it goes up exponentially dramatically by 1965.

 

I used to wonder if the toll taken by wartime paper drives had been exaggerated, but it does seem that in general 1944 and later books are noticeably more common than 1939-1943 books. Conversely, the infamous comic book bonfires of the early 50s don't seem to have taken a significant toll on the surviving number books in the genres most targeted, crime and horror.

[vaillant]

Wanted to get everyone's opinions on the likely average count of the average golden age comic book.

In most reports the key golden age books have been estimated to have between 75 and 150 copies of each in existence?

Obviously it varies book to book but do you guys have an opinion on this

and does it change over time?

Surely there are more, otherwise they would all be Gerber 6 (or above) in scarcity (and they aren’t).

[Rip]

I believe it is a general slow but steady rise of quantity as we get up to the 1950's. By the mid to late 1950's the number of surviving copies goes up significantly. Then it goes up exponentially dramatically by 1965.

 

I used to wonder if the toll taken by wartime paper drives had been exaggerated, but it does seem that in general 1944 and later books are noticeably more common than 1939-1943 books. Conversely, the infamous comic book bonfires of the early 50s don't seem to have taken a significant toll on the surviving number books in the genres most targeted, crime and horror.

 

I think the bonfires had the opposite effect. There are more of those 50's horror title books as a strong fan base quickly started and people quickly realized they should be saved.

 

 

[Sqeggs]

I believe it is a general slow but steady rise of quantity as we get up to the 1950's. By the mid to late 1950's the number of surviving copies goes up significantly. Then it goes up exponentially dramatically by 1965.

 

I used to wonder if the toll taken by wartime paper drives had been exaggerated, but it does seem that in general 1944 and later books are noticeably more common than 1939-1943 books. Conversely, the infamous comic book bonfires of the early 50s don't seem to have taken a significant toll on the surviving number books in the genres most targeted, crime and horror.

 

There was an interesting thread a year or two ago on wartime paper drives. I had read somewhere that they were intended mainly to let people on the home front feel they were participating in the war effort and that most of the newspapers, comics, etc. were stored and later disposed of without being used. Someone made a convincing argument, though, that paper had wartime uses -- mainly in munition manufacturing, I think -- so the paper collected in these drives actually was used.

 

I suppose some copies of Action 1 and Det 27 ended up being dropped over Berlin and Tokyo after being transmogrified.

[mrmyst]

I believe it is a general slow but steady rise of quantity as we get up to the 1950's. By the mid to late 1950's the number of surviving copies goes up significantly. Then it goes up exponentially dramatically by 1965.

 

I used to wonder if the toll taken by wartime paper drives had been exaggerated, but it does seem that in general 1944 and later books are noticeably more common than 1939-1943 books. Conversely, the infamous comic book bonfires of the early 50s don't seem to have taken a significant toll on the surviving number books in the genres most targeted, crime and horror.

 

I think the bonfires had the opposite effect. There are more of those 50's horror title books as a strong fan base quickly started and people quickly realized they should be saved.

 

 

What makes you think that?

[Pat Calhoun]

interesting. comics fandom modeled itself after SF fandom. so maybe horror (+ sf = fantasy)- ok fantasy was the most collected genre (at least back then). As far back as 1949 you had Avon Fantasy Reader edited by Wollheim featuring classic fantasy reprints. Were there similar collections for western-crime-romance? not that I'm trying to garner glory as a big sf fan, but it's an idea...

[Pat Calhoun]

it's hard to over-estimate how prevalent SF was in early silver age. DC staff was heavy into pulp vets. Flash & GL got much SF added to their origins etc. The Marvel monsters (that led to Hulk, Thing, even Spidey X-Men etc) were basically SF...

[Rip]

I believe it is a general slow but steady rise of quantity as we get up to the 1950's. By the mid to late 1950's the number of surviving copies goes up significantly. Then it goes up exponentially dramatically by 1965.

 

I used to wonder if the toll taken by wartime paper drives had been exaggerated, but it does seem that in general 1944 and later books are noticeably more common than 1939-1943 books. Conversely, the infamous comic book bonfires of the early 50s don't seem to have taken a significant toll on the surviving number books in the genres most targeted, crime and horror.

 

I think the bonfires had the opposite effect. There are more of those 50's horror title books as a strong fan base quickly started and people quickly realized they should be saved.

 

 

What makes you think that?

 

From talking to people who collected in the 50's and 60's. Many of them talk about hiding the books or tucking them away thinking that they were something forbidden and to be treasured. I think thats one of the reasons there are so many EC's running around.

 

They also had a strong fan base earlier on. One of the earliest strong collectors core with fanzines and clubs for those kind of books. Not all horror books fall into this group, but certainly the EC's do.

[miraclemet]

Just for fun, I looked up the census numbers on 1960s Marvel keys. A couple of them surprised me:

 

FF 1 1961 1,367

IH 1 1962 990

AF 15 1962 2,087

Avengers 1 1963 2,034

ASM 1 1963 2,379

DD 1 1964 2,296

IM 1 1968 2,850

 

 

one thing to remember when checking the census.

 

You've listed the books that are far and away most likely to get a press and resub in hopes to bump the grade even .5

 

If the owner doesnt return the label with the resubmit, the old copy doesnt come off the census. And it seems like this is the norm vs the exception.

 

As a result the census numbers for SA keys is inflated beyond the actual number of slabbed copies out there.

[ComicConnoisseur]

I believe it is a general slow but steady rise of quantity as we get up to the 1950's. By the mid to late 1950's the number of surviving copies goes up significantly. Then it goes up exponentially dramatically by 1965.

 

I used to wonder if the toll taken by wartime paper drives had been exaggerated, but it does seem that in general 1944 and later books are noticeably more common than 1939-1943 books. Conversely, the infamous comic book bonfires of the early 50s don't seem to have taken a significant toll on the surviving number books in the genres most targeted, crime and horror.

That`s what I heard as well that 1939-1943 are hard to come by because of WW II wartime paper drives, then in the 1950s you had the EC horror comics getting burned in bonfires because of the Fredrick Wertham hysteria.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Just for fun, I looked up the census numbers on 1960s Marvel keys. A couple of them surprised me:

 

FF 1 1961 1,367

IH 1 1962 990

AF 15 1962 2,087

Avengers 1 1963 2,034

ASM 1 1963 2,379

DD 1 1964 2,296

IM 1 1968 2,850

 

 

one thing to remember when checking the census.

 

You've listed the books that are far and away most likely to get a press and resub in hopes to bump the grade even .5

 

If the owner doesnt return the label with the resubmit, the old copy doesnt come off the census. And it seems like this is the norm vs the exception.

 

As a result the census numbers for SA keys is inflated beyond the actual number of slabbed copies out there.

Even so all of those are very low numbers when we are talking about characters who are now seen by millions of people every year on the big screen.

[Sqeggs]

Just for fun, I looked up the census numbers on 1960s Marvel keys. A couple of them surprised me:

 

FF 1 1961 1,367

IH 1 1962 990

AF 15 1962 2,087

Avengers 1 1963 2,034

ASM 1 1963 2,379

DD 1 1964 2,296

IM 1 1968 2,850

 

 

one thing to remember when checking the census.

 

You've listed the books that are far and away most likely to get a press and resub in hopes to bump the grade even .5

 

If the owner doesnt return the label with the resubmit, the old copy doesnt come off the census. And it seems like this is the norm vs the exception.

 

As a result the census numbers for SA keys is inflated beyond the actual number of slabbed copies out there.

 

Actually, if you read the whole post, I did mention that point, which is most relevant with respect to AF 15 -- the biggest money book on the list. (thumbs u