Did Batman completely dominate the Bronze Age?

[joe_collector]

I don't think think the OP was referring to sales at the time of publication, but rather from a collecting standpoint today.

 

Sure, but that comes down to one thing: NEAL ADAMS COVERS

 

Have you people even read those books? The Adams stuff is pretty good, but the rest of it is pure junk that makes a 3rd-tier Marvel look great. Other than the Adams issues (especially the Man-Bat issues, which are pretty cool), the Batman/TEC 70's Batman-related stories will rot your brain they are so freakishly and amateurishly terrible.

 

Seriously, if any other artist did the Batman covers, this thread would not exist.

[joe_collector]

Batman dominated the DC BA, but not the BA in general. Regarding importance of key issues, the X-Men dominated the BA. If your talking quantity, of important issues, then maybe its closer.

 

1) Amazing Spider-man

2) X-Men

[kimik]

Yeah--I'd throw Batman 217 in there as a key as well, even if it's what--technically 1969?

 

cover (albeit Neal Adams) but a major turning point.

 

The story is a solid (and serious) detective mystery but the secondary storyline involves Grayson effectively quitting as Robin and leaving to go to college, while Bruce closes down the Batcave to move to Wayne Tower--in order to be based closer to downtown Gotham to more effectively combat the new era of white collar crime.

 

A 9.4 copy sold on Heritage last night for over $800.

 

Batman #217 has always been a tougher book in HG which is why it fetches bigger $$$. It is an underrated cover. (thumbs u

[kimik]

I don't think think the OP was referring to sales at the time of publication, but rather from a collecting standpoint today.

 

Sure, but that comes down to one thing: NEAL ADAMS COVERS

 

Have you people even read those books? The Adams stuff is pretty good, but the rest of it is pure junk that makes a 3rd-tier Marvel look great. Other than the Adams issues (especially the Man-Bat issues, which are pretty cool), the Batman/TEC 70's Batman-related stories will rot your brain they are so freakishly and amateurishly terrible.

 

Seriously, if any other artist did the Batman covers, this thread would not exist.

 

The O'Neil Adams run on both GL and Batman was good reading. There are some decent storylines in the late 70s as well, but a lot of the other stuff was definitely weak.

 

Mind you, the same could be said for comics in general as there was a lot of unreadable drek after the early 70s creative peak. Outside of the new X-Men run, there was not much worth reading post 1975 from any publisher.

 

[Point Five]

 

Batman 222 - why do you consider this a bat-key?

 

Been asking myself that question for a while now. I can understand if it was the real Beatles, but it's only a spoof. Although activity is starting to finally slow a bit, the book has been a real hoarder's delight and prices are mind numbingly high against all logic. I can understand if this was simply a case of hi-grade scarcity, but even low grades sell really well. If this book is really a key, it's completely collector driven.

I love Batman #222... it's one of my favorite BA books. It's a cool, wacky convergence of Batman and the late-period Beatles (the use of the "Paul is dead" storyline neatly date-stamps the book), has a great cover by Adams, and IMO the story is actually quite fun, not simply a throwaway. I've got 3 or 4 copies myself.

 

 

[white_rushin]

Full disclosure up front, its been a dozen years since I've picked up a bat-book, and there's no denying Batman has been a solid character throughout the Bronze Age so when I read your list of Bat-keys, I gave it some thought and I have a few questions regarding why some of these issues are considered bat-keys and in what collecting era they reside:

 

Batman 222 - why do you consider this a bat-key?

 

Batman 237 - Rutlan VT story...this issue, along with other in-house references to Rutland VT Halloween stories are now considered key?

 

Batman 244 - does Overstreet consider this a classic cover?

 

Batman 258 - why is the 1st appearance of Arkham considered a bat-key? By comparision, Peter Parker spent a lot of time in the Bronze Age at Empire State University. Should the 1st appearance of ESU be considered a Spidey-key???

 

Batman 357, 368, 386 - kinda late in the game for Bronze, I think. Batman 357 was published in 1983. I think these are Copper Age books.

 

Tec 471 and 474 - what makes them bat-keys?

 

 

I wasn't really trying to make claims, but these books are ones that are currently priced like key books... aka they're priced much higher than the books surrounding them. I agree with you in a lot of ways when you question why a lot of the above are keys, some of those questions I've been asking myself.

 

I don't think think the OP was referring to sales at the time of publication, but rather from a collecting standpoint today. There's very few DC books from that early BA that has so many keys related, either directly or indirectly, to a single character. Adams cover may not have appreciably helped sales back in the day, but they are definitely driving the sales of these books now.

 

Bingo! Perhaps my topic title was a bit misleading, but what you said above is word for word what I was thinking.

[otherworldsj33]

I don't think the Spider-man keys had the significance of the X-Men Keys, Gwen and Punisher notwithstanding. I would do:

 

1- X-Men

2 - Spider-man

3 - Batman/Detective

4 - Conan (by virtue of 181)

5 - Green Lantern

Numbers 6-10 I really didn't give much thought. Maybe Swamp Thing, Ghost Rider, Daredevil (Miller), Iron Man (Thanos, alcohol issues), and Hulk, by virtue of 181.

 

Honorable mentions:

Luke Cage

TOD

Dark Mansion of FL

Kirby's 4th world taken as a whole

 

 

[jjonahjameson1]

I don't think the Spider-man keys had the significance of the X-Men Keys, Gwen and Punisher notwithstanding. I would do:

 

1- X-Men

2 - Spider-man

3 - Batman/Detective

4 - Conan (by virtue of 181)

5 - Green Lantern

Numbers 6-10 I really didn't give much thought. Maybe Swamp Thing, Ghost Rider, Daredevil (Miller), Iron Man (Thanos, alcohol issues), and Hulk, by virtue of 181.

 

Honorable mentions:

Luke Cage

TOD

Dark Mansion of FL

Kirby's 4th world taken as a whole

 

 

Re: Spider-Man at #2 on your list, I can sort of understand your position if we limit the discussion only to ASM. However, the Bronze Age also launched MTU, Spidey Super Stories, and Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man.

Also, not sure when your definition of Bronze Age begins, but there are some additional minor keys such as ASM 101 and 102, and to a lesser extent, ASM 124. I won't even mention the clone saga because some things are better left alone.

[Zonker]

The Adams cover mania is a fairly recent trend. Back in the day, a premium was placed on books where he did the interior art. I believe that's the reason 237 is more sought after than the surrounding issues, moreso than the cover image or the Rutland VT storyline.

 

And yes, there was a lot of drek published in the bat-books, but there are also some hidden gems, even apart from the Neal Adams illustrated issues. Most of the stories Denny O'Neal wrote are worth a read. See for example the Christmas issues in Batman 239 & 247, or the Col Sulphur story in 241 and it's sequel in 248, both Batman/Shadow crossovers in 253 & 259. Over in Detective there was the Key Largo inspired story in 414 and the Creeper x-over in 418. All of the Archie Goodwin edited Detectives 437-443 are excellent. Post Goodwin some highlights include Walt Simonson in 450, the Mike Grell vampire story in 455, the Crime Alley origin retelling in 457, the Ellery Queen inspired 459. Then the classic Steve Englehart/Marshall Rogers run hits in 471-476. Good stuff all.

[rjrjr]

Batman dominated the DC BA, but not the BA in general. Regarding importance of key issues, the X-Men dominated the BA. If your talking quantity, of important issues, then maybe its closer.

 

Not if the BA ended in 1979.

[otherworldsj33]

Although there were a large quantity of Spider-man books, there were more keys, and a superior over all quality to the X-Men books.

[the blob]

I don't think think the OP was referring to sales at the time of publication, but rather from a collecting standpoint today.

 

Sure, but that comes down to one thing: NEAL ADAMS COVERS

 

Have you people even read those books? The Adams stuff is pretty good, but the rest of it is pure junk that makes a 3rd-tier Marvel look great. Other than the Adams issues (especially the Man-Bat issues, which are pretty cool), the Batman/TEC 70's Batman-related stories will rot your brain they are so freakishly and amateurishly terrible.

 

Seriously, if any other artist did the Batman covers, this thread would not exist.

 

Didn't Kaluta and Wrightson do some nice Batman covers too during this period?

[Maccai3]

I don't think think the OP was referring to sales at the time of publication, but rather from a collecting standpoint today.

 

Sure, but that comes down to one thing: NEAL ADAMS COVERS

 

Have you people even read those books? The Adams stuff is pretty good, but the rest of it is pure junk that makes a 3rd-tier Marvel look great. Other than the Adams issues (especially the Man-Bat issues, which are pretty cool), the Batman/TEC 70's Batman-related stories will rot your brain they are so freakishly and amateurishly terrible.

 

Seriously, if any other artist did the Batman covers, this thread would not exist.

 

Didn't Kaluta and Wrightson do some nice Batman covers too during this period?

 

the Englehart/Rogers run was epic too, Len Wein did some great work, Nick Cardy did some good covers and Aparo too

[Brian48]

I don't think think the OP was referring to sales at the time of publication, but rather from a collecting standpoint today.

 

Sure, but that comes down to one thing: NEAL ADAMS COVERS

 

Have you people even read those books? The Adams stuff is pretty good, but the rest of it is pure junk that makes a 3rd-tier Marvel look great. Other than the Adams issues (especially the Man-Bat issues, which are pretty cool), the Batman/TEC 70's Batman-related stories will rot your brain they are so freakishly and amateurishly terrible.

 

Seriously, if any other artist did the Batman covers, this thread would not exist.

 

Didn't Kaluta and Wrightson do some nice Batman covers too during this period?

 

Wrightson did a nice one for Tec 425 only. Kaluta's work was decent, especially Tec 424 and Bats 242, but otherwise I don't think any of it was worth writing home about. I thought Batman covers didn't really take on a dynamic until Jim Aparo came along became heir apparent to Neal Adams.

[Number 6]

The Adams cover mania is a fairly recent trend. Back in the day, a premium was placed on books where he did the interior art. I believe that's the reason 237 is more sought after than the surrounding issues, moreso than the cover image or the Rutland VT storyline.

 

And yes, there was a lot of drek published in the bat-books, but there are also some hidden gems, even apart from the Neal Adams illustrated issues. Most of the stories Denny O'Neal wrote are worth a read. See for example the Christmas issues in Batman 239 & 247, or the Col Sulphur story in 241 and it's sequel in 248, both Batman/Shadow crossovers in 253 & 259. Over in Detective there was the Key Largo inspired story in 414 and the Creeper x-over in 418. All of the Archie Goodwin edited Detectives 437-443 are excellent. Post Goodwin some highlights include Walt Simonson in 450, the Mike Grell vampire story in 455, the Crime Alley origin retelling in 457, the Ellery Queen inspired 459. Then the classic Steve Englehart/Marshall Rogers run hits in 471-476. Good stuff all.

 

+1

 

It has some of Adam's better art, though many of the panels are lacking on background.

 

Overstreet has it listed as the first appearance of the Reeper. But that seems an odd notation, considering how the story plays out. I don't know if they were thinking of the character in Year 2, he does share the name and some attributes but it's a completely different character.

[white_rushin]

Hey, not sure if any of you guys care, but I thought I'd update you with the fact that I'm getting copies of #232 and #251! So stoked to finally be getting these issues, and to add the fact that I'm getting em both at the same time even makes it better.

 

I might be grabbing a copy of #227 tomorrow as well. The catch being that its a VG copy for $50. Should I pull the trigger on that? I'm hoping I can lower it to $40.

[joe_collector]

The O'Neil Adams run on both GL and Batman was good reading.

 

But like I said, have you actually read the Batman books, cover to cover?

 

Adams work in that "run" was sporadic at best (and there were often multiple stories/issue), and while he did the covers, much or all of the interior art was often by some hack and the story itself usually had next-to-nothing to do with the killer cover. In a CGC 'look at the cover!" world, those are perfect books, but a lot of warts are lurking within.

 

Seriously, if Don Heck had done all the covers, this thread would not exist.

[joe_collector]

Didn't Kaluta and Wrightson do some nice Batman covers too during this period?

 

DC tried to sell junk by packaging it in a beautiful wrap, while Marvel often did the opposite.

 

For me, I went with the better interior content, while in today's CGC hermetically-sealed world, the killer covers win out.

[kimik]

The O'Neil Adams run on both GL and Batman was good reading.

 

But like I said, have you actually read the Batman books, cover to cover?

 

Adams work in that "run" was sporadic at best (and there were often multiple stories/issue), and while he did the covers, much or all of the interior art was often by some hack and the story itself usually had next-to-nothing to do with the killer cover. In a CGC 'look at the cover!" world, those are perfect books, but a lot of warts are lurking within.

 

Seriously, if Don Heck had done all the covers, this thread would not exist.

 

I have read the Adams issues, and some of the other runs as well. As a Batman fan, they are much better than the drek of the Silver Age. The worst Adams Batman related material was the first few issues of B&B IMHO. They improved a bit towards the end, but that was the weakest run of the three Bat-related titles. I would put the early Batman Ras Al Ghul storyline (Tec #405, 411 then Batman #232, 235, 240, 243-244) up against any other BA story arcs I have read.

 

That being said, every BA series has its warts. There are duds in the Byrne/Claremont X-Men run as well, and I would argue that ASM has way more bad than good in its BA run.

[Brian48]

Hey, not sure if any of you guys care, but I thought I'd update you with the fact that I'm getting copies of #232 and #251! So stoked to finally be getting these issues, and to add the fact that I'm getting em both at the same time even makes it better.

 

I might be grabbing a copy of #227 tomorrow as well. The catch being that its a VG copy for $50. Should I pull the trigger on that? I'm hoping I can lower it to $40.

 

#232 was the first book I got. That's how it starts. #251 came shortly after along with 243, 244, and 255. After that, I was pretty much hooked and went all out with a high grade #227. Have fun