Pebbling - pressing's next enemy that's easily fixed by pressing!

[Davenport]

Of course it should matter.

Or it should matter if 'grade' was a reflection of a book's actual state of preservation based on the attributes of the paper, inks and metal staples it's constructed of.

But in this hobby that's not the case, and the grade-press-regrade-repress wheel goes round and round.

That's a mighty big if. But I don't think grading has ever been, "What is the state of this book's preservation?" Has it? Hasn't it always been largely a combination of eye appeal (creases, writing, etc.) and preservation (PQ, staples, etc.)?

Grading has always been some artistic blend of the nomenclature borrowed over from coins and stamp grading, an attempt to communicate where a book is from "original condition" and what sells. It evolves.

 

But in normal evolution Graders would naturally catch up with what Pressers understand, and adjust for and apply that knowledge. But that's not what the Hobby's about when it comes to 'grade labels'. It's evolved into a numbers quest based on a criteria for obtaining the desired numbers. The book becomes a number-delivery-device, doing to it whatever is necessary.

 

 

[Ze-man]

Of course it should matter.

Or it should matter if 'grade' was a reflection of a book's actual state of preservation based on the attributes of the paper, inks and metal staples it's constructed of.

But in this hobby that's not the case, and the grade-press-regrade-repress wheel goes round and round.

That's a mighty big if. But I don't think grading has ever been, "What is the state of this book's preservation?" Has it? Hasn't it always been largely a combination of eye appeal (creases, writing, etc.) and preservation (PQ, staples, etc.)?

Grading has always been some artistic blend of the nomenclature borrowed over from coins and stamp grading, an attempt to communicate where a book is from "original condition" and what sells. It evolves.

 

But in normal evolution Graders would naturally catch up with what Pressers understand, and adjust for and apply that knowledge. But that's not what the Hobby's about when it comes to 'grade labels'. It's evolved into a numbers quest based on a criteria for obtaining the desired numbers. The book becomes a number-delivery-device, doing to it whatever is necessary.

 

 

I honestly do not follow your logic.

 

How is anybody supposed to disregard pressable flaws when assigning a grade, when they do not know with certainty what extent those flaws will come out post pressing?

 

You cannot grade a book that displays "pressable" defects as if they are not present. Because pressing may, or may not completely remove those defects. Hence why people just grade the book in front of them, and downgrade for whatever flaws detract from the baseline of 10.0

 

Yes grading is subjective, but at the same time it's more science then guesswork.

 

Wouldn't you agree?

 

 

[Davenport]

Of course it should matter.

Or it should matter if 'grade' was a reflection of a book's actual state of preservation based on the attributes of the paper, inks and metal staples it's constructed of.

But in this hobby that's not the case, and the grade-press-regrade-repress wheel goes round and round.

That's a mighty big if. But I don't think grading has ever been, "What is the state of this book's preservation?" Has it? Hasn't it always been largely a combination of eye appeal (creases, writing, etc.) and preservation (PQ, staples, etc.)?

Grading has always been some artistic blend of the nomenclature borrowed over from coins and stamp grading, an attempt to communicate where a book is from "original condition" and what sells. It evolves.

 

But in normal evolution Graders would naturally catch up with what Pressers understand, and adjust for and apply that knowledge. But that's not what the Hobby's about when it comes to 'grade labels'. It's evolved into a numbers quest based on a criteria for obtaining the desired numbers. The book becomes a number-delivery-device, doing to it whatever is necessary.

 

 

I honestly do not follow your logic.

 

How is anybody supposed to disregard pressable flaws when assigning a grade, when they do not know with certainty what extent those flaws will come out post pressing?

 

You cannot grade a book that displays "pressable" defects as if they are not present. Because pressing may, or may not completely remove those defects. Hence why people just grade the book in front of them, and downgrade for whatever flaws detract from the baseline of 10.0

 

Yes grading is subjective, but at the same time it's more science then guesswork.

 

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Kinda. I'm saying it should be more science than just the point-in-time eyework (if that's a word) process. "Seeing" should be the beginning of understanding what you're looking at, not its limit.

 

If your hair's out of place, it'd be silly to 'see' and assess that as head trauma.

 

[Ze-man]

Of course it should matter.

Or it should matter if 'grade' was a reflection of a book's actual state of preservation based on the attributes of the paper, inks and metal staples it's constructed of.

But in this hobby that's not the case, and the grade-press-regrade-repress wheel goes round and round.

That's a mighty big if. But I don't think grading has ever been, "What is the state of this book's preservation?" Has it? Hasn't it always been largely a combination of eye appeal (creases, writing, etc.) and preservation (PQ, staples, etc.)?

Grading has always been some artistic blend of the nomenclature borrowed over from coins and stamp grading, an attempt to communicate where a book is from "original condition" and what sells. It evolves.

 

But in normal evolution Graders would naturally catch up with what Pressers understand, and adjust for and apply that knowledge. But that's not what the Hobby's about when it comes to 'grade labels'. It's evolved into a numbers quest based on a criteria for obtaining the desired numbers. The book becomes a number-delivery-device, doing to it whatever is necessary.

 

 

I honestly do not follow your logic.

 

How is anybody supposed to disregard pressable flaws when assigning a grade, when they do not know with certainty what extent those flaws will come out post pressing?

 

You cannot grade a book that displays "pressable" defects as if they are not present. Because pressing may, or may not completely remove those defects. Hence why people just grade the book in front of them, and downgrade for whatever flaws detract from the baseline of 10.0

 

Yes grading is subjective, but at the same time it's more science then guesswork.

 

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Kinda. I'm saying it should be more science than just the point-in-time eyework (if that's a word) process. "Seeing" should be the beginning of understanding what you're looking at, not its limit.

 

If your hair's out of place, it'd be silly to 'see' and assess that as head trauma. You know, understanding how hair can behave. Knowing a stylist can fix it right up.

 

On that we agree. Out of place hair, is not head trauma.

 

Finally, we resolved something!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mschmidt]

::

[marvelcollector]

So, defects from pressing can be detected, but it's not possible to determine if a comic has been pressed?

 

Do I have that right?

[Davenport]

Of course it should matter.

Or it should matter if 'grade' was a reflection of a book's actual state of preservation based on the attributes of the paper, inks and metal staples it's constructed of.

But in this hobby that's not the case, and the grade-press-regrade-repress wheel goes round and round.

That's a mighty big if. But I don't think grading has ever been, "What is the state of this book's preservation?" Has it? Hasn't it always been largely a combination of eye appeal (creases, writing, etc.) and preservation (PQ, staples, etc.)?

Grading has always been some artistic blend of the nomenclature borrowed over from coins and stamp grading, an attempt to communicate where a book is from "original condition" and what sells. It evolves.

 

But in normal evolution Graders would naturally catch up with what Pressers understand, and adjust for and apply that knowledge. But that's not what the Hobby's about when it comes to 'grade labels'. It's evolved into a numbers quest based on a criteria for obtaining the desired numbers. The book becomes a number-delivery-device, doing to it whatever is necessary.

 

 

I honestly do not follow your logic.

 

How is anybody supposed to disregard pressable flaws when assigning a grade, when they do not know with certainty what extent those flaws will come out post pressing?

 

You cannot grade a book that displays "pressable" defects as if they are not present. Because pressing may, or may not completely remove those defects. Hence why people just grade the book in front of them, and downgrade for whatever flaws detract from the baseline of 10.0

 

Yes grading is subjective, but at the same time it's more science then guesswork.

 

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Kinda. I'm saying it should be more science than just the point-in-time eyework (if that's a word) process. "Seeing" should be the beginning of understanding what you're looking at, not its limit.

 

If your hair's out of place, it'd be silly to 'see' and assess that as head trauma. You know, understanding how hair can behave. Knowing a stylist can fix it right up.

 

On that we agree. Out of place hair, is not head trauma.

 

Finally, we resolved something!

Finally.

 

Seriously though, could some of your skill set, the fact-based understanding of paper's attributes you deal in, be taught to Graders?

If not, I suppose there'll always be 'speaking past each other' when it comes to the assessing of books, for pressing or for grading.

[Ze-man]

Of course it should matter.

Or it should matter if 'grade' was a reflection of a book's actual state of preservation based on the attributes of the paper, inks and metal staples it's constructed of.

But in this hobby that's not the case, and the grade-press-regrade-repress wheel goes round and round.

That's a mighty big if. But I don't think grading has ever been, "What is the state of this book's preservation?" Has it? Hasn't it always been largely a combination of eye appeal (creases, writing, etc.) and preservation (PQ, staples, etc.)?

Grading has always been some artistic blend of the nomenclature borrowed over from coins and stamp grading, an attempt to communicate where a book is from "original condition" and what sells. It evolves.

 

But in normal evolution Graders would naturally catch up with what Pressers understand, and adjust for and apply that knowledge. But that's not what the Hobby's about when it comes to 'grade labels'. It's evolved into a numbers quest based on a criteria for obtaining the desired numbers. The book becomes a number-delivery-device, doing to it whatever is necessary.

 

 

I honestly do not follow your logic.

 

How is anybody supposed to disregard pressable flaws when assigning a grade, when they do not know with certainty what extent those flaws will come out post pressing?

 

You cannot grade a book that displays "pressable" defects as if they are not present. Because pressing may, or may not completely remove those defects. Hence why people just grade the book in front of them, and downgrade for whatever flaws detract from the baseline of 10.0

 

Yes grading is subjective, but at the same time it's more science then guesswork.

 

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Kinda. I'm saying it should be more science than just the point-in-time eyework (if that's a word) process. "Seeing" should be the beginning of understanding what you're looking at, not its limit.

 

If your hair's out of place, it'd be silly to 'see' and assess that as head trauma. You know, understanding how hair can behave. Knowing a stylist can fix it right up.

 

On that we agree. Out of place hair, is not head trauma.

 

Finally, we resolved something!

Finally.

 

Seriously though, could some of your skill set, the fact-based understanding of paper's attributes you deal in, be taught to Graders?

If not, I suppose there'll always be 'speaking past each other' when it comes to the assessing of books, for pressing or for grading.

 

I think they understand plenty, but again. Knowing how a certain defect might press out on any given book does nothing more then help you assign an estimated grade. (which is a science/art form in itself) But graders are not supposed to estimate what they think a book would grade at if the defects they see, were removed.

 

Now maybe you wish they would not downgrade for certain kinds of defects as much because they are "pressable". But as it is right now, they grade the comic and put it in the basket.

 

Or they get the hose.

[originalisbest]

So, defects from pressing can be detected, but it's not possible to determine if a comic has been pressed?

 

Do I have that right?

 

Not possible if a book has been correctly pressed. By definition, defects inflicted from an incorrect pressing, are detectible, and detract from the comic's appearance, and thus the interest in seeing if a proper press can remove said defects.

[originalisbest]

Not that difficult a concept to get your head around, unless you're being willfully ignorant.

 

If pebbling is evident, it's a visual distraction, the result of a poorly executed press. Grade will be commensurate with the appearance (grade the book as it sits in front of you)

 

However, a book that has been pressed poorly, such that it exhibits pebbling, can be pressed in a proper manner, such that the pebbling effect can be removed from the paper surface. Which should then result in a higher grade (grading the book as it sits in front of you.)

 

I'm more interested in seeing if a slightly shrunken-cover book can be amended with a further pressing, to have an appearance equivalent to the pre-shrunken state. I've read opinions pro and con on the possibility of this, but haven't seen any high-profile examples of before, after, and after-after.

"Willfully ignorant". Now there's an interesting concept.

 

All I'm saying is if a known attribute of paper can be considered and applied when assessing a book for pressing, it can likewise be considered and applied when 'grading'. To confine 'Grade' to 'sits in front of you' is a conscious choice, an application of "willful ignorance". Yes?

 

As ze-man said, you might try to assign the exact same grades to a "perfect" book, and an otherwise identical condition book, but with two ncb finger dents in the cover that "should" press out, but in so doing you can't say for sure (it's an educated guess) that the ncb dents will press out, and the books will both be worthy of the same "perfect" grade (let's say they're two 9.9's) without actually first pressing the one with the ncb dents, to see what happens.

[Davenport]

Not that difficult a concept to get your head around, unless you're being willfully ignorant.

 

If pebbling is evident, it's a visual distraction, the result of a poorly executed press. Grade will be commensurate with the appearance (grade the book as it sits in front of you)

 

However, a book that has been pressed poorly, such that it exhibits pebbling, can be pressed in a proper manner, such that the pebbling effect can be removed from the paper surface. Which should then result in a higher grade (grading the book as it sits in front of you.)

 

I'm more interested in seeing if a slightly shrunken-cover book can be amended with a further pressing, to have an appearance equivalent to the pre-shrunken state. I've read opinions pro and con on the possibility of this, but haven't seen any high-profile examples of before, after, and after-after.

"Willfully ignorant". Now there's an interesting concept.

 

All I'm saying is if a known attribute of paper can be considered and applied when assessing a book for pressing, it can likewise be considered and applied when 'grading'. To confine 'Grade' to 'sits in front of you' is a conscious choice, an application of "willful ignorance". Yes?

 

As ze-man said, you might try to assign the exact same grades to a "perfect" book, and an otherwise identical condition book, but with two ncb finger dents in the cover that "should" press out, but in so doing you can't say for sure (it's an educated guess) that the ncb dents will press out, and the books will both be worthy of the same "perfect" grade (let's say they're two 9.9's) without actually first pressing the one with the ncb dents, to see what happens.

I was saying "considered and applied", never said "exact same grade".

 

I'm saying a grader could be "neutral" and leave the "eye of the beholder" stuff mainly to, well, the beholders. If an area of paper isn't frayed, fibers broken, torn, chipped, cracked, or scuffed then it is what it is. An accurate assessment will reflect that.

Leave "ugly" more up to the owner or future owners, and grade to the reality as it is.

 

 

[originalisbest]

Not that difficult a concept to get your head around, unless you're being willfully ignorant.

 

If pebbling is evident, it's a visual distraction, the result of a poorly executed press. Grade will be commensurate with the appearance (grade the book as it sits in front of you)

 

However, a book that has been pressed poorly, such that it exhibits pebbling, can be pressed in a proper manner, such that the pebbling effect can be removed from the paper surface. Which should then result in a higher grade (grading the book as it sits in front of you.)

 

I'm more interested in seeing if a slightly shrunken-cover book can be amended with a further pressing, to have an appearance equivalent to the pre-shrunken state. I've read opinions pro and con on the possibility of this, but haven't seen any high-profile examples of before, after, and after-after.

"Willfully ignorant". Now there's an interesting concept.

 

All I'm saying is if a known attribute of paper can be considered and applied when assessing a book for pressing, it can likewise be considered and applied when 'grading'. To confine 'Grade' to 'sits in front of you' is a conscious choice, an application of "willful ignorance". Yes?

 

As ze-man said, you might try to assign the exact same grades to a "perfect" book, and an otherwise identical condition book, but with two ncb finger dents in the cover that "should" press out, but in so doing you can't say for sure (it's an educated guess) that the ncb dents will press out, and the books will both be worthy of the same "perfect" grade (let's say they're two 9.9's) without actually first pressing the one with the ncb dents, to see what happens.

I was saying "considered and applied", never said "exact same grade".

 

I'm saying a grader could be "neutral" and leave the "eye of the beholder" stuff mainly to, well, the beholders. If an area of paper isn't frayed, fibers broken, torn, chipped, cracked, or scuffed then it is what it is. An accurate assessment will reflect that.

Leave "ugly" more up to the owner or future owners, and grade to the reality as it is.

 

 

I don't think we're all that far apart, in that regard.

[Transplant]

How about completely faded red inks?

[mschmidt]

Not that difficult a concept to get your head around, unless you're being willfully ignorant.

 

If pebbling is evident, it's a visual distraction, the result of a poorly executed press. Grade will be commensurate with the appearance (grade the book as it sits in front of you)

 

However, a book that has been pressed poorly, such that it exhibits pebbling, can be pressed in a proper manner, such that the pebbling effect can be removed from the paper surface. Which should then result in a higher grade (grading the book as it sits in front of you.)

 

I'm more interested in seeing if a slightly shrunken-cover book can be amended with a further pressing, to have an appearance equivalent to the pre-shrunken state. I've read opinions pro and con on the possibility of this, but haven't seen any high-profile examples of before, after, and after-after.

"Willfully ignorant". Now there's an interesting concept.

 

All I'm saying is if a known attribute of paper can be considered and applied when assessing a book for pressing, it can likewise be considered and applied when 'grading'. To confine 'Grade' to 'sits in front of you' is a conscious choice, an application of "willful ignorance". Yes?

 

As ze-man said, you might try to assign the exact same grades to a "perfect" book, and an otherwise identical condition book, but with two ncb finger dents in the cover that "should" press out, but in so doing you can't say for sure (it's an educated guess) that the ncb dents will press out, and the books will both be worthy of the same "perfect" grade (let's say they're two 9.9's) without actually first pressing the one with the ncb dents, to see what happens.

I was saying "considered and applied", never said "exact same grade".

 

I'm saying a grader could be "neutral" and leave the "eye of the beholder" stuff mainly to, well, the beholders. If an area of paper isn't frayed, fibers broken, torn, chipped, cracked, or scuffed then it is what it is. An accurate assessment will reflect that.

Leave "ugly" more up to the owner or future owners, and grade to the reality as it is.

 

 

But that's the exact opposite of what you've been saying so far.

 

You want the graders to grade a book and ignore certain, possibly-fixable defects that they see. Which is nuts. The graders should grade the book that's in front of them, based on the current condition said book is in - nothing more, nothing less. That's both accurate and "graded to the reality", whatever that means.

[VintageComics]

Of course it should matter.

Or it should matter if 'grade' was a reflection of a book's actual state of preservation based on the attributes of the paper, inks and metal staples it's constructed of.

But in this hobby that's not the case, and the grade-press-regrade-repress wheel goes round and round.

That's a mighty big if. But I don't think grading has ever been, "What is the state of this book's preservation?" Has it? Hasn't it always been largely a combination of eye appeal (creases, writing, etc.) and preservation (PQ, staples, etc.)?

Grading has always been some artistic blend of the nomenclature borrowed over from coins and stamp grading, an attempt to communicate where a book is from "original condition" and what sells. It evolves.

 

But in normal evolution Graders would naturally catch up with what Pressers understand, and adjust for and apply that knowledge. But that's not what the Hobby's about when it comes to 'grade labels'. It's evolved into a numbers quest based on a criteria for obtaining the desired numbers. The book becomes a number-delivery-device, doing to it whatever is necessary.

 

 

I honestly do not follow your logic.

 

How is anybody supposed to disregard pressable flaws when assigning a grade, when they do not know with certainty what extent those flaws will come out post pressing?

 

You cannot grade a book that displays "pressable" defects as if they are not present. Because pressing may, or may not completely remove those defects. Hence why people just grade the book in front of them, and downgrade for whatever flaws detract from the baseline of 10.0

 

Yes grading is subjective, but at the same time it's more science then guesswork.

 

Wouldn't you agree?

 

Kinda. I'm saying it should be more science than just the point-in-time eyework (if that's a word) process. "Seeing" should be the beginning of understanding what you're looking at, not its limit.

 

If your hair's out of place, it'd be silly to 'see' and assess that as head trauma. You know, understanding how hair can behave. Knowing a stylist can fix it right up.

 

On that we agree. Out of place hair, is not head trauma.

 

Finally, we resolved something!

Finally.

 

Seriously though, could some of your skill set, the fact-based understanding of paper's attributes you deal in, be taught to Graders?

If not, I suppose there'll always be 'speaking past each other' when it comes to the assessing of books, for pressing or for grading.

 

I think they understand plenty, but again. Knowing how a certain defect might press out on any given book does nothing more then help you assign an estimated grade. (which is a science/art form in itself) But graders are not supposed to estimate what they think a book would grade at if the defects they see, were removed.

 

Now maybe you wish they would not downgrade for certain kinds of defects as much because they are "pressable". But as it is right now, they grade the comic and put it in the basket.

 

Or they get the hose.

 

It's starting to sound like people want CGC graders to be able to read minds and tell the future, but that isn't really built into the grading fees.

[Davenport]

Not that difficult a concept to get your head around, unless you're being willfully ignorant.

 

If pebbling is evident, it's a visual distraction, the result of a poorly executed press. Grade will be commensurate with the appearance (grade the book as it sits in front of you)

 

However, a book that has been pressed poorly, such that it exhibits pebbling, can be pressed in a proper manner, such that the pebbling effect can be removed from the paper surface. Which should then result in a higher grade (grading the book as it sits in front of you.)

 

I'm more interested in seeing if a slightly shrunken-cover book can be amended with a further pressing, to have an appearance equivalent to the pre-shrunken state. I've read opinions pro and con on the possibility of this, but haven't seen any high-profile examples of before, after, and after-after.

"Willfully ignorant". Now there's an interesting concept.

 

All I'm saying is if a known attribute of paper can be considered and applied when assessing a book for pressing, it can likewise be considered and applied when 'grading'. To confine 'Grade' to 'sits in front of you' is a conscious choice, an application of "willful ignorance". Yes?

 

As ze-man said, you might try to assign the exact same grades to a "perfect" book, and an otherwise identical condition book, but with two ncb finger dents in the cover that "should" press out, but in so doing you can't say for sure (it's an educated guess) that the ncb dents will press out, and the books will both be worthy of the same "perfect" grade (let's say they're two 9.9's) without actually first pressing the one with the ncb dents, to see what happens.

I was saying "considered and applied", never said "exact same grade".

 

I'm saying a grader could be "neutral" and leave the "eye of the beholder" stuff mainly to, well, the beholders. If an area of paper isn't frayed, fibers broken, torn, chipped, cracked, or scuffed then it is what it is. An accurate assessment will reflect that.

Leave "ugly" more up to the owner or future owners, and grade to the reality as it is.

 

 

But that's the exact opposite of what you've been saying so far.

 

You want the graders to grade a book and ignore certain, possibly-fixable defects that they see. Which is nuts. The graders should grade the book that's in front of them, based on the current condition said book is in - nothing more, nothing less. That's both accurate and "graded to the reality", whatever that means.

It's not the opposite of what I've been saying and I never said I want graders to ignore anything.

 

Let me ask you...

How hard should a professional assessor slam a book for being pebbled? Hard, like the paper is actually damaged, permanent and forever defective? Is that the reality he's facing? Or is he seeing paper in a state that paper can handle without being permanently damaged at all?

 

If you see an 8.5 leap to 9.4 after pressing, you're saying the 8.5 designation and its 9.4 incarnation were both accurate assessments of the book assembly? How can that be? Pressing can only impact what was there already, what exists before treatment is applied, only make it flatter.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ogami]

I'm in a pressing thread!

[namisgr]

It's a pebbling thread.

[Davenport]

I'm in a pressing thread!

Yeah, it's become that, hasn't it?

 

Frak pebbling and the broken down dry-mount it rode in on. Who gives a .

 

[ChrisInBaltimore]

Does CGC trademark all these terms?