SFilosa--YOU'RE VERY LUCKY!!!

[lou_fine]

tend to believe that most opponents of pressing are more concerned about the perceived activity going on to garner bigger profits, than they are about the actual elimination of some creases on a book.

 

That was exactly what I said. Marnin's editorial pretty much said that "it about the greed".

 

I honestly think that people don't like the idea that someone ELSE has found a way to increase their profits.

 

Sfilosa;

 

I am in complete agreement with both Blowout and tth2 here. Opponents of cleaning and pressing such as me are more concerned with the fact that CGC is officially allowing certain restored books to hide behind their blue unrestored label. The ONLY reason CGC states that cleaning and pressing is not considered to be restoration is because they CURRENTLY do not have the ability to detect this type of "restoration" work with an acceptable degree of confidence.

 

As per my previous post here, both Overstreet and Susan Cicconi appears to clearly feel that any attempt to improve the appearance of a book is considered to be restoration. Included in here is cleaning (removal of dirt, ink, stains, etc) and pressing out of wrinkles as per OS's definition; and dry cleaning according to Susan's list from your own posting.

 

It's really less about the money or profit and more to do with the fact that CGC appears to be legitimizing certain restoration activities and letting sellers get away with undisclosed restoration. This is also more to do with undermining the integrity and confidence level of the high-end market in the future as this practice accelerates in the marketplace like a bad disease.

 

As somebody has already stated here, if cleaning and pressing is TRULY ok and not considered to be restoration, then why has nobody bothered to disclose it when they are selling a book. It truly should not affect the final price since CGC has clearly stated that this activity is ok and not considered to be restoration. Maybe everybody says one thing when they really mean the exact opposite.

 

Question for you Sfilosa. According to your argument, would you truly be willing to pay the same price for two books which were graded exactly the same if you knew that one of them had absolutely no work done to it, while the other book in the exact same condition had been cleaned and pressed up to this grade? Based upon your point of view, I already know that your answer to this question must be YES. The only problem is that I just don't believe your answer.

[lou_fine]

Until those that press books admit to it and come clean....what they are doing may not be restoration...but it is indeed dishonest and greedy.

 

Why?

 

Do people in their auction state that the book has Marvel Chipping or is more yellowed than normal or has dirt or a dust shadow on the back cover which is unappealing. NO THEY DON'T.

 

Sfilosa;

 

YES, THEY DO. I see it all the time in auction descriptions when they mention specific flaws on a high grade book. You can see it in the Heritage descriptions, the Pedigree.com descriptions, etc. These flaws ARE usually pointed out to provide the prospective buyer with more information that they might not otherwise see clearly from a scan and is also disclosed in order to VALIDATE the given grade on a book.

 

Cleaning and pressing, on the other hand, is never disclosed because the seller clearly knows that it is not accepted and would INVALIDATE the given grade on any book.

[sfilosa]

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I really do believe that Steve Borock and the people who set-up CGC, don't believe that Pressing is Restoration (and this attitude was PRIOR to CGC, when they were COLLECTORS).

 

Also, how could I state that any of the books that I am selling have been PRESSED when I didn't do it. No one told me they were pressed and I haven't a clue if they were or weren't. So you expect some big time dealer to say "YES, MOST OF MY BOOKS ARE PRESSED,", while all the other dealers DON'T, or compete against all the books that no one even knows if they are pressed or not).

 

I've never said it wouldn't effect the final sale price of a book. It really wouldn't effect what I bid, but if that takes a few other bidders off the table, than there is a good chance that the book would sell for less.

 

What a second, you might be on to something.

[blazingbob]

The problem with Coin cleaning was that the Grading service and dealers owned them. In fact NCS (Cleaning Service) is neatly placed on the NGC website and right at the bottom of the CGC website.

 

Cleaning and Grading services under one roof, mmm.

[blazingbob]

The problem with undisclosed cleaning is that every coin you may buy has a "cleaning cloud" hanging over it. Was it or Was it not cleaned? Unless you were the person getting it graded they are the only person who "knows". That's the whole point of pressing, nobody knows what books have been done or haven't been done. Is it a 9.6 or PI9.6? If you don't care it wouldn't matter, if you did you have to guess or rely on the person selling you the book to tell you.

[Red Hook]

 

Cleaning and Grading services under one roof, mmm.

 

Let me add a hearty mmmm to that too, Bob.

[sfilosa]

The problem with undisclosed cleaning is that every coin you may buy has a "cleaning cloud" hanging over it. Was it or Was it not cleaned? Unless you were the person getting it graded they are the only person who "knows". That's the whole point of pressing, nobody knows what books have been done or haven't been done. Is it a 9.6 or PI9.6? If you don't care it wouldn't matter, if you did you have to guess or rely on the person selling you the book to tell you.

 

Once again, bringing it back to my point of invalidating all prior grades on big ticket items. .......Yeah, that's going to be beneficial to CGC in the long run.

 

Oh, let's only start saying a book is pressed on resubmits of pedigree or rare books.........Yeah, that's going to be beneficial to CGC in the long run.

 

Well, let's just put it in the graders notes, but not on the label. So thousands of collectors have to call to see if the book is pressed (even though they like the grade given to the book and the scan looks great) .......Yeah, that's going to be beneficial to CGC in the long run.

 

Basically, WHY BOTHER having a THIRD PARTY grading company if you still don't have any TRUST in the PRODUCT.

[fantastic_four]

Cleaning and Grading services under one roof, mmm.

 

I realize NGC does this, but since there are a bunch of coin certification companies, does anyone else know whether the others view cleaning as restoration? I don't have first-hand knowledge of this, but I asked this question last year in the coin forums and someone mentioned other companies who didn't note it when done well because it was usually undetectable.

 

Asking the coin experts again might be in order...

[blowout]

Basically, WHY BOTHER having a THIRD PARTY grading company if you still don't have any TRUST in the PRODUCT.

 

Thats exactly the point I made earlier. CGC need to maintain consumer confidence in their product or people will stop buying it.

The cleaning/pressing issue is something that could undermine consumer confidence in CGC's product.

[sfilosa]

Basically, WHY BOTHER having a THIRD PARTY grading company if you still don't have any TRUST in the PRODUCT.

 

Thats exactly the point I made earlier. CGC need to maintain consumer confidence in their product or people will stop buying it.

The cleaning/pressing issue is something that could undermine consumer confidence in CGC's product.

 

More than CHANGING their STANDARDS.

 

I don't think so..

[blowout]

Basically, WHY BOTHER having a THIRD PARTY grading company if you still don't have any TRUST in the PRODUCT.

 

Thats exactly the point I made earlier. CGC need to maintain consumer confidence in their product or people will stop buying it.

The cleaning/pressing issue is something that could undermine consumer confidence in CGC's product.

 

More than CHANGING their STANDARDS.

 

I don't think so..

 

Not neccessarily more or less, but these issues are all factors that determine market confidence. There is nothing wrong with CGC changing and adapting with market forces, as long as they are clear and transparent with their practices.

[Red Hook]

I'd think of it as RAISING their standards. It's called IMPROVING the SERVICE.

[sfilosa]

I'd think of it as RAISING their standards. It's called IMPROVING the SERVICE.

 

 

If they said that they were going to Raise their Standards on what constitutes a NM book, would that be a good thing?

 

The Standards they could raise would be:

1) Better turnaround time

2) A holder that is more durable and doesn't cause SCS.

3) Cheaper grading fees. (Took a shot).

[goldust40]

I'd think of it as RAISING their standards. It's called IMPROVING the SERVICE.

 

But, and I'm assuming that this is what CGC is thinking, such a move would retroactively taint all the previous slabs due to the absence of this improvement.

[blowout]

I'd think of it as RAISING their standards. It's called IMPROVING the SERVICE.

 

But, and I'm assuming that this is what CGC is thinking, such a move would retroactively taint all the previous slabs due to the absence of this improvement.

 

Regrade.

[goldust40]

I'd think of it as RAISING their standards. It's called IMPROVING the SERVICE.

 

But, and I'm assuming that this is what CGC is thinking, such a move would retroactively taint all the previous slabs due to the absence of this improvement.

 

Regrade.

 

A logistical nightmare given the amount of books we're talking about......but it's a possibility.

[blowout]

I'd think of it as RAISING their standards. It's called IMPROVING the SERVICE.

 

But, and I'm assuming that this is what CGC is thinking, such a move would retroactively taint all the previous slabs due to the absence of this improvement.

 

Regrade.

 

A logistical nightmare given the amount of books we're talking about......but it's a possibility.

 

Don't you think this scenario would benefit CGC? It could be said that a revision of their standards every few years would be a good business model, if it encouraged people to resubmit previously graded books.

[lou_fine]

Basically, WHY BOTHER having a THIRD PARTY grading company if you still don't have any TRUST in the PRODUCT.

 

Thats exactly the point I made earlier. CGC need to maintain consumer confidence in their product or people will stop buying it.

The cleaning/pressing issue is something that could undermine consumer confidence in CGC's product.

 

More than CHANGING their STANDARDS.

 

I don't think so..

 

I don't think changing their standards is a major issue since nobody really knows what their standards are since CGC has never publicly disclosed them up to this point in time. As a result, this has made it very convenient for CGC to SLIGHTLY alter their grading standards over time to reflect the changing mood in the marketplace.

 

A change in the definition of restoration by CGC to now include cleaning and pressing, however, would represent a major change and I could see it happening in only two situations: 1) If technology improves in such a way as to make it relatively easy and economical for anybody to identify artificial pressing from natural pressing; and 2) If CGC adopts a formal restoration rating system which would take into account TYPE and EXTENT of restoration.

 

Invalidating previously graded books would not be a issue with CGC since they would spin it in a positive way by emphasizing an ever growing and improving level of service to their valued customers in the form of more accurate grading and state of the art restoration detection techniques. CGC would also spin it that all books would eventually get regraded anyways due to the limited life of the microchamber paper. Needless to say, the CGC zombies would buy this story hook, line, and sinker.

 

Either way, the Marketplace would probably dictate that books with any significant value such as GA, high grade SA, and HG BA keys would go through the resubmission process since new label books would command a higher market premium in comparison to questionable older label books. The majority of CGC previously graded books (i.e. Modern Age, Copper Age, and non-high grade BA) would NOT have to go through this resubmission process since nobody in their right mind should have gotten any of this drek graded in the first place, let alone waste more good money having it cleaned and pressed.

[sfilosa]

Look, I'm from Palm Beach County, and even I realize

 

WHEN it's OVER it's OVER.

 

[lou_fine]

Look, I from Palm Beach County, and even I realize

 

WHEN it's OVER it's OVER.

 

 

You are absolutely right!