CGC Issue Resolved

[Davenport]

So CGC got better at resto (trimming) detection ... how is that bad ?

 

Really? Did you actually type this?

 

It's like paying top dollar for a painting, verified as authentic by a host of experts, then trying to sell the painting years later, and those *same* experts now tell you it's a forgery.

 

At some point in this process, there has to be some accountability.

Why? There's really no oversight authorities, no governing laws and no competition, unlike the art world.

As far as incentives go, that leaves self-interest. Here's hoping.

[comicwiz]

The CGC should have some measure of responsibility if they previously graded a book as universal and upon resubmission it comes back as restored.

 

However, one would have a hard time proving that they weren't restored after they were cracked out. Even sending the books to the CGC in their respective holders wouldn't do much good as they would probably resort to a "prove it" mentality.

 

This.

 

I've described this very situation happening a number of times and was met with mixed views, and a few naysayers in the crowd.

 

Take front and rear cover scans before you send anything because Watson is 100% bang-on with their "prove it" mentality.

 

They need to make good on situations like this, and what I mean by making good is restoring the submitter FMV on a blue label book.

 

Period.

[Kindle-migration]

 

Hey man, thanks for the nice words.

 

I'm not all that experienced compared to say a CGC grader but I do remember Borock telling me that they spot most restoration (including colour touch) with the naked eye and once you learn to exercise that skill it starts to just jump out at you. Like anything the more you do it the better you get at it.

 

 

Those who answered phones for CGC are now graders so you probably are

just as good.

 

 

 

 

But he'd never try to sell the same AF 15 to two buyers at once, would he?

 

 

Show me the MONEY!

[joe_collector]

They need to make good on situations like this, and what I mean by making good is restoring the submitter FMV on a blue label book.

 

And by not doing so, and weakening the slab market over the longer term, they are assuring their eventual obsolescence.

 

Imagine if this ever happened with a serious book, like a HG GA/SA key? If enough press get ahold of it, the entire market could melt down overnight.

[comicwiz]

So CGC got better at resto (trimming) detection ... how is that bad ?

 

Really? Did you actually type this?

 

It's like paying top dollar for a painting, verified as authentic by a host of experts, then trying to sell the painting years later, and those *same* experts now tell you it's a forgery.

 

At some point in this process, there has to be some accountability.

Agreed. I think the safest bet is let them crack them for a possible bump. They have no clue what happened to the book.

 

Lets say you send a slab -uncracked to Matt or Joey would this be the same thing as sending one in naked? or would you have a more represented case?

 

Either way this is a crime for the OP and I would be sick !

 

I asked this very hypothetical scenario to Mark/Matt - Mark responded with detail and described it as a rare situation. It might well be a rare situation, but the OP should know this type of CGC miss has happened on more than one occasion, and IMHO it needs to be addressed at minimum by compensating the submitter for the fair market value hit on a blue to purple chameleon submission.

[slym2none]

So CGC got better at resto (trimming) detection ... how is that bad ?

 

Really? Did you actually type this?

 

It's like paying top dollar for a painting, verified as authentic by a host of experts, then trying to sell the painting years later, and those *same* experts now tell you it's a forgery.

 

At some point in this process, there has to be some accountability.

Agreed. I think the safest bet is let them crack them for a possible bump. They have no clue what happened to the book.

 

Lets say you send a slab -uncracked to Matt or Joey would this be the same thing as sending one in naked? or would you have a more represented case?

 

Either way this is a crime for the OP and I would be sick !

 

I am not taking sides here, just wondering about something I just thought of - if you send a comic in the CGC slab for them to crack, the person grading it or checking for resto has no idea it came out of a slab, correct? The cracking process would happen before any procedures got underway, and neither the resto-checker nor the grader would have ever known it was previously in a CGC slab (no matter what colour the label,) correct?

 

So, unless there was an accounting somehow attached to this book, there is no way for CGC to know this was in a blue label first, correct? And if there was an accounting, it would have to be in a way that the grader/resto checker could never access it, correct?

 

I very well could be mistaken about any of these processes, and am just trying to learn, so if I am wrong, I will gladly take the lesson.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

 

Hey man, thanks for the nice words.

 

I'm not all that experienced compared to say a CGC grader but I do remember Borock telling me that they spot most restoration (including colour touch) with the naked eye and once you learn to exercise that skill it starts to just jump out at you. Like anything the more you do it the better you get at it.

 

Those who answered phones for CGC are now graders so you probably are

just as good.

 

 

But he'd never try to sell the same AF 15 to two buyers at once, would he?

 

Show me the MONEY!

 

I wouldn't show you any money, much less give any to you.

 

 

 

-slym

[Davenport]

They need to make good on situations like this, and what I mean by making good is restoring the submitter FMV on a blue label book.

 

And by not doing so, and weakening the slab market over the longer term, they are assuring their eventual obsolescence.

 

Imagine if this ever happened with a serious book, like a HG GA/SA key? If enough press get ahold of it, the entire market could melt down overnight.

Ouch! If you put mine together, they WERE 5 figure

and...

Avengers 1 - Grade Date: 02/07/2003

 

Journey into Mystery 83 - Grade Date: 09/14/2007

Maybe not HG, but still...

[Spider-Dan]

Dan, were these two books "straight" resubs or were they pressed before being resubmitted ?

 

And if they were pressed, by whom ?

 

No. Only books I've ever had pressed were 2 books that got dinged in shipping to CGC. They called to lmk, then conveniently walked them right over to Matt.

[Jaydogrules]

Dan, were these two books "straight" resubs or were they pressed before being resubmitted ?

 

And if they were pressed, by whom ?

 

No. Only books I've ever had pressed were 2 books that got dinged in shipping to CGC. They called to lmk, then conveniently walked them right over to Matt.

 

Hindsight is always 20/20, but if they were not pressed beforehand, what was the purpose of removing them from the slab before sending them in? CGC will gladly take your money and do a grade reconsideration, especially of books in old slabs. You could have just sent the slab to them, and let them crack it out at their office before sending it back to the graders, as another poster has mentioned they do.

 

Or do you think if they see the original grade they'll just stick it in a new holder with a new label and give it the same grade?

 

Either way, it still ain't right that both books came back with "restoration" the second time around.

 

-J.

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

So CGC got better at resto (trimming) detection ... how is that bad ?

 

Really? Did you actually type this?

 

It's like paying top dollar for a painting, verified as authentic by a host of experts, then trying to sell the painting years later, and those *same* experts now tell you it's a forgery.

 

At some point in this process, there has to be some accountability.

Agreed. I think the safest bet is let them crack them for a possible bump. They have no clue what happened to the book.

 

Lets say you send a slab -uncracked to Matt or Joey would this be the same thing as sending one in naked? or would you have a more represented case?

 

Either way this is a crime for the OP and I would be sick !

 

I am not taking sides here, just wondering about something I just thought of - if you send a comic in the CGC slab for them to crack, the person grading it or checking for resto has no idea it came out of a slab, correct? The cracking process would happen before any procedures got underway, and neither the resto-checker nor the grader would have ever known it was previously in a CGC slab (no matter what colour the label,) correct?

 

So, unless there was an accounting somehow attached to this book, there is no way for CGC to know this was in a blue label first, correct? And if there was an accounting, it would have to be in a way that the grader/resto checker could never access it, correct?

 

I very well could be mistaken about any of these processes, and am just trying to learn, so if I am wrong, I will gladly take the lesson.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

No reason the graders should know, but it needs to be documented to remove the book from the census.

[slym2none]

I agree - basically, IMHO, anytime CGC gets one of its own slabs to crack before re-subbing, there should be some sort of tracking that the graders & resto checker can't access. That way, if something like the OPs problem came up, CGC would know before it got packed up for shipping and could have a second look at the book in question.

 

 

 

-slym

[Bomber-Bob]

Read the link Comicwiz provided from Mark Zaid addressing this.

It appears the major problem is the book was sent in 'naked'.

Here is the quote from Mark....

 

'Although fortunately this is a very rare situation, I discussed the fact pattern with Harshen and the short answer is, yes, based on the guarantee CGC provides (as well as simply being a good business practice) there would be good-faith negotiations, as there has in the past when certain situations arose, to ensure the submitter is made financially whole.

 

Now, certain facts would need to exist. For example, the book would have to be submitted intact in its blue holder and no tampering present. So that means a cracked-out book submitted along with a blue label would not be eligible.

 

As far as your follow-up question, when a book is submitted to CCS intact in its holder a CCS employee will log that book into the system and verify the serial number listed by the customer. It will be noted that the book was in its holder. The book will be de-slabbed by a CCS employee and then proceed through the normal process. In the rare chance that previously undetected restoration is later identified by a CGC grader of a book that can be traced back through CCS there should be no issue regarding the proper chain-of-possession and verification of the information.'

[slym2none]

Awesome, thanks for that!!! (both you and Comicwiz - I am notorious for not clicking links )

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Bookery]

There's an interesting sidebar to this discussion I haven't seen mentioned...

 

The reason this is a topic at all is because of the huge financial hit the OP is taking on these books. Yet the reality is... the restoration is obviously so miniscule that even professional graders didn't see it the first time around. Yet instead of a 10% or 20% value docking as might logically be expected, in today's marketplace these books may lose as much as 90% of their value.

 

That says as much about the insanity of today's comic market as it says about CGC's small error rate.

 

[Gotham Kid]

the restoration is obviously so miniscule that even professional graders didn't see it the first time around. Yet instead of a 10% or 20% value docking as might logically be expected, in today's marketplace these books may lose as much as 90% of their value.

 

Even with EP or EA, SA will never get 90%

 

In the case of the OP's books, it'd most likely be SP

[Old Fashion PB and J]

So CGC got better at resto (trimming) detection ... how is that bad ?

 

How would you feel if one of your hi grade books you paid top dollar for turned out to have resto on it??

I would feel like I lost a gamble. Did you check the old labels numbers against the lists that CGC has supplied of books that have possibly been trimmed? This is crucial. And I do feel bad about you getting the hose, but I also believe you have had these threads before. You already know the CPR game is dangerous.

 

Where might one find this list that cgc keeps? Also, am I the only one that finds it strange that a book with horrific marvel chipping can get a 7.0 grade, but if that same book is "trimmed" to cut away the rot of the book and make it look 100% better, that it is considered "restored"? I thought the general defining rule of restoration is that you are adding something new to the book. Trimming, especially when done professionally is doing the exact opposite.

 

-J.

It is a sticky on page 1 of comics general... Also you could post and request the list of suspected EWERT trimmed books, it is available.

[stroszek]

Another fix would be to stop calling books with a tiny bit of color touch restored. Because they're not. Just grade the slight CT as a defect and note it in a universal label.

 

 

 

 

[Old Fashion PB and J]

People keep saying this is just a risk of the CPR game but it's not for me. I've never done a CPR but I have a couple hundred slabs. If even 5% are restored in a blue label then it's alarming to me. What if I sell one and someone resubs it? Am I on the hook for selling a restored book? Do we place all the 'blame' on the person doing the resub? It's hard for me to think if this was brought to my attention I wouldn't feel the need to 'make it right'.

 

The implication is that people who attempt a CPR are "greedy", and they should just be happy with the grade that's on the label already. The implication is that if you CPR and it comes back "restored", or even a lower grade that you played the game, gambled, and lost. Too bad for you.

 

But a lot of people buy comics as long term investments, and yes, some books are plainly under graded, or have very superficial defects that can be cured with a simple press, and should probably be re considered by CGC. It's only natural for someone to want to maximize their investment. As an owner of the book, you have a right to do that if you are willing to pay their fees. And if the book wasn't in a "restored" slab before, at the very least, you should expect it to still be in a blue label again. It's the randomness of it all that is turning a lot of people off. Either the book was restored or it wasn't. So now two versions of the same book on the census? An unrestored and a restored one? That's just silly.

 

An experienced collector, and/or an presser should be able to determine whether or not it makes sense to crack a book out and go for the upgrade. I for one know that I have just as many books that seem over graded as I do books that are under graded. I have yet to do a CPR on one of those, but I often get tempted. As for the ones that don't look as good to me as the assigned grade, I just leave those alone.

 

-J.

Look, if you want to "invest" in CGC graded comic books, do a little research. It is not some well hidden secret about resto being missed and 100's of possibly trimmed books. So if you would like to "invest" then make sure you know who and what you are investing your money in. And if you would like to attempt to "maximize" the investments potential, you need to also realize that ANY investment opportunity comes with some degree of risk. In these particular instances the risk was a worst case scenario. How many times has the OP reaped the rewards? SO while I agree that it is frustrating that he is losing money, because face it.. Thats all he wanted. It is indeed a risk in the game and needs to be accepted.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

Another fix would be to stop calling books with a tiny bit of color touch restored. Because they're not. Just grade the slight CT as a defect and note it in a universal label.

 

 

 

No.. That is restoration.