Which is the bigger key X-Men issue?

[shadroch]

Hulk 181 didn't really break out for a couple of years. HOS 92 was a high priced book foe quite awhile. The first appearance of Warlord was a big one, as well.

[divad]

Hulk 181 didn't really break out for a couple of years. HOS 92 was a high priced book foe quite awhile. The first appearance of Warlord was a big one, as well.

 

There was no real hype when IH 181 came out - I recall it being a run-of-the-mill off-the-rack purchase. In fact, I remember putting the standard 10-15 copies on the rack at the drugstore (after taking out my two copies, that is). No dealer hoarding whatsoever (as we 've heard about Conan #1). Most of us "kids" at the time couldn't find a copy of Conan #1 in the entire tri-town area.

[joe_collector]

Hulk 181 didn't really break out for a couple of years. HOS 92 was a high priced book foe quite awhile. The first appearance of Warlord was a big one, as well.

 

Man, I've got an old OS Guide to Collecting book from maybe 82-83 that i got for Xmas one year, and it lists the 20 most important 1970's book to invest in, and it's all stuff like Micronauts 1, Ka-Zar 1, Warlord 1, Man-Thing 1, etc. and I think Hulk 181 was 8th or something.

 

Hulk 181 was also the only book on the entire list that is worth anything now.

 

That's why I laugh when people say "I wish I was collecting in the 70's" because if they followed the "hot books", they'd all have boxes full of Micronauts, Ka-Zar, Man-Thing, Devil Dinosaur, Black Goliath, etc.

 

 

[joe_collector]

There was no real hype when IH 181 came out - I recall it being a run-of-the-mill off-the-rack purchase. In fact, I remember putting the standard 10-15 copies on the rack at the drugstore (after taking out my two copies, that is). No dealer hoarding whatsoever (as we 've heard about Conan #1). Most of us "kids" at the time couldn't find a copy of Conan #1 in the entire tri-town area.

 

That's because it wasn't a #1.

 

People forget how ingrained the "Number 1 Issue" phenomenon was back then, and it drove everything. Even kids would buy multiples of Ms. Marvel 1, PPSSM 1, Nova 1, etc. but there was no real basis for mid-run issues to spike. No one really cared about first appearances, post-SA, and just wanted the first issue of everything.

 

I believe at one time, ASM 1 was close, if not equivalent to the price of AF 15, as it was a #1 and got more attention. Lots of other characters with first apps in mid-run books, who got their own #1 title soon after (like Iron Fist or Spider-woman) had similar pricing, with the #1 much higher in relation to the first app. than was warranted.

 

Then the sportscard guys got involved in the mid-80's, took their "Rookie Card" mentality to comics, and all the "rookies" just exploded. Hulk 181 went from $25 to $500 almost overnight, ASM 128 went from a common to $250 very quickly, and everyone was "mining" for first appearances.

[chrisco37]

Yeah, IH #181 did explode. The first OS I bought was the one with the Superman cover (50th Anniv Superman). It was broken out, but wasn't (IIRC) maybe 30 or so. The next year (Batman cover) it was $75. That's a massive jump for OS in one year.

 

I think it was very similar to ASM #129 in that regard.

[joe_collector]

I just find it amusing that many new fans think "that's the way things have always been" when in the past, #1 issues, hot artists, new storylines, major changes, deaths, etc. were all more popular and valuable than similar-era mid-run first appearances.

 

I can remember many titles where a "Byrne Art" notation in the mid-to-late-80's carried the highest value for 100+ issues, while today it's the opposite.

 

And it's all because a pile of baseball card speculators transformed comics into a "rookie card" mentality.

[shadroch]

Or it could be people finally wised up and realized that since everyone collected first issues, maybe the wise choice would be to collect second issues, or first appearances. Its not like First .Appearances. were not a big thing- FF 48 and Avengers 4 and 57 were always premium books, as was TTA 27, Strange Tales 110 and J.I.M. 83. Avengers 9 and 43 were minor keys back then.

Its just that Frank Castle took years to develop into a hit. Spidey 129 came out in 74 and he didn't become a star until Miller wove him into the Daredevil series. I think Marvel was afraid of being sued by the Bolan people for years, so they slow played the character.

[joe_collector]

I was referring to why they all exploded in value, and left all the other "key issues" in the dust. Think about it, there is no rational reason why one comic is worth more than another, and it was the irrational "rookie card" phenomenon that caused the massive spike.

 

Sure first appearances were broken out, as were artists, character deaths, new stories, etc., but after the sportscard specs took over, all first appearances spiked (Avengers 4, ASM 14, etc.) - check the prices from 1987-89 - it was crazy and that was *exactly* the time that the sportscard speculators devoured comics.

 

 

I knew some of these guys, and they were constantly looking for unknown "rookie comics" to mine for, and then promote at their shops. It's certainly no coincidence how the trends changed so drastically to exactly mirror those of sportscards.

[shadroch]

They exploded because people decided that ASM 129 featuring The Punisher was much more important than 130 featuring the late Spider-Mobile. With so many titles containing 100 or more issues, folks stopped collecting the entire title and started concentrating on the keys.

 

[bronze johnny]

Let me add that perhaps another reason as to why this explosion took place had to do with the OSPG and listings for the more valuable Golden and Silver Age keys. Collectors during the early 70s for the first time had an authority or reference book that gave definition to key books in terms of value. When they looked at the OSPG and saw how valuable Action 1, Tec 27, AF 15, and FF 1 were compared to the lesser known books published during their time periods it became apparent that 1st appearances of characters were the way to go. Should make sense that Wolvie and Punisher might have the greatest chance to follow the standard set by their great Golden and Silver Age predecessors.

[shadroch]

Flash 105, Adventure 247, Brave and Bold 28, Amazing Fantasy 15, JIM 83, TTA 27, TOS 39, House of Secrets 92- Anyone see a pattern here?

First appearances were hot and desired long before the late 1980s.

[bronze johnny]

Agreed. And let me add that while comic companies can continue to publish number 1 issues over and over again, and kill characters only to reincarnate them, the one thing they can't do is publish a first appearance of Superman or Spider-man with a claim to disregard their 1st. apps in Action Comics 1 or ASM 1. Thank goodness they haven't figured out a way to do this so that they can get a short term increase in sales.

[joe_collector]

Guys, it's a well-known phenomenon that sportscard dealers and speculators invaded/took over the hobby starting around 87-88 or so and into the 90's, and brought with them their hobby's trend of valuating the "rookie cards" far in excess of any other card type.

 

I'm not making this stuff up (many OS advisors complained about this invasion vehemently in their comments), and you guys actually think it's a massive coincidence that the moment sportscard dealers descend on our hobby, that "first appearances" skyrocket in price, rising by many multiples per year, and all other metrics of the "old comic hobby" fall by the wayside?

 

Was anyone following the hobby circa 1987? The LCS's I went to were all owned by old sportscard dealers (who either opened up fresh, or expanded a card shop into comics) and I saw this happening first-hand, and witnessed them "mining rookie comics" right in front of my eyes, with them often asking me advice. Hulk 181 was one of their favorites (they couldn't believe it was only worth $25-$30) and within a few years it was a $500 comic.

 

Wow, I cannot believe people don't remember the Great Sportscard Invasion of the late-80's.

[divad]

Wow, I cannot believe people don't remember the Great Sportscard Invasion of the late-80's.

 

I was too busy getting laid . . .

[bronze johnny]

I miss the 80s...

[Chillax23]

So the pricing on GSXM 1 is kept in check by the high number of CGC copies (4,226) versus the lower numbers of X-Men 94 (3,282). This makes sense. So is it fair to say then that pricing on GSXM 1 is possibly over inflated and or will be capped because it is not overly rare (especially if one considers how many copies are still out there ungraded)?

 

Also, would this hold true for Incredible Hulk 181 - its price has increased rapidly in the last 10 years yet it has 5,184 copies on the census. So will we eventually see a collapse in the pricing of IH181 due to market saturation? Surely it cannot continue to rise as it has, with more and more copies being graded daily.

[joe_collector]

Wow, I cannot believe people don't remember the Great Sportscard Invasion of the late-80's.

 

I was too busy getting laid . . .

 

 

So you never got out of bed?

[fastballspecial]

Guys, it's a well-known phenomenon that sportscard dealers and speculators invaded/took over the hobby starting around 87-88 or so and into the 90's, and brought with them their hobby's trend of valuating the "rookie cards" far in excess of any other card type.

 

I'm not making this stuff up (many OS advisors complained about this invasion vehemently in their comments), and you guys actually think it's a massive coincidence that the moment sportscard dealers descend on our hobby, that "first appearances" skyrocket in price, rising by many multiples per year, and all other metrics of the "old comic hobby" fall by the wayside?

 

Was anyone following the hobby circa 1987? The LCS's I went to were all owned by old sportscard dealers (who either opened up fresh, or expanded a card shop into comics) and I saw this happening first-hand, and witnessed them "mining rookie comics" right in front of my eyes, with them often asking me advice. Hulk 181 was one of their favorites (they couldn't believe it was only worth $25-$30) and within a few years it was a $500 comic.

 

Wow, I cannot believe people don't remember the Great Sportscard Invasion of the late-80's.

 

I remember being pissed off in the early 90s by the influx of card dealers into my hobby. They ruined their hobby and tried damn hard to try to ruin mine back then. All a dealer had to do was tell me they used to deal in cards and I was gone from their booth. I particularly remember one who had all my Ultraverse mirror variants I wanted, but wanted $75 each for them.

 

The sad thing is some have come back again into our hobby the last few years with the influx of cash into movies.

 

 

[joe_collector]

I remember being pissed off in the early 90s by the influx of card dealers into my hobby.

 

That was the second phase of the invasion, mostly of sportscard dealers drawn by the money "new comics" represented, and I hated those guys. At least the late-80's sportscard/comic hybrid dealers were just diversifying and actually tried to learn about comics, while by the early-90's it was just $$$$.

[chrisco37]

 

Also, would this hold true for Incredible Hulk 181 - its price has increased rapidly in the last 10 years yet it has 5,184 copies on the census. So will we eventually see a collapse in the pricing of IH181 due to market saturation? Surely it cannot continue to rise as it has, with more and more copies being graded daily.

 

Nope. The book may level out (I doubt it), but there won't be a collapse in price.

 

It's the biggest Bronze key there is. It will always have a very strong market. It's always in demand.