Are These Restoration

[FFB]

You are a silly, silly man.

 

I thought you were in agreement with me on the trimming issue?

 

Not that it really matters as long as I know a books trimmed, I ain't buying.

 

On a slightly different note, what are collecting nowadays and did you get the grades on Harry's books?

 

I do agree with you on the trimming issue. I don't think it's restoration and that it should be graded as though the book is incomplete.

 

The "silly, silly man" comment comes from your statement that a book isn't "restored" unless you add something to it. In your definition, even if you take the book apart and press it, that still isn't restoration?

 

Also, if the book is not taken apart, but humidity is added to the paper and then it is pressed using controlled heat, doesn't that satisfy the "something ADDED to the book" requirement? Humidity and heat and pressure are being added.

 

As I told Harry, the books came back TOS#52 CGC APP. 7.0 OW trimmed bottom edge and TOS#53 CGC 7.0 OW-W.

 

Of course, I was just pulling his leg. The real grades were:

 

TOS#52: CGC 8.5 OW

TOS#53: CGC 8.0 OW-W.

Both blue labels.

 

You should have read Harry's PM when I told him that the #52 came back trimmed. Priceless! I am going to pay for that one someday, however.

[FFB]

Amen,

 

sfilosa, we know you don't agree with our assessment/position on pressing, but POV has certainly answered this question numerous times.

 

 

 

I like the fact that he says "in his opinion". What do you mean that bending a crease that folds back on the cover, doesn't structurally change the paper. I certainly disagree with that. In a way, it actually makes the crease "LESS" structurally sound but IMPROVES the APPEARANCE.

 

Oh, wait, that's the same argument that is used against PRESSING a book. Maybe you can't see that it's hurting the paper fibers (from the pressure and the heat) but in theory, you are saying it does (on a microscopic level).

 

All I can say is we agree to disagree.

 

I think that bending the curl back with your finger IS restoration. But like any restorative technique, the REAL question is: "Does anyone care?" As I've said a million times, the Purple Label has blinded many people to the fact that not all restoration is equally invasive. The fact that you curled a corner back is not a big deal to 99% of the people out there, but if you've removed a defect you have, technically speaking, "restored" the book.

 

But the point I am trying to make here is, the mere fact that the book has technically been "restored" in some insignificant way does not mean that the book should suddenly become a black sheep and lose 90% of its value -- or even necessarily ANY of its value.

 

It is frustrating to watch you guys argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead of even addressing the real issue -- assuming that the removal of any defect IS restoration (since you guys are never going to agree whether every technique falls within any definition of "restoration"), which restorative techniques SHOULD have an impact on the value of a book and which ones should not? and why or why not? This whole "is it or is it not pressed" debate is fine and dandy, but by treating a "pressed" book as a "bad" book without exploring the larger issue, all you are doing is making the "Purple Label Blindness" phenomenon worse by lumping slightly pressed books into the same basket with Franken-books.

 

Mark, your website's new policy is that you won't sell a book that has been pressed and that each submittor must provide you with written assurance that a book has not been pressed. Why does pressing get such special treatment, but not things like trimming, color touch, and other restorative techniques that we've seen CGC miss in the past (such as the trimmed Batman #11)? You are treating this restorative treatment as though it's more serious and invasive than color touch or trimming when, in truth, it isn't nearly as serious or invasive, nor as detectable with any certainty.

 

I had Matt Nelson press a book for my personal collection a while back and I can tell you with 100% seriousness that when I looked at the book when I got it back, it looked EXACTLY like every other non-pressed silver age book in my collection, right down to the subtle "curl" that new newsstand comics have at the centerfold/spine. The subtle surface impression that I wanted removed was gone, with no evidence of it ever having been there. It is not a pancake. Anyone who says that professionally pressed books look like pancakes is flat out full of sheet. If I put this book in a stack with 99 other books that I know not to have been pressed and asked Sue C. or anyone else to pick out the one that has been pressed, I would bet the rest of my collection that neither she nor they could do it.

 

EVERY comic book has been pressed at least twice before it hits the newsstands. What if a later restoration detection person decides to say that a formerly CGC-blue-labeled book was "pressed" at some point? What if they're wrong? For the sake of addressing something that most people don't care too much about, you're creating a huge open-tailed potential liability for your submittors (because as you know, the statute of limitations for fraud is tolled in many states until the victim discovers the fraud) when the "experts" who do the detecting can't even agree whether it's detectable in the first place.

 

At the end of the day, do I think pressing is restoration? Yes. Absolutely. 100% no question in my mind.

 

But on the real question of "Should professional pressing impact the value of a book," I say "NO." I do not believe that there are many 9.4s that could be pressed up to 9.6s or 9.6s that could be pressed to 9.8s. I think it is far more likely that a 5.0 can be pressed into a 7.0. But once it has been pressed to a 7.0 or a 9.6 or whatever, does it really matter to me as a potential buyer? For me, absolutely not.

 

As several people have said, this is a personal question that each buyer will have to decide after educating himself about what pressing really is. But until he has educated himself about how it works and what a pressed book actually looks like before and after, I don't want to hear about how he wouldn't pay 50% as much for a pressed book as he would for an unpressed book because he's speaking from a position of ignorance.

 

OK, end of

 

Talk amongst yourselves.

[sfilosa]

You had a book pressed?

 

Actually, congrats on the grades of Harry's books. I pretty sure that those were the grades I thought they would be, even though I think the #53 has better eye appeal (since the #52 had some Marvel tears at the top). One that note, I getting a #52 in CGC 8.5 from a board member. But I haven't rule out getting a 9.4 from you know who.

 

I for one, have not had a book pressed yet, but am seriously considering it. Will I disclose it, NO. I pay CGC to grade the book and check for "their definition of restoration". Now if someone wants to ask me do I know if the book has been pressed, I will tell them YES, simply because I don't lie (I could say no comment but that should disclose the answer).

[FFB]

Yes, I had a book pressed. So did Nearmint. Check Matt Nelson's ad in the new Overstreet, where he's got a testimonial about the grade bumps he got.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with restoring a book. I have owned restored books and see nothing wrong with them, though I would want to know in every case whether any work was done to a book. I do not believe that NDP-style pressing is akin to color touch, sealing tears, or solvent or aqueous cleaning. It is the most minor form of restoration there is in my mind, even more minor than erasure of pencil marks or "Wonder Bread" treatment to dirt on a cover. It is no different than taking your finger to a bent corner and working the paper so that the bend is gone. Yes, it's restoration, but no, I don't think it should affect the value of the book.

 

If I ever sell the book I had pressed (which won't happen for a very long time) I'll disclose that I had it professionally pressed and the book will be sitting in a blue labeled CGC slab. I'll bet you and anyone else dollars to doughnuts that it won't make a bit of difference in the sales price either. While I don't think people should be selling pressed books without disclosing the pressing, I don't think that it is worth an industry-wide witch-hunt to "smoke out" those who do press books or who refuse to sign a petition saying that they don't.

 

You had a book pressed?

 

Actually, congrats on the grades of Harry's books. I pretty sure that those were the grades I thought they would be, even though I think the #53 has better eye appeal (since the #52 had some Marvel tears at the top). One that note, I getting a #52 in CGC 8.5 from a board member. But I haven't rule out getting a 9.4 from you know who.

 

I for one, have not had a book pressed yet, but am seriously considering it. Will I disclose it, NO. I pay CGC to grade the book and check for "their definition of restoration". Now if someone wants to ask me do I know if the book has been pressed, I will tell them YES, simply because I don't lie (I could say no comment but that should disclose the answer).

[esquirecomics]

Mark, your website's new policy is that you won't sell a book that has been pressed and that each submittor must provide you with written assurance that a book has not been pressed. Why does pressing get such special treatment, but not things like trimming, color touch, and other restorative techniques that we've seen CGC miss in the past (such as the trimmed Batman #11)? You are treating this restorative treatment as though it's more serious and invasive than color touch or trimming when, in truth, it isn't nearly as serious or invasive, nor as detectable with any certainty.

 

No, FFB, that's not my policy at all. Frankly, I am not sure there is any difference of opinion between us on the restoration/pressing issue.

 

I neither object to the pressing of books (though I have no intention of doing it, and I think it is a crying shame to press a GA book that has looked so beautiful for decades), nor do I have any objection to the restoration of books. I would purchase restored books. And I agree 100% that restoration has an unfortunate and unfair stigma. I also view pressing as simply a minimalist form of restoration that should only slightly impact a $$$$ value, to those who care. Just this week I came to know of dealers asking people not to identify certain books as having possibly been pressed b/c of the potential downward financial impact on sales

 

My issue is, and always has been, one of disclosure. What bothers me most are the dealers/sellers who are intentionally pressing books for the pure sake of enriching their pockets and do not have the integrity to disclose that fact, yet speak out of the other side of their mouth belittling the impact of pressing. I simply have no respect for these people. Whew. That felt good.

 

In any event, both pressed and restored books alike are welcome on my site so long as that information is disclosed. The requirement I impose upon consignors is that they simply tell me what they know. This can be that a book was pressed, restored in some way, had restoration removed, or some other enhancement that led to the grade moving upwards (like my Military Comics #38 Mile High) or downwards (like my More Fun Comics #52 Rockford).

 

Feel better?

[FFB]

Mark, your website's new policy is that you won't sell a book that has been pressed and that each submittor must provide you with written assurance that a book has not been pressed. Why does pressing get such special treatment, but not things like trimming, color touch, and other restorative techniques that we've seen CGC miss in the past (such as the trimmed Batman #11)? You are treating this restorative treatment as though it's more serious and invasive than color touch or trimming when, in truth, it isn't nearly as serious or invasive, nor as detectable with any certainty.

 

No, FFB, that's not my policy at all. Frankly, I am not sure there is any difference of opinion between us on the restoration/pressing issue.

 

I neither object to the pressing of books (though I have no intention of doing it, and I think it is a crying shame to press a GA book that has looked so beautiful for decades), nor do I have any objection to the restoration of books. I would purchase restored books. And I agree 100% that restoration has an unfortunate and unfair stigma. I also view pressing as simply a minimalist form of restoration that should only slightly impact a $$$$ value, to those who care. Just this week I came to know of dealers asking people not to identify certain books as having possibly been pressed b/c of the potential downward financial impact on sales

 

My issue is, and always has been, one of disclosure. What bothers me most are the dealers/sellers who are intentionally pressing books for the pure sake of enriching their pockets and do not have the integrity to disclose that fact, yet speak out of the other side of their mouth belittling the impact of pressing. I simply have no respect for these people. Whew. That felt good.

 

In any event, both pressed and restored books alike are welcome on my site so long as that information is disclosed. The requirement I impose upon consignors is that they simply tell me what they know. This can be that a book was pressed, restored in some way, had restoration removed, or some other enhancement that led to the grade moving upwards (like my Military Comics #38 Mile High) or downwards (like my More Fun Comics #52 Rockford).

 

Feel better?

 

Maybe I was reading too much into the requirements you gave to me:

 

I only have a few requirements. First, the books must be CGC graded. Second, the books must be from between 1930-1963 (and preferably before 1956). Third, each book must be priced at $1,000 or more or CGC 9.0 and above (but not less than $250). Fourth, you must either provide me with written assurance that the book has definitely not been pressed or that you have no personal knowledge that it has been pressed. Fifth, any evidence that the specific book was previously another grade, whether due to resubmitting or restoration removal, must be disclosed.

 

I read the bolded section above to mean that for any book I consigned, I had to provide a written assurance that it hasn't been pressed or that I do not know that it has been pressed. Maybe for a Purple label book it wouldn't matter as long as it was worth over $1,000 or was 9.0 or better and worth more than $250, and in that case, it's just a matter of me being overly literal and you not being as specific as I expect lawyers to be.

 

But, in any event, I don't have any books that fit the rest of your criteria right now (maybe the Batman #52 if I get it slabbed and it comes back 7.5 or better) so I can't submit anything anyway.

 

I will say that after buying that Batman #52 I now have a growing desire to buy GA books, so maybe I'll be buying from you before too long instead of submitting books for sale. At least I'll know that I can sue the submittor if I find out later that the book might have been pressed!

[PovertyRow]

I think that bending the curl back with your finger IS restoration. But like any restorative technique, the REAL question is: "Does anyone care?"

 

In this, and pretty much only in this, Scott, we disagree. The reason being, as I have said time and again, the fibers that make up the literal strength of the paper (a brittle book simply means the fibers have been eaten away by acid so there is nothing left to maintain the structure of the page) - the fibers have leeway before they react to too much fold or bend and start to break. I mean, if you hold a sheet of paper horizontally it is going to bend. Paper is not stiff and rigid (well, most paper isn't and comic book paper certainly isn't.) So if a curl forms, I have no problem with uncurling it, as the core structure of the paper is not impacted.

 

But the point I am trying to make here is, the mere fact that the book has technically been "restored" in some insignificant way does not mean that the book should suddenly become a black sheep and lose 90% of its value -- or even necessarily ANY of its value.

 

I agree 100%. For how many years now have I been saying that people have to UNDERSTAND restoration, have to understand the various degrees of restoration, and should perceive these varying degrees for what they really ARE.

 

It is frustrating to watch you guys argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead of even addressing the real issue -- assuming that the removal of any defect IS restoration (since you guys are never going to agree whether every technique falls within any definition of "restoration"), which restorative techniques SHOULD have an impact on the value of a book and which ones should not?

 

I agree it is VERY frustrating. But I don't approach restoration from the perception of how it impacts the value of a book. I approach it simply as "is this process restoration?" - pure and simple. I don't understand why the concept of "value" is even brought INTO an "is this restoration" topic. To do so is premature.

 

To me the idea of whether a process is restoration should be first judged on its own merit. Then, the impact of such a process may be incorporated into the impact of such restoration on the value. But a canned "it is restored" so the value is x% has no validity.

 

Why does pressing get such special treatment, but not things like trimming, color touch, and other restorative techniques that we've seen CGC miss in the past (such as the trimmed Batman #11)? You are treating this restorative treatment as though it's more serious and invasive than color touch or trimming when, in truth, it isn't nearly as serious or invasive, nor as detectable with any certainty.

 

There is much here I agree with. But also some I tend not to (see the pretty much above.) Pressing can be more serious, in some ways, than color touching or trimming. And by this I mean in future consequences. Trimming? It is a hack thing. But it has no real impact on the structure of the book. Color touch? I feel more benign towards it if done properly (meaning no marker signs on the reverse).

 

But - and this may be a radical idea but I have been saying it for a while now - pressing can make a book appear as it once did but leave a weak spot: that is, the area pressed out. The thing is, to repeat myself, what creates that ding or crease is the breaking up of the fibers that give strength to the paper. Pressing may re-align those fibers, not in their original configuration (because their original configuration no longer exists) but in a new alignment that can make the offending crease disappear. But that process does NOT strengthen the area where the fiber breaks occur. In forming metal there is a similar process called annealing. The more you hammer or form metal, the more you compress the molecular structure and the metal can begin to appraoch a more brittle stage. By heating the metal to certian temperatures (based on the type of metal and the type of work done to it) and then quenching the hot metal in water, the molecular alignement is re-achieved and the metal is once again malleable. (This is the often seen on TV Westerns where the blacksmith heats and hammers a piece of metal, then heats it again and drops it into water.)

 

Unfortunately, paper is not like metal. The fibers can never be re-strengthened - well - maybe not never - there is a process I once studied maybe 10 years agho but I have not seen much if anything as to the long-term impact.

 

It goes something like this:

 

1) You have paper with the fibers eroded and approaching brittle

 

2) You preparte a methyl cellulose (using a fine grade German methyl cellulose) solution in distilled water.

 

3) You place the paper in a vacuum chamber.

 

4) You coordinate the release of the vacuum with the intorduction of the methyl cellulose solution. This causes the methyl cellulose solution to hit the ppaer under considerable pressure. The unusually fine methyl cellulose particles then adhere to the remaining fibers and strengthen them

 

5) The paper is then freeze-dried. This is a process where the resultant ,mixture of methyl cellulose and paper is frozen, and then using a freeze-dry process, it goes from frozen to gaseous state without passing through a liquid state.

 

Reports I read said the paper was more pliant (it passed the 2-fold brittle test) but was approximately 25% thicker, after the process. As I said, I never rerad much in the way of followup but a comic book 25% thicker may not be well recieved. But for a document or historical book, such a process may well be vaulable.

 

So why am I rambling about this? Because in all the years I self-studied paper restoration (and they have been many), this is the only process I have come across that actually targetted strengthening the actual cellulose fibers that give paper its strength.

 

A pressing, no matter how carefully done, is never gong to remotely approach this level of attention ot the paper fibers themselves. All it is going to do is make a vain attempt to "anneal" the fibers - the way the blacksmith or jeweler anneals metal - but even THAT is not correct.

 

I amintain, even at this date, that if the paper fibers have been broken, no pressing techniaue is going to undo the damage done. The pressing is going to be a purely aesthic result, but any weakness from broken fibers will remain. That is restoration.

 

The whole "uncurl it with your finger" does not incorporate broken fibers. It just takes under consideration the leeway inherent in cellulose fibers for flexibility. As I said earlier, this leeway does exist or else just gently rolling a comic cover or interior page a quarter of an inch or so would break the fibers. But such does not.

 

::phew:: - Apologies but there is even more.

 

But on the real question of "Should professional pressing impact the value of a book," I say "NO."

 

Ack! I say YES for the same reason I have always given.

Why do high grade books command so much more money? The answer is so blatant but so often ignored. It is because the odds of a book, and especially SA and GA, surviving intact in a raw, untouched high grade are quite slim. (Barring warehouse finds). These books, untouched by any process, deserve a special place simple because they have survived.

 

type edit to replace "was not broken" with "no longer exists"

[esquirecomics]

Maybe I was reading too much into the requirements you gave to me:

 

I only have a few requirements. First, the books must be CGC graded. Second, the books must be from between 1930-1963 (and preferably before 1956). Third, each book must be priced at $1,000 or more or CGC 9.0 and above (but not less than $250). Fourth, you must either provide me with written assurance that the book has definitely not been pressed or that you have no personal knowledge that it has been pressed. Fifth, any evidence that the specific book was previously another grade, whether due to resubmitting or restoration removal, must be disclosed.

 

I read the bolded section above to mean that for any book I consigned, I had to provide a written assurance that it hasn't been pressed or that I do not know that it has been pressed. Maybe for a Purple label book it wouldn't matter as long as it was worth over $1,000 or was 9.0 or better and worth more than $250, and in that case, it's just a matter of me being overly literal and you not being as specific as I expect lawyers to be.

 

No, you read that sentence correctly. I was only asserting that I wouldn't accept pressed books from you!

 

Actually, I was being very specific when I wrote that, and then I became very specific when I re-wrote my policy and listed it above. Don't lawyers have a perrogative to change their minds or rewrite their wording?

 

Hey, did I say my wife is about to deliver our child and things are really stressing around the house!!!!

[PovertyRow]

That is why I think something PHYSICALLY has to be ADDED that IMPROVES the book APPEARANCE AND / OR STRUCTURALLY (but wish this was only labeled PRESERVATION).

 

Something physically IS added, in real crease pressing, to improve ther APPEARANCE of the book.

 

Pressing will NEVER improve the structurte of a book - only the appearance. And as I have now said one or two times - if the stress is sufficient to break the fibers,. then the pressing to flatten out that fiber stress is merely APPEARANCE - it is NOT structural.

 

I know of no pressing process that increases the strength of broken cellulose fibers

.

See my really really long reply to FFB about vacuum methyl cellulose impregnattion. And other thoughts.

[Forbush-Man]

See my really really long reply to FFB about vacuum methyl cellulose impregnattion. And other thoughts.

 

Say that five times, really fast.

[FFB]

I think that bending the curl back with your finger IS restoration. But like any restorative technique, the REAL question is: "Does anyone care?"

 

In this, and pretty much only in this, Scott, we disagree. The reason being, as I have said time and again, the fibers that make up the literal strength of the paper (a brittle book simply means the fibers have been eaten away by acid so there is nothing left to maintain the structure of the page) - the fibers have leeway before they react to too much fold or bend and start to break. I mean, if you hold a sheet of paper horizontally it is going to bend. Paper is not stiff and rigid (well, most paper isn't and comic book paper certainly isn't.) So if a curl forms, I have no problem with uncurling it, as the core structure of the paper is not impacted.

 

When you have a minor corner bend, a finger dent in the middle of the cover, or whatever, the fibers are not "broken." When a comic cover or an entire comic book has a "wave" from slight moisture warping or from improper storage, the fibers are not broken. These are the primary defects that are often COMPLETELY removable by NDP pressing. So-called "color-breaking" creases (whether on a white background or actually in a colored area) are creases where the fibers have been damaged as opposed to just "bent." Those creases are not completely removable by NDP pressing anyway, so it isn't like anything has really been "removed undetectably."

 

Until I see a paper scientist or conservator tell me that a slight bend or wave (like from the aforementioned moisture warping) on a comic book results in permanent, irreparable damage to the paper fibers, I am not inclined to think otherwise. I do not think you are correct about this.

 

It is frustrating to watch you guys argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead of even addressing the real issue -- assuming that the removal of any defect IS restoration (since you guys are never going to agree whether every technique falls within any definition of "restoration"), which restorative techniques SHOULD have an impact on the value of a book and which ones should not?

 

I agree it is VERY frustrating. But I don't approach restoration from the perception of how it impacts the value of a book. I approach it simply as "is this process restoration?" - pure and simple. I don't understand why the concept of "value" is even brought INTO an "is this restoration" topic. To do so is premature.

 

To me the idea of whether a process is restoration should be first judged on its own merit. Then, the impact of such a process may be incorporated into the impact of such restoration on the value. But a canned "it is restored" so the value is x% has no validity.

 

You're never going to get everyone to agree with you on what is or isn't restoration though, because most people ARE focused on the whole "is it restored? If yes, then value = $x minus y%" formula. Since not all restoration is the same, it is more effective to simply say "is it color touched?" or "is it pressed?" and then let people decide whether and how much each such treatment will or should affect the value of the book. At least then we can see the end auction result and know for sure whether anyone cared, and if so, how much.

 

Why does pressing get such special treatment, but not things like trimming, color touch, and other restorative techniques that we've seen CGC miss in the past (such as the trimmed Batman #11)? You are treating this restorative treatment as though it's more serious and invasive than color touch or trimming when, in truth, it isn't nearly as serious or invasive, nor as detectable with any certainty.

 

There is much here I agree with. But also some I tend not to (see the pretty much above.) Pressing can be more serious, in some ways, than color touching or trimming. And by this I mean in future consequences. Trimming? It is a hack thing. But it has no real impact on the structure of the book. Color touch? I feel more benign towards it if done properly (meaning no marker signs on the reverse).

 

Trimming has no effect on the structure of a book? You are CHOPPING PIECES OFF THE BOOK. There is no "treatment" more invasive or more destructive to the structure of a book than trimming. I also don't see how you can say that color touch is less invasive than pressing. You're adding foreign material to the book to cover up missing chunks of color. At least when you press a book, all you've done is relax the paper fibers and force them to reform into their original "hot off the PRESSES" shape.

 

But - and this may be a radical idea but I have been saying it for a while now - pressing can make a book appear as it once did but leave a weak spot: that is, the area pressed out. The thing is, to repeat myself, what creates that ding or crease is the breaking up of the fibers that give strength to the paper. Pressing may re-align those fibers, not in their original configuration (because their original configuration no longer exists) but in a new alignment that can make the offending crease disappear. But that process does NOT strengthen the area where the fiber breaks occur.

 

Again, I've seen nothing but your say-so that "all bends result in broken paper fibers." I do not believe that this is the case for the more subtle bends, creases, and warping that don't break color and are completely removable by NDP pressing. Those that do break the paper fibers are not completely removable by NDP pressing, or even by full-disassembly pressing in many cases. Try it and see! The "weak spot" (i.e., the crease) is still visible.

 

Unfortunately, paper is not like metal. The fibers can never be re-strengthened - well - maybe not never - there is a process I once studied maybe 10 years agho but I have not seen much if anything as to the long-term impact.

It goes something like this:

1) You have paper with the fibers eroded and approaching brittle

2) You preparte a methyl cellulose (using a fine grade German methyl cellulose) solution in distilled water.

3) You place the paper in a vacuum chamber.

4) You coordinate the release of the vacuum with the intorduction of the methyl cellulose solution. This causes the methyl cellulose solution to hit the ppaer under considerable pressure. The unusually fine methyl cellulose particles then adhere to the remaining fibers and strengthen them

5) The paper is then freeze-dried. This is a process where the resultant ,mixture of methyl cellulose and paper is frozen, and then using a freeze-dry process, it goes from frozen to gaseous state without passing through a liquid state.

Reports I read said the paper was more pliant (it passed the 2-fold brittle test) but was approximately 25% thicker, after the process. As I said, I never rerad much in the way of followup but a comic book 25% thicker may not be well recieved. But for a document or historical book, such a process may well be vaulable.

So why am I rambling about this? Because in all the years I self-studied paper restoration (and they have been many), this is the only process I have come across that actually targetted strengthening the actual cellulose fibers that give paper its strength.

 

An interesting discussion, but none of this is necessary if you're pressing out subtle bends and creases that don't break the paper fibers.

 

I amintain, even at this date, that if the paper fibers have been broken, no pressing techniaue is going to undo the damage done. The pressing is going to be a purely aesthic result, but any weakness from broken fibers will remain. That is restoration.

 

So if you can remove a defect without leaving any weakness whatsoever, THEN it's not "restoration"?

 

The whole "uncurl it with your finger" does not incorporate broken fibers. It just takes under consideration the leeway inherent in cellulose fibers for flexibility. As I said earlier, this leeway does exist or else just gently rolling a comic cover or interior page a quarter of an inch or so would break the fibers. But such does not.

 

Who cares? You're still permanently removing a defect and "restoring" a book to its original condition.

 

But on the real question of "Should professional pressing impact the value of a book," I say "NO."

 

Ack! I say YES for the same reason I have always given.

 

You're entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is, but I think your opinion is based on a faulty assumption -- that pressing can permanently remove all evidence of a crease where the paper fibers were broken.

 

Why do high grade books command so much more money? The answer is so blatant but so often ignored. It is because the odds of a book, and especially SA and GA, surviving intact in a raw, untouched high grade are quite slim. (Barring warehouse finds). These books, untouched by any process, deserve a special place simple because they have survived.

 

type edit to replace "was not broken" with "no longer exists"

 

Then why do books with large numbers of high grade copies in the census still sell for a lot?

 

It's not about the "odds." It is about lots of people wanting nice copies in blue label slabs when there aren't enough nice copies around. If it were about the "odds," then every 9.8 Edgar Church book from 1946 would be worth the same as every other 9.8 Edgar Church book from 1946 -- and they aren't. And pressed/resubbed higher grade Edgar Church books with their formerly lower-grade scans in Heritage's archives would sell for less or the same as they did when they were lower grades -- and they don't.

[PovertyRow]

Just a brief sum up as, while an interesting topic of discussion - well - at least to me the effort is no longer worth it.

 

So anyway, I have never said a bend or a wave damages fibers. In fact I have more than once I used the bend concept as a demonstration of the inherent leeway in paper and fibers.

 

As far as trimming and structure - I think I am using the term "structure" differently than you - the inherent qualities of the book that give it strength. A tear can impact that, as can overflash or chipping or a spine split or brittleness etc. I mean, trimming won't weaken the book (unless it is done without care).. Actually it can trim away weak areas like overflash, marvel chipping etc. I am not defending trimming - I think it is a horrible thing to do to a book.

 

Again with color touch - some of it can impact the book like marker that actually penetrates the pages and requires special solvents etc to remove. A properly applied color touch lays more on the surface with minimal penetration into the paper.

 

So if you can remove a defect without leaving any weakness whatsoever, THEN it's not "restoration"?

 

Please do not assign to me leaps of logic based on a statement that is limited to a single idea. I said I amintain, even at this date, that if the paper fibers have been broken, no pressing techniaue is going to undo the damage done. The pressing is going to be a purely aesthic result, but any weakness from broken fibers will remain. That is restoration. I was strictly addressing this one single idea - broken fibers and pressing and restoraiton. In fact I have been saying for a long time now that to understand restoration it must not be blanketed into one big lump but each indvidual process should be adressed seperately. I don;t think I have directly addressed that opposite assumption you made above (remove without weakness). it is an interesting idea but again, each process should be looked at seperately.

 

You're entitled to your opinion just like everyone else is, but I think your opinion is based on a faulty assumption -- that pressing can permanently remove all evidence of a crease where the paper fibers were broken.

 

Haven't said that either. I have said it can ENHANCE THE APPEARANCE. Again, for a long time I have said fiber breaking creases leave weak spots. I have never said pressing can remove all evidence of a crease. I thought my opinion was clear on that. Apparantly not.

 

And finally, It's not about the "odds." It is about lots of people wanting nice copies in blue label slabs when there aren't enough nice copies around. If it were about the "odds," then every 9.8 Edgar Church book from 1946 would be worth the same as every other 9.8 Edgar Church book from 1946

 

I am simply saying that the high grade books are highly sought after, especially in light of their lower grade counterparts. These HG books have beat the odds in that they have survived, intact and in high grade, unlike their bretheren. I see nothing wrong with that statement. And as such, as having beaten the odds, they are often true rarities to survive untouched. And go for a lot more, again in contrast to the same book in lower gardes. Nor do I see anything wrong with believing that the core of this is that they DID beat the odds and survived. Because if they didn;t they would be LG books. But to say I am saying that a major superhero book from the 40's should have the same value as a Jumbo or Fight form the 40's? That is beyond absurd.

 

I'm not sure why the sense of semi-invective in some of this. Or at least it certainly feels that way. If you want to pick apart what I say please do, but please try to understand what it is I AM saying and pick THAT apart.

 

Thanks,

 

Pov

[FFB]

Just a brief sum up as, while an interesting topic of discussion - well - at least to me the effort is no longer worth it.

 

(SNIP)

 

I'm not sure why the sense of semi-invective in some of this. Or at least it certainly feels that way. If you want to pick apart what I say please do, but please try to understand what it is I AM saying and pick THAT apart.

 

Thanks,

 

Pov

 

Come on, Michael, you crazy-older-brother-from-another-mother, there's no invective, semi- or otherwise! I enjoy having these discussions with you because you're one of the few people who have actually done most of the restorative techniques that we're talking about. Well, that, and also because you feel so strongly about restoration that I can always bait you into a prolonged discussion on a topic that I find fascinating.

 

I think you're just taking it too personally that I'm disagreeing with a couple of things you said, i.e., (a) that slight bends necessarily irreparably harm paper fibers, and (b) that pressing can make creases with broken paper fibers disappear. I don't believe that either is necessarily true (and based on my own, personal observations, I don't think that (b) is true at all), and I don't think you should take it personally that I'm disagreeing with you.

 

The point of all of this is to further everyone's (including your and my) knowledge on the topic through discussion. About a year ago, I read something you wrote that I agree with 100% -- that most of the stigma and fear surrounding restored books comes from buyer ignorance about restorative processes. I know that my own reticence toward owning restored books has faded as I've learned more about the topic. As people learn more about the techniques, maybe then this silly "Purple Label Blindness" will fade and people can make INFORMED decisions about whether they want to have restored books in their collections. Maybe we'll also stop seeing nutty statements from people like "oh, when they press books they cram 10,000 pounds of pressure onto the cover." If you just up and abandon the discussion because you're frustrated with it, then how will we save the ignorants from themselves?

 

Besides, I know you well enough to know that you'll never willingly walk away from any discussion on restoration.

[PovertyRow]

I think you're just taking it too personally that I'm disagreeing with a couple of things you said, i.e., (a) that slight bends necessarily irreparably harm paper fibers, and (b) that pressing can make creases with broken paper fibers disappear.

 

That's not what I said! That's not what I said! That's not what I said! That's not what I said! That's not what I said! That's not what I said! That's not what I said! That's not what I said! That's not what I said!

 

Dang you know me better than I konw myself at times. I don;t think I would even unwillingly walk away from a resto discussion/argument/debate.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

But on the real question of "Should professional pressing impact the value of a book," I say "NO."

 

Why? I have no doubt in my mind that a true 9.8 should be worth more than its manipulated counterpart.

 

I do not believe that there are many 9.4s that could be pressed up to 9.6s or 9.6s that could be pressed to 9.8s. I think it is far more likely that a 5.0 can be pressed into a 7.0.

 

I've heard people state this on several occasions, and I would like to know what leads you to believe this. I would argue that there are many 9.2s being pressed into 9.6/9.8s. Rounded corners & non color-breaking creases are exactly the types of defects that will knock otherwise perfect books into the 9.0/9.2 realm.

 

But once it has been pressed to a 7.0 or a 9.6 or whatever, does it really matter to me as a potential buyer? For me, absolutely not.

 

Given the choice ....noone would pay the same price for a manipulated book, as they would for it's virgin counterpart.

 

As several people have said, this is a personal question that each buyer will have to decide after educating himself about what pressing really is. But until he has educated himself about how it works and what a pressed book actually looks like before and after, I don't want to hear about how he wouldn't pay 50% as much for a pressed book as he would for an unpressed book because he's speaking from a position of ignorance.

 

 

How the book looks isn't the key factor.

 

"Is the book PURE?"

 

That's the question.

[FFB]

But on the real question of "Should professional pressing impact the value of a book," I say "NO."

 

Why? I have no doubt in my mind that a true 9.8 should be worth more than its manipulated counterpart.

 

Then to you, it is. That doesn't mean that the rest of the buyers feel the same way.

 

I do not believe that there are many 9.4s that could be pressed up to 9.6s or 9.6s that could be pressed to 9.8s. I think it is far more likely that a 5.0 can be pressed into a 7.0.

 

I've heard people state this on several occasions, and I would like to know what leads you to believe this. I would argue that there are many 9.2s being pressed into 9.6/9.8s. Rounded corners & non color-breaking creases are exactly the types of defects that will knock otherwise perfect books into the 9.0/9.2 realm.

 

In my experience, any book with rounded corners is going to have spine corner dings and/or at least one or more spine stresses. That will keep any book out of 9.6/9.8. Most rounded corners will result in color loss that will keep a book out of 9.8 and usually out of 9.6 as well. I also had this same conversation with Matt Nelson a while back. That is where my statement comes from.

 

Since we're on the topic, perhaps you could show me a couple of Heritage resubs where a book went from a lower grade to a 9.8? Or maybe even just one of them?

 

But once it has been pressed to a 7.0 or a 9.6 or whatever, does it really matter to me as a potential buyer? For me, absolutely not.

 

Given the choice ....noone would pay the same price for a manipulated book, as they would for it's virgin counterpart.

 

I am saying that I would. I guess if I'm alone in this, that's still one more than "no one." Every significant book I buy from Metro I assume is pressed, regardless of whether it actually is pressed or not. Same with every book I buy from Jason Ewert and from ComicLink. I still pay a lot for their books. No less than I would pay for books from anyone else.

 

As several people have said, this is a personal question that each buyer will have to decide after educating himself about what pressing really is. But until he has educated himself about how it works and what a pressed book actually looks like before and after, I don't want to hear about how he wouldn't pay 50% as much for a pressed book as he would for an unpressed book because he's speaking from a position of ignorance.

 

 

How the book looks isn't the key factor.

 

"Is the book PURE?"

 

That's the question.

 

That "PURE" book has already been pressed at least twice at the factory. You, as a buyer, will never know that a book has been pressed if it is done correctly and the defects are virtually certain not to revert if professionally performed. What's more, pressing only removes the most subtle bends and creases. Anything that breaks paper fibers is still fully visible. Here's a scan of a couple of creases on the back cover of the book I had pressed. Are they gone? Is this book a 9.6/9.8 now? No.

 

 

Any book that has been professionally pressed is the same book as before with no foreign materials added. Can light NCB creases be pressed out by relaxing the paper fibers? Sure. But if you're careful, you can do the same thing to those creases by bending carefully with your fingers. A dinged corner? Wet your fingertips with saliva and pull lightly to straighten out the corner and then squeeze the corner between your fingers for a minute or so to flatten it out. Same effect as pressing. Is the book "tainted" now? Please. The only difference is that one is done crudely and the other is done by a professional using controlled heat and pressure and the same kind of moisture that was used in forming the paper in the first place (i.e., water). If you think that's a huge deal, then that's your opinion. I just don't agree. I think it is "restoration" of a sort, I just don't think that ALL restoration should have an impact on value.

[PovertyRow]

Wet your fingertips with saliva and pull lightly to straighten out the corner and then squeeze the corner between your fingers for a minute or so to flatten it out.

 

Hey Scott - I just read this. Are you serious here???

[FFB]

Wet your fingertips with saliva and pull lightly to straighten out the corner and then squeeze the corner between your fingers for a minute or so to flatten it out.

 

Hey Scott - I just read this. Are you serious here???

 

Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. You can seal tiny spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues with saliva too.

[PovertyRow]

Wet your fingertips with saliva and pull lightly to straighten out the corner and then squeeze the corner between your fingers for a minute or so to flatten it out.

 

Hey Scott - I just read this. Are you serious here???

 

Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. You can seal tiny spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues with saliva too.

 

And you've seen no impact to the gloss or cover surface from the wetting? That would concern me. Also the PH of the saliva. While it is ordinarily neutral or alkaline in a healthy person, it can be acidic. Plus it contains enzymes that help breakdown food (organic matter) which may not be dissimalr to paper - it is plant based.

 

Such things immediately running through my mind. .

[FFB]

Wet your fingertips with saliva and pull lightly to straighten out the corner and then squeeze the corner between your fingers for a minute or so to flatten it out.

 

Hey Scott - I just read this. Are you serious here???

 

Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. You can seal tiny spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues with saliva too.

 

And you've seen no impact to the gloss or cover surface from the wetting? That would concern me. Also the PH of the saliva. While it is ordinarily neutral or alkaline in a healthy person, it can be acidic. Plus it contains enzymes that help breakdown food (organic matter) which may not be dissimalr to paper - it is plant based.

 

Such things immediately running through my mind. .

 

It has no effect on gloss whatsoever. The original blunting and color loss are a different story, however. The trauma that bent the corner in the first place probably affected the gloss.

 

Human saliva breaks down carbohydrates, not cellulose. Cellulose is essentially undigestible to a human being. See here.

 

"Humans are unable to digest cellulose because the appropriate enzymes to breakdown the beta acetal linkages are lacking."