Are These Restoration

[PovertyRow]

Human saliva breaks down carbohydrates, not cellulose. Cellulose is essentially undigestible to a human being. See here.

 

Interesting to see lignin specified there too. "This fiber includes hemicelluloses, pectins, gums, mucilages, cellulose, (all carbohydrates) and lignin...". So if we eat our comic books we will have more fiber in our diet.

 

Still and all, concerend a about the PH and just the whole direct wet thing.

[PovertyRow]

Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. You can seal tiny spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues with saliva too.

 

I read this in work and was pretty flummoxed by it. The idea of saliva as a resto tool. Got home and got some 4-color circulars and pamphlets in the mail. I tried the saliva as instructed. This is just preliminary. Has a yellow and a red (red looked pretty muich 100% magenta and maybe 70% or more yellow. Tried the technique (using minimal saliva) on the yellow and really could see no impact. On the deep red, the difference was apparant. Not pop you in the eye apparant but apparant. A slight dulling and lessening of the red intensity. If you didn;t know what to look for it may well go unnoticed. Which makes me wonder about the effect on various colors ranging from light to deep.

 

One other point - when you say it can seal spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues (honestly not sure what a delamination issue is) I have to ask - for how long? If it DOES fix these issues is it permanent? Will it make the book look good for a while but whoever ends up with it will find the tears etc. starting to separate?

[FFB]

Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. You can seal tiny spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues with saliva too.

 

I read this in work and was pretty flummoxed by it. The idea of saliva as a resto tool. Got home and got some 4-color circulars and pamphlets in the mail. I tried the saliva as instructed. This is just preliminary. Has a yellow and a red (red looked pretty muich 100% magenta and maybe 70% or more yellow. Tried the technique (using minimal saliva) on the yellow and really could see no impact. On the deep red, the difference was apparant. Not pop you in the eye apparant but apparant. A slight dulling and lessening of the red intensity. If you didn;t know what to look for it may well go unnoticed. Which makes me wonder about the effect on various colors ranging from light to deep.

 

One other point - when you say it can seal spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues (honestly not sure what a delamination issue is) I have to ask - for how long? If it DOES fix these issues is it permanent? Will it make the book look good for a while but whoever ends up with it will find the tears etc. starting to separate?

 

Again, you are missing my point with all of this, Michael. I'm not saying saliva is an archivally sound restoration medium and I made no representations about whether it will or won't harm your comic book over the long haul. I have not said any of that. If you want to conduct scientific experiments on the soundness of saliva as a restoration medium or test how long a slight tear seal lasts when sealed with saliva that is great, but it isn't what I was talking about. (And it's not really a "tear seal" anyway -- it's more just relaxing the adjoining fibers so that they stay next to each other instead of being frayed. The tear is still there.)

 

My point, again, was that for things like slightly blunted corners, you can sometimes accomplish as much to fix a slightly blunted corner with fingertips slightly dampened with saliva as you can with a professional pressing. The slight color loss (and/or loss of gloss) from the trauma that blunted the corner in the first place is still there. The blunting itself can be lessened or completely gone, depending on how bad it was. This is the exact same result as you'd get from straightening out a corner with a professional pressing job. The paper is flattened and that is all. Pressing does not replace the missing color or gloss either. It just flattens the paper.

 

Now, if I fixed a corner with my fingers and then told someone "hey, that corner used to be slightly blunted but I straightened it out with my fingers" no one would be lighting torches and waving pitchforks, yelling to encase the book in a purple label slab. But if I use a tacking iron to straighten out the corner, all of a sudden the book deserves a scarlet letter/PLOD? That strikes me as more than a little nuts. Has the book technically been "restored" if I straighten out a blunted corner with my fingers? Absolutely. Should it have any effect on the value of the book in its condition? Some say yes. I say no and I think the majority of people in the hobby would agree.

 

P.S. A "delamination issue" is when the top layer of paper and ink separate from a below layer or layers of paper.

[PovertyRow]

OK, I read that. Also the delamination issue (I was picturing the old paperback books that were actually laminated or the gloss caoting from some new books that actually have an extra gloss layer.)

 

Just so we (meaning the boards as well), while I appreciate the "pure" books that have not even had a pressing done to them, I also feel the pressing out of bends, curls and the like - the more benign pressings, should indeed have little impact on the book's value. All part of the "get restortion out of a single umbrella and appreciate each aspect for what t actually is."

[Ze-man]

 

Now, if I fixed a corner with my fingers and then told someone "hey, that corner used to be slightly blunted but I straightened it out with my fingers" no one would be lighting torches and waving pitchforks, yelling to encase the book in a purple label slab. But if I use a tacking iron to straighten out the corner, all of a sudden the book deserves a scarlet letter/PLOD? That strikes me as more than a little nuts. Has the book technically been "restored" if I straighten out a blunted corner with my fingers? Absolutely. Should it have any effect on the value of the book in its condition? Some say yes. I say no and I think the majority of people in the hobby would agree.

 

 

Hope you dont mind if I jump in on this one, I am just going to address the finger -vs- iron part of your post.

 

To me.. the main difference between unbending a curl with your finger....or using a tacking iron.. is that when you use your finger to unbend a corner.. it is VERY minimal what you can acctually accomplish.

And if you are really not pleased with the end result.

Then that is what the tacking iron was made for.

To do things with heat and pressure that you cannot do with just your finger.

 

So as you said.. unbending a corner is not really all that big a deal.. and should not really factor into the end sale price at all.

But if you take it a step further.. break out the iron.. apply heat, and pressure to remove things you could not do with just your finger.. well then that is manipulating the comic with more then just natural occourences.. you are using a tool..coupled with skill to try and remove things that might possibly detract from the book selling for top dollar.

 

Now how that factors into all this mess.. and how different people might view this practice seems to be the crux of this entire issue. And since we cannot detect it easily.. then I guess while it really does affect the price.. we will never really know how much it really did, or did not.

 

Whats done is done.. the book is what it is...... and only the person who had it ironed/pressed can answer if the book sold for more after pressing out a bend.

 

 

Ze-

[PovertyRow]

What about trimming?

 

I believe you and I agree on this one. It is a piece missing from the book, and therefore should be downgraded. I guess depending on how much trimming has occured, the book would fall in the Poor to maybe up to VG range (but not sure).

 

Or of course the Qualified Green Label, similar to the Strange Tales #127 Pacific Coast copy that got a Green 9.0 label, but had a half dollar size piece out of the back cover.

 

That is why I think something PHYSICALLY has to be ADDED that IMPROVES the book APPEARANCE AND / OR STRUCTURALLY (but wish this was only labeled PRESERVATION).

 

I'm consistent in my view (but that doesn't mean people can't disagree).

 

 

Yo Dude!

 

OK, a couple of simple questions to start the ball rolling.

 

You speak of ADDING something to the book. Let me ask you, do you consider adding humidity to a book, in order to impact the cellelose fibers and help them bend to your way, adding something?

 

So you consider adding humidity (and I am talking higher degrees of humidity than you would find in July in Bosotn or similar- or even wrose - Calcutta in their summer season - adding something to the book ?)

 

Would you consider adding heat that would make your finger jerk away from the heat source after say, 5 or 10 seconds, adding something to the book?

 

Does "adding soimething" have to mean adding foreign physical material, or can it also mean adding environmental factors the book would never see without human restorative intervention?

[PovertyRow]

Michael. I'm not saying saliva is an archivally sound restoration medium and I made no representations about whether it will or won't harm your comic book over the long haul. I have not said any of that.

 

OK - hopefully am out of work Gehenna for a while but want to address this, Scott, in more detaiul than Dante allowed earlier.

 

Again, you are missing my point with all of this, Michael. I'm not saying saliva is an archivally sound restoration medium and I made no representations about whether it will or won't harm your comic book over the long haul. I have not said any of that.

 

Seriously, Scott, It would be good to just say that saliva is not a recognized archival process. In your initial post you said Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. Cwith saliva too.

 

The "not as professional as" did not take it nout of the realm of professional restoration - it kind of left a gap, which I shoulder-torgued at and responded to.

 

Also the "Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. You can seal tiny spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues with saliva too..." pieced sounded fairly definitive.

 

I know you know from my posts I tend to be really - how to say it nicely - well - no way to say it nicely - anal about restoration. There have been too many truly "professional" restioration and conservation techniques that have proven more hramful than helpful.

 

You probably remember the big buzz about VPD - Vapor Phase Deacidification - where sheets of VPD paper were inserted between comic book pages to deacidify. Turned out, over the long run, these pages altered colors and ultimately failed at their deacidification goal.

 

Some time ago the USSR developed a spray that was amazing. Newsprint it was sprayed on stayed white for years. This was big news for a while, until the newsprint started turning both brown and brittle over a few years went by.

 

I confess to being ignorant on the carb vs fiber impact of saliva. But individual diets can greatly vary saliva from Alkaline to Acidic.

 

In my anal way, I would suggest anyone using saliva on a comic to first pick up some PH paper and gauge their individual saliva's acidity.

 

Also, while saliva is almost mostly water, it does contain other components. Such components will be left on the paper based on the technique you explained.

 

So now we have other factors. One of the keys of archival substances, rice paste, wheat paste, methyl cellulose, archival glues, etc. is the exactitude of their composition. TGo achieve a true archival standard these substances have to adhere to an archival standard. I honestly don't see saliva ever achieving such a standard because individual diet will impact said saliva.

 

I honestly am not trying to trash you here.As I said, work has been preventring me from making full replies etc but now we are on the weekend and I can start posting things I have wanted to post. This be one of them. I just feel that if something is going to be brought into the realm of even the slightest of restoration, certain standards must be adhered to and explored.

 

[FFB]

Michael. I'm not saying saliva is an archivally sound restoration medium and I made no representations about whether it will or won't harm your comic book over the long haul. I have not said any of that.

 

OK - hopefully am out of work Gehenna for a while but want to address this, Scott, in more detaiul than Dante allowed earlier.

 

Again, you are missing my point with all of this, Michael. I'm not saying saliva is an archivally sound restoration medium and I made no representations about whether it will or won't harm your comic book over the long haul. I have not said any of that.

 

Seriously, Scott, It would be good to just say that saliva is not a recognized archival process. In your initial post you said Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. Cwith saliva too.

 

The "not as professional as" did not take it nout of the realm of professional restoration - it kind of left a gap, which I shoulder-torgued at and responded to.

 

Come on, Michael, don't be obtuse. Do you really need me to confirm for you that professional restoration artists are not spitting on our comics? I think that what I said was fine for the purpose for which I said it.

 

Also the "Yes, it works. Really. It's not as "professional" as doing it with a tacking iron, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it'll lessen the defect considerably. You can seal tiny spine flakes and tears and fix minor delamination issues with saliva too..." pieced sounded fairly definitive.

 

It is definitive because it does work. You CAN flatten out a blunted corner in the way I described. You can also get small tears and delams to stick together. The paper on one side will stick to the paper on the other side. But if you jiggle it lightly, it comes apart. What is this semantical debate about, anyway? If you don't believe me that it works, try it on some beater books and see for yourself. Use a dab of distilled water instead of spit if you need to.

 

I confess to being ignorant on the carb vs fiber impact of saliva. But individual diets can greatly vary saliva from Alkaline to Acidic.

 

In my anal way, I would suggest anyone using saliva on a comic to first pick up some PH paper and gauge their individual saliva's acidity.

 

Also, while saliva is almost mostly water, it does contain other components. Such components will be left on the paper based on the technique you explained.

 

I am lost. Why are we having this discussion? I never said that spit was safe or not safe, archival or not archival. All I said was that if you lick your fingers and pull out a blunted corner, you get the same "result" in terms of appearance as a professional pressing, except no torches and pitchforks from the rabblerousers who want every restored book in a purple label slab. You want to tell me that spit isn't archival quality? OK, I believe you.

 

So now we have other factors. One of the keys of archival substances, rice paste, wheat paste, methyl cellulose, archival glues, etc. is the exactitude of their composition. TGo achieve a true archival standard these substances have to adhere to an archival standard. I honestly don't see saliva ever achieving such a standard because individual diet will impact said saliva.

 

Oh, come on. You're making it sound like these things are made in a top secret laboratory or something. You can make wheat paste with one tablespoon of wheat starch to 5 tablespoons of distilled water, microwave for 30 seconds, stir, then microwave again and stir again and repeat until it's as stiff as you want it to be. It's not rocket science. It's wheat starch paste.

 

You could probably even make it with 1 tablespoon of wheat start to five tablespoons of spit. Well, except for the whole enzyme digestion thing. And the fact that spit may or may not be "archival."

 

I honestly am not trying to trash you here.As I said, work has been preventring me from making full replies etc but now we are on the weekend and I can start posting things I have wanted to post. This be one of them. I just feel that if something is going to be brought into the realm of even the slightest of restoration, certain standards must be adhered to and explored.

 

Trash me for what? I would have to have said what you are attributing to me for me to take offense at this long reply. And I didn't. What I did say, and you can check this out yourself if you want, is that you can wet your fingers with saliva and "unblunt" a blunted corner on a comic -- and that if you do so, the lynch mobs will not come for you. If you are uncomfortable with my "saliva" reference, then dampen your fingers with distilled water instead.

[Ze-man]

Can you 2 start over please?

 

Both of you try this approach...

 

Scott.."Hey.. did you know you can use spit to re- attach small comic defects, and bindery tears?

 

Pov... "Really?.. no kiddin..kewl.. had never thought of it like that before. !"

 

Scott- " yeah.. it is obviously a very basic repair technique .. but it does have some effect"

 

Pov- Really?.. kewl!.. .. can you buy it?"

 

Scott - " Nope..it is man made brother..!"

 

Pov- "really?..kewl.!. good to know"

 

Scott- " Wanna come over and see how I went about doing it? and split a bottle of wine?"

 

Pov.." Sure.. kewl!!"

 

 

End Story

 

 

 

Kenny

[FFB]

Can you 2 start over please?

 

Both of you try this approach...

 

Scott.."Hey.. did you know you can use spit to re- attach small comic defects, and bindery tears?

 

Pov... "Really?.. no kiddin..kewl.. had never thought of it like that before. !"

 

Scott- " yeah.. it is obviously a very basic repair technique .. but it does have some effect"

 

Pov- Really?.. kewl!.. .. can you buy it?"

 

Scott - " Nope..it is man made brother..!"

 

Pov- "really?..kewl.!. good to know"

 

Scott- " Wanna come over and see how I went about doing it? and split a bottle of wine?"

 

Pov.." Sure.. kewl!!"

 

 

End Story

 

 

 

Kenny

 

I must be speaking Chinese because despite having said it a few times, you aren't getting the point I was trying to make either. Forget I mentioned the saliva, ok?

[Ze-man]

I was kiddin ya Scott.. I did get your point.

 

But after trying to read both your and Pov's lengthy posts.. going round and around... and around again.

I took the easy way out with my parody... and went with the saliva take.. since Pov was stuk on it..(so to speak)

 

Sorry..

 

 

Ze-

[PovertyRow]

Kewl!

[Ze-man]

Kewl!

 

 

That has to go down as the shortest , yet well thought out post you have ever made!

 

 

Kewl Dude

[PovertyRow]

Kewl!

 

 

That has to go down as the shortest , yet well thought out post you have ever made!

 

 

Kewl Dude

 

[FFB]

Kewl!

 

Does this mean you're not even going to try out the technique? All that arguing and you won't even try it.

[PovertyRow]

Kewl!

 

Does this mean you're not even going to try out the technique? All that arguing and you won't even try it.

 

I will definitely try it out. I have some old junkers that would be ideal - or I can even make them ideal! No arguing. Just exchanging of ideas and opinions.

 

PS - have been trying to fnd a place that has Traditional Balsamic Vinegar of Modena but no luck so far. Know any in-city places that may have it?

[FFB]

Kewl!

 

Does this mean you're not even going to try out the technique? All that arguing and you won't even try it.

 

I will definitely try it out. I have some old junkers that would be ideal - or I can even make them ideal! No arguing. Just exchanging of ideas and opinions.

 

PS - have been trying to fnd a place that has Traditional Balsamic Vinegar of Modena but no luck so far. Know any in-city places that may have it?

 

I would try either Molinari's delicatessen on Columbus in North Beach or maybe even Williams-Sonoma in Embarcadero 2. Williams-Sonoma seems to have a good selection of Balsamic whenever I'm there. Molinari's is almost certain to have it. The Italian deli in the Ferry Building is another possibility -- it's owned by the same family that owns Molinari's, but I haven't been inside yet to check out their selection.

[PovertyRow]

Funny - I hit the Ferry Building today - pricey place but always fun. I found a nice 10 year old "Balsmaic Vinegar of Modena" (La Piana) for $20/250ml. Nicely sweet but balanced. Will make an excellent salad dressing or for cooking. Scoured the Ferry Building but those 100ml Traditionals were not in sight. A trip to North Beach sounds in order. I am down to my last bottle of traditional (brought back some from last trip to Italy) and shudder to be without.

[Ze-man]

PS - have been trying to fnd a place that has Traditional Balsamic Vinegar of Modena but no luck so far. Know any in-city places that may have it?

 

 

Almost all of the Balsamic Vinegar made in the world is from Modena

(well till recently anyhow)

 

And by traditional do you mean the sticky stuff that comes in a smalish 2 oz. bottle that you drizzle on fruit, and cured meats?

Or the harsher stuff that might be used to make a Balsmic Vinaigrette, that we in the states are so fond of?

 

I would recommend buying it online.

 

Stay away from Fini.. overpriced, harsh

 

 

The true gift to food is a good Sherry Vinegar

 

Ze-

[PovertyRow]

I'm seeking the true "traditional balsamic vinegar from modena". Yes, the stull that comes in those plumb 100ml bottles and is priced insanely - usually $75-150 per bottle. I'm quite impressed with this new regular balsamic I got. Softly sweet with a good balance.