When buying in person, how well do you examine the book before purchasing it?

[shadroch]

okay,heres a hypothetical for all to ponder

 

After spideysense posted several times about his purchases at a show,I bought a book off of him, I believe it was a First apperance Spectre from the Silver Age.I bought it to flip and I did,making a profit of some 30%,if I recall correctly.Now,suppose I hadn't flipped it.Knowing now,that some of his books were restored,could I ask for a refund? Or could I apply a magic marker to it,submit it to CGC and then ask for a refund plus my CGC fees? Can my buyer return it to me for a refund based on Spideys admission that some of his books were restored? Where do we draw the proverbial line in the sand?

[SpideySense-migration]

okay,heres a hypothetical for all to ponder

 

After spideysense posted several times about his purchases at a show,I bought a book off of him, I believe it was a First apperance Spectre from the Silver Age.I bought it to flip and I did,making a profit of some 30% (SpideySense inserting ),if I recall correctly.Now,suppose I hadn't flipped it.Knowing now,that some of his books were restored,could I ask for a refund? Or could I apply a magic marker to it,submit it to CGC and then ask for a refund plus my CGC fees? Can my buyer return it to me for a refund based on Spideys admission that some of his books were restored? Where do we draw the proverbial line in the sand?

 

First of all, in spite of my recent discoveries from my CGC submissions Always trust SpideySense to do the right thing! Plus both restored comics came from the same lot of the 15 comics I bought from the same dealer (your comic wasn't 1 of those 15). All my other 20+ books I received back that day were not restored and bought from many other different dealers. I am guessing the dealer I bought those 15 from got a bad batch of comics from someone else.

 

Seriously though, like someone else already mentioned, if a book is found to be restored it should be returned in a reasonable amount of time like whatever the normal turn around time to have a book CGC'd (I was told 2-3 months at the show for my economy submissions). After all the discussion I must admit I am starting to feel a little guilty about asking for a refund due to a small amount of color touch on the covers of the 2 comics in question. BTW, what is a small color touched TOS #52 CGC 8.5 and Defenders #2 CGC 9.2 worth? Is a minor color touched comic worth 10, 25, 50, 75 or 90% of an unrestored comic?

[Mr. Zipper]

Further, the "dealer" by default assumes some level of "expertise" and a reasonable buyer should be able to infer that a book being sold at un-restored prices is indeed "un-restored" and the dealer has taken some due diligence in inspecting HIS merchandise before pricing and selling it.

 

How do you take due diligence to learn restoration? There's NOTHING published to teach it to you, and this dearth of information is the entire reason certification is so viable to begin with.

 

Since almost all but the most hardcore of dealers aren't great at detecting resto, I don't see how all sellers can practically go through any reasonable diligence to check a book over for restoration. I've been VERY diligently trying to learn it for years, and I'm still not great at it.

 

Restoration isn't rocket science. With a modicum of effort, a dealer could apply himself and learn to detect all but the most deceptive restoration. I have reviewed dozens of restored books, in every case the restoration was detectable on close inspection. There is nothing magic about it.

 

By "due diligence", I mean that I expect a professional dealer to have some level of expertise in his chosen field, hence he'll be able to detect most restoration, and pratice due diligence by inspecting his books for restoration before they are offered for sale. When he makes a mistake and one slips through, a professional will make good to the buyer.

 

If we don't hold professional dealers to this minimal level of standards, then what separates them from the CutiePies on eBay? Nothing.

[BassGMan]

Further, the "dealer" by default assumes some level of "expertise" and a reasonable buyer should be able to infer that a book being sold at un-restored prices is indeed "un-restored" and the dealer has taken some due diligence in inspecting HIS merchandise before pricing and selling it.

 

How do you take due diligence to learn restoration? There's NOTHING published to teach it to you, and this dearth of information is the entire reason certification is so viable to begin with.

 

Since almost all but the most hardcore of dealers aren't great at detecting resto, I don't see how all sellers can practically go through any reasonable diligence to check a book over for restoration. I've been VERY diligently trying to learn it for years, and I'm still not great at it.

 

Restoration isn't rocket science. With a modicum of effort, a dealer could apply himself and learn to detect all but the most deceptive restoration. I have reviewed dozens of restored books, in every case the restoration was detectable on close inspection. There is nothing magic about it.

 

By "due diligence", I mean that I expect a professional dealer to have some level of expertise in his chosen field, hence he'll be able to detect most restoration, and pratice due diligence by inspecting his books for restoration before they are offered for sale. When he makes a mistake and one slips through, a professional will make good to the buyer.

 

If we don't hold professional dealers to this minimal level of standards, then what separates them from the CutiePies on eBay? Nothing.

 

Zip, but the thing is, comic dealers are not certified with some kind of license stating that they have professional or skilled practices in selling comics. Some do, some are terrible, and all in between. You cannot go buy a comic from a dealer at a con and expect the same kind of service as you'd get from a big business, or at least you should not expect it. Sounds good, but not realistic.

All dealers treat their books different. One dealer may give a thorough examination to all books $100 and over, where another may have the time to go over each book (that's not in a 25 cent bin) with a fine tooth comb. I've seen some dealers with grading notes on a price sticker for a $5 comic, and I've seen $200 comics with interior ripped page and not priced to reflect the tears, with no notation of the defect on the sticker (maybe the dealer never even looked ).

And Zip, you say that you can see the resto and that there is nothing magical about it, then why not take it upon yourself to inspect EVERY book before you buy it to guarantee that you don't buy any resored books (I'm sure you do)? Apparently you have better resto detection skills than many others, so why hold that against them if one slips by you?

One thing I am noticing here, and on other similar threads, is that we are going to have divided opinions based off of the collectors and the collector/dealers. Collectors who do not sell will have a bias favoring them, obviously. The collector/dealers here (generally speaking, there are always exceptions) that see it from both sides, IMO are going to have a more fair view of the situation.

And I agree with someone who stated it before, in many cases the dealer SHOULD make good on a deal (assuming that he trusts the buyer for not pulling some kind of switcheroo or touching it up himself since he changed his mind and doesn't want the book anymore) but at the same time should not be OBLIGATED too, given the buyer had plenty of time to make a full examination. ----Sid

[fantastic_four]

If we don't hold professional dealers to this minimal level of standards, then what separates them from the CutiePies on eBay? Nothing.

 

I still must refer you back to the reality of the business--you can count the number of dealers who meet your expectations on one hand, or two at the most. And I still argue that there just is NO source for a dealer to learn restoration like you say. NONE! The people who know it well are either exceptional researchers, learned it from other people via word-of-mouth and in-person instruction, or learned it by practicing restoration themselves. The touchstone is this--you almost NEVER see dealers--even high-grade dealers--guarantee that books are unrestored. Why's that? It's something they almost never think about, or even if it is something they're concerned with because they deal in vintage books, they're never entirely sure.

 

Which dealers do you buy from raw that can detect resto?

[BassGMan]

Well I, as a small dealer, am pretty dang sure that I have unknowingly sold lightly CTed books. None that I know of for sure, but since I have received some PLODs back from CGC, I'm sure I have others that I sold raw that were touched as well . And I've paid unrestored prices for restored books, and thus have (probably) sold them as unrestored as well. I see it as all part of the game. We honest dealers try to avoid it, but certainly they get through.

 

That's what CGC is here for, to take the gamble out of the game. And that is why they get so much business. So if you want to play with raw books, go in knowing that there are no guarantees, and take it upon yourself to inspect each book as carefully as you can. Just don't expect the dealer to be any more aware of the possibilities of resto than you are as a buyer.