Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[drbanner]

Doc, I don't necessarily see the conflict and as I want to try and address every legitimate issue that is raised can you elaborate on your concern.

 

Let's say the book is submitted to CCS for restoration removal, whatever that might be. The submitter requests that the book then be sent to CGC for grading and it is sent back to the submitter as a restored book. Obviously the submitter would be unsatisfied which is why CCS would attempt again to safely remove whatever restoration remains - at no additional charge. The book would then go back to CGC for regrading - at no additional charge.

 

I suppose under certain circumstances that would be influenced by the amount of time involved in the process as well as the specific book in question it is possible that CGC might know that the book came from CCS.

 

But what would that mean in terms of a potential conflict in your eyes (or anyone else who wishes to weigh in)?

Gotcha. (thumbs u

 

If the book goes from submitter to CCS/CGC and back and forth internally until it gets a blue label, the graders will certainly know the work was done in house (assuming the book doesn't have to "get back in line" for pressing and grading as if it was a fresh submittal).

 

If the graders/Friesen know where the book is coming from, there's a direct COI in that there's financial incentive for them to get that book out of the pipeline with the highest blue label possible asap to save time/money, to promote their internal business, and to increase their revenue since grading fees are based on FMV.

 

More globally, the other questions/points allude to preferential treatment and insider information given to CCS. Of course if the integration of the pressing/resto removal/grading process was not an inherent conflict of interest, there would be no need for your external oversight to begin with!

[Icculus308win]

Forgive me for not reading through the 230 some pages now -

 

But has Cole Schave been quoted on what he thinks of his books now?

Were they all manipulated when he owned them or after consigning? (Again forgive me if this is common knowledge now)

 

I just thought since the gent obviously had an eye for nice copies, what he thinks of the fugliness about them now, if this was done post his ownership.

 

Cole Shave is like Steve Bartman (Cubs reference as I see you are from there), he hasn't been seen since. Doug Schmell bought a large chunk of his collection and resubbed them to CCS/CGC. The feeling is he would not be happy with these books. To take it even a step further I doubt that the collocter Doug Schmell of years past would not have wanted these books for his collection.

 

Couldn't have been explicated any better.

Thank-you.

(Great reference btw!)

[Icculus308win]

 

I feel bad for Mr. Schave, he originally hand picked some butes.

A shame.

[comicwiz]

Doc, I don't necessarily see the conflict and as I want to try and address every legitimate issue that is raised can you elaborate on your concern.

 

Let's say the book is submitted to CCS for restoration removal, whatever that might be. The submitter requests that the book then be sent to CGC for grading and it is sent back to the submitter as a restored book. Obviously the submitter would be unsatisfied which is why CCS would attempt again to safely remove whatever restoration remains - at no additional charge. The book would then go back to CGC for regrading - at no additional charge.

 

I suppose under certain circumstances that would be influenced by the amount of time involved in the process as well as the specific book in question it is possible that CGC might know that the book came from CCS.

 

But what would that mean in terms of a potential conflict in your eyes (or anyone else who wishes to weigh in)?

Gotcha. (thumbs u

 

If the book goes from submitter to CCS/CGC and back and forth internally until it gets a blue label, the graders will certainly know the work was done in house (assuming the book doesn't have to "get back in line" for pressing and grading as if it was a fresh submittal).

 

If the graders/Friesen know where the book is coming from, there's a direct COI in that there's financial incentive for them to get that book out of the pipeline with the highest blue label possible asap to save time/money, to promote their internal business, and to increase their revenue since grading fees are based on FMV.

 

More globally, the other questions/points allude to preferential treatment and insider information given to CCS. Of course if the integration of the pressing/resto removal/grading process was not an inherent conflict of interest, there would be no need for your external oversight to begin with!

 

I find this scenario pertinent to bring up in this discussion, and had this exact same thought run through my mind when I first asked Mark about the way certain submissions would be handled between CCS and CGC.

 

I think most people here have resigned to recognizing threads like this are more about managing perceptions and expectations than influencing actual policy and business decisions for CCG.

 

I'm leading in with this point because if the handling of a situation is perceived to be benefiting CCS clients, even if it's limited to the kind of scenario which gets CCS clients at the front of the line when their books need a few more waves of the wand to convince graders it's deserving of a blue label, the part about managing perceptions can turn into an onerous balancing act.

 

Especially when the community has been up in arms about over a dozen books from the same submitter experiencing a grade improvement while their condition appears to have worsened.

[Bomber-Bob]

I feel bad for Mr. Schave, he originally hand picked some butes.

A shame.

 

+1 This should not have happened.

[mrwoogieman]

I feel bad for Mr. Schave, he originally hand picked some butes.

A shame.

 

+1 This should not have happened.

 

I don't feel bad for him at all. Let's not forget that it was his choice to sell them to Schmell in the first place.

 

 

[VintageComics]

I feel bad for Mr. Schave, he originally hand picked some butes.

A shame.

 

+1 This should not have happened.

 

I don't feel bad for him at all. Let's not forget that it was his choice to sell them to Schmell in the first place.

 

 

I did talk to Doug in NYC and he told me he heard about this thread.

 

All he said to me in a nut shell was that he dropped the books off to have them pressed like he has always done. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Icculus308win]

Yeah, I don't think pinning anything on Doug, or whoever it could have been dropping the books off - is the problem here.

[Bomber-Bob]

Yeah, I don't think pinning anything on Doug, or whoever it could have been dropping the books off is the problem here.

 

Correct, this thread had nothing to do with Doug, only his books.

Roy, Doug must have noticed the look of the books. I know people told him they would not be bidding on the books because of the look. He's much too good of a businessman to simply shrug this off. LAst time we send you to find out the scoop !

[VintageComics]

LAst time we send you to find out the scoop !

 

You are also free to ask him any questions you want answered. In fact everybody is.

 

(thumbs u

[Bomber-Bob]

LAst time we send you to find out the scoop !

 

You are also free to ask him any questions you want answered. In fact everybody is.

 

(thumbs u

 

The only time he has ever even acknowledged me was when he wanted the box of slabs I was looking at in a dealer's booth. I'm nobody I tell ya.

Actually, it sounds like you have verified something, that he submitted the books to CCS.

[VintageComics]

LAst time we send you to find out the scoop !

 

You are also free to ask him any questions you want answered. In fact everybody is.

 

(thumbs u

 

The only time he has ever even acknowledged me was when he wanted the box of slabs I was looking at in a dealer's booth. I'm nobody I tell ya.

Actually, it sounds like you have verified something, that he submitted the books to CCS.

 

Anybody is free to contact him through his website and ask him questions.

 

He didn't tell me who pressed the books but after reading this thread, isn't it evident that CCS did?

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

LAst time we send you to find out the scoop !

 

You are also free to ask him any questions you want answered. In fact everybody is.

 

(thumbs u

 

The only time he has ever even acknowledged me was when he wanted the box of slabs I was looking at in a dealer's booth. I'm nobody I tell ya.

Actually, it sounds like you have verified something, that he submitted the books to CCS.

 

Anybody is free to contact him through his website and ask him questions.

 

He didn't tell me who pressed the books but after reading this thread, isn't it evident that CCS did?

 

 

Yes. Or so I thought....

[jimbo_707]

I am not alone in the thinking. I still stick with three grade level drop for the shrunk covers.

 

Three levels regardless of severity? I presume not--so how much for 1/16"? 2/16"? 3/16"?

 

Someone said that a book with a subscription crease gets a 5.5. I wouldn't go that low on otherwise high grade books with only slight shrinkage, but to me, the worst cases of shrinkage make a book look worse than a fine-yet-color-breaking subscription crease.

 

What I would propose for blue label grades is as follows*:

*(I'm not sure how CGC rounds, but I'm assuming here that they round to the nearest increment but round up when equidistant between two increments.)

 

1) Detectable shrinkage less than 1/32" = 0.4 point deduction on books that would be 9.8 or higher, 0.2 point penalty on books 9.6 or 9.4, no penalty on books 9.2 or below

10.0 => 9.6

9.9 => 9.6

9.8 => 9.4

9.6 => 9.4

9.4 => 9.2

9.2 => no penalty

 

2) 1/32" - 1/16" shrinkage = ADDITIONAL 0.6 point deduction on all books down to 8.0

10.0 => 9.0

9.9 => 9.0

9.8 => 9.0

9.6 => 9.0

9.4 => 8.5

9.2 => 8.5

9.0 => 8.5

8.5 => 8.0

8.0 => 7.5

7.5 => no penalty

 

3) 1/16" - 1/8" shrinkage = ADDITIONAL 1.0 point deduction down to 6.5, 0.5 point deduction on books otherwise 6.0 to 5.5, no penalty on books 5.0 and below

10.0 => 8.0

9.9 => 8.0

9.8 => 8.0

9.6 => 8.0

9.4 => 7.5

9.2 => 7.5

9.0 => 7.5

8.5 => 7.0

8.0 => 6.5

7.5 => 6.5

7.0 => 6.0

6.5 => 5.5

6.0 => 5.5

5.5 => 5.0

5.0 => no penalty

 

4) 1/8" - 3/16" shrinkage = ADDITIONAL 1.0 point deduction down to 5.0, 0.5 point deduction on books otherwise 4.5 to 4.0, no penalty on books 3.5 and below

10.0 => 7.0

9.9 => 7.0

9.8 => 7.0

9.6 => 7.0

9.4 => 6.5

9.2 => 6.5

9.0 => 6.5

8.5 => 6.0

8.0 => 5.5

7.5 => 5.5

7.0 => 5.0

6.5 => 4.5

6.0 => 4.5

5.5 => 4.0

5.0 => 4.0

4.5 => 4.0

4.0 => 3.5

3.5 => no penalty

 

[Mark Zaid]

Doc, I don't necessarily see the conflict and as I want to try and address every legitimate issue that is raised can you elaborate on your concern.

 

Let's say the book is submitted to CCS for restoration removal, whatever that might be. The submitter requests that the book then be sent to CGC for grading and it is sent back to the submitter as a restored book. Obviously the submitter would be unsatisfied which is why CCS would attempt again to safely remove whatever restoration remains - at no additional charge. The book would then go back to CGC for regrading - at no additional charge.

 

I suppose under certain circumstances that would be influenced by the amount of time involved in the process as well as the specific book in question it is possible that CGC might know that the book came from CCS.

 

But what would that mean in terms of a potential conflict in your eyes (or anyone else who wishes to weigh in)?

Gotcha. (thumbs u

 

If the book goes from submitter to CCS/CGC and back and forth internally until it gets a blue label, the graders will certainly know the work was done in house (assuming the book doesn't have to "get back in line" for pressing and grading as if it was a fresh submittal).

 

If the graders/Friesen know where the book is coming from, there's a direct COI in that there's financial incentive for them to get that book out of the pipeline with the highest blue label possible asap to save time/money, to promote their internal business, and to increase their revenue since grading fees are based on FMV.

 

More globally, the other questions/points allude to preferential treatment and insider information given to CCS. Of course if the integration of the pressing/resto removal/grading process was not an inherent conflict of interest, there would be no need for your external oversight to begin with!

 

I find this scenario pertinent to bring up in this discussion, and had this exact same thought run through my mind when I first asked Mark about the way certain submissions would be handled between CCS and CGC.

 

I think most people here have resigned to recognizing threads like this are more about managing perceptions and expectations than influencing actual policy and business decisions for CCG.

 

I'm leading in with this point because if the handling of a situation is perceived to be benefiting CCS clients, even if it's limited to the kind of scenario which gets CCS clients at the front of the line when their books need a few more waves of the wand to convince graders it's deserving of a blue label, the part about managing perceptions can turn into an onerous balancing act.

 

Especially when the community has been up in arms about over a dozen books from the same submitter experiencing a grade improvement while their condition appears to have worsened.

 

From what I interpret from these posts, there is an indication of at a minimum an appearance of a "conflict of interest" (and I use quotes because from a business standpoint this doesn't exist under the circumstances, it is a policy/perception issue with potential customers) or an outright existing conflict of interest based on unethical practices.

 

I am, I trust understandably, eliminating the latter without any evidence of proof from anyone that any CGC employee is unethically granting grades or restoration decisions, i.e., lack thereof, that are undeserved.

 

But on the other aspect let me turn this around to you both - what would you (or anyone who would like to weigh in please) have done by CCG/CGC/CCS in the scenario we are discussing to eliminate your concerns of a "conflict of interest"?

 

Besides, of course, shutting down or selling CCS or whatever other action would remove CCS from the parent umbrella or CGC sister relationship, which obviously is not an option.

[drbanner]

Joseph's scenario is different from mine, but the simplest way for CGC to mitigate the inherent conflict of interest in pressing/removing resto/dry cleaning/etc books in-house and then grading the quality of their own work is to be truthful about what they have done to the book by including such information on the label (or, at a minimum, including that information with the for-fee grader's notes).

 

The resto removal issue doesn't come into play unless there is indeed an iterative internal feedback loop for books CCS works on ("Sorry Matt, I still see color touch on this book so give it another shot. " - Chris Friesen). A one-pass policy with the book going back to the customer would alleviate the issue a little bit as this would require the customer to take it up with CCS if the book fails to garner a blue label, and not for CCS to take it up with the graders. The problem is that the firewall between the two operations burns down if the book bounces back-and-forth between the front of the shop and the back of the shop until it gets the "right" answer. I'd be curious to hear what the policy is in this situation as I don't believe it's ever been brought up, but I may have missed it.

[jimbo_707]

Joseph's scenario is different from mine, but the simplest way for CGC to mitigate the inherent conflict of interest in pressing/removing resto/dry cleaning/etc books in-house and then grading the quality of their own work is to be truthful about what they have done to the book by including such information on the label (or, at a minimum, including that information with the for-fee grader's notes).

 

The resto removal issue doesn't come into play unless there is indeed an iterative internal feedback loop for books CCS works on ("Sorry Matt, I still see color touch on this book so give it another shot. " - Chris Friesen). A one-pass policy with the book going back to the customer would alleviate the issue a little bit as this would require the customer to take it up with CCS if the book fails to garner a blue label, and not for CCS to take it up with the graders. The problem is that the firewall between the two operations burns down if the book bounces back-and-forth between the front of the shop and the back of the shop until it gets the "right" answer. I'd be curious to hear what the policy is in this situation as I don't believe it's ever been brought up, but I may have missed it.

One way around this would be if they could simply get consistent at detecting pressing.

 

-They already use their best judgment on whether a book has been cleaned.

 

-They already use their best judgment on whether a book has had the staples replaced.

 

-They already use their best judgment on whether a book has been micro-trimmed.

 

I don't believe for a minute that they get it right 100% of the time in those cases. (Does anyone?) I'm sure they miss an occasional treatment, just like I'm sure they punish a book unfairly on occasion.

 

I would not expect them to be perfect at detecting pressing, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't make the effort. I believe pressing is detectable in most cases.

 

They may miss some instances of pressing. So what? The instances they miss will tend to be lighter, less aggressive pressings anyway.

 

If they occasionally label a book as pressed even though it hasn't been intentionally pressed, chances are it has sustained damage similar to pressing. For instance, maybe some kid had it in between two books in a book case and then jammed a couple of books too many onto the same shelf because he had too many books and no place to put them. And maybe it stayed there for the entire duration of a hot, humid summer. The book has been pressed - sort of - right?

 

All it would take for them to detect pressing would be to establish criteria, which in some cases might require looking at the book under a microscope. With the proper set-up, the costs should be minimal.

 

As a compromise, maybe they don't have to do it on every book. Maybe a pressing check could be optional on the part of the submitter - with a book that passes the test denoted by check mark of some kind or a special black label. (Or maybe a white label for a "virgin" book?) Books that fail the test could simply revert to a blue label.

 

Under that kind of system, there would be an incentive not to press a book, and the blue label books would eventually be looked at as pressed. People with blue-label books that they're sure are not pressed would rush to re-submit before they sell.

 

Think of all the money to be made!

 

 

[BEAUMONTS]

"But on the other aspect let me turn this around to you both - what would you (or anyone who would like to weigh in please) have done by CCG/CGC/CCS in the scenario we are discussing to eliminate your concerns of a "conflict of interest"? "

 

The conflict of Interest "thingy" is more of a distraction at this point. The "primary" concern is these Fugly Fugging comics... Fix this and worry about the details later.

[VintageComics]

One way around this would be if they could simply get consistent at detecting pressing.

 

Not directed harshly at anyone in particular but this thread is a circle jerk of biblical proportions because many of the people involved keep restarted circular discussions that have been more or less closed.

 

In your example of pressing vs. restoration methods like cleaning, professional pressing is detectable on a much smaller scale than any of the other things you are mentioning. At best, if you roll the dice it's a 50/50 guess but using physical criteria more likely much lower (as in approaching 0%, as in less than 50%).

 

Additionally, even taking the sample of the small percentage of possibly detectable pressed books, some books can exhibit professionally pressed qualities even though they have not been pressed.

 

Now does anybody want CGC taking a less than 50/50 guess at anything? How about less than 50% of 50%?

 

The rest of the things you mentioned are detectable to a much higher degree...greater than 50% and closer to 100%

 

Since pressing is not accurately detectable it will never be considered worth trying to detect.

 

Case closed.

[jimbo_707]

One way around this would be if they could simply get consistent at detecting pressing.

 

 

...some books can exhibit professionally pressed qualities even though they have not been pressed.

 

Did you read my entire post? Because I addressed this point.

 

Since pressing is not accurately detectable it will never be considered worth trying to detect.

This is very myopic. Just because you do not know how to detect it does not mean that it can't be done. Susan Cicconi has stated that she believes can detect pressing most of the time. I believe it could be as detectable as micro-trimming, etc., with the proper equipment.

 

I also think you overlooked my last suggestion - which was that some books could be certified as unpressed. That is very different from labeling books as pressed and would not require 100% detection - only the crème de la crème would make the cut.