Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[comicwiz]

I often wondered what made the trimmed Honus Wagner card the anomaly, as it was alleged to have been trimmed long before PSA graded it. I believe the Mastro link, as well as other dubious activity brought forward through consumer complaints, festered to the point where the Feds got involved. My hunch is that it culminated from a rare combination of the people, and the money involved, and with the people aspect, the possibility that some close connections existed between victims and enforcement, all aligning to make that case the exception.

 

It's because Mastro himself trimmed the card and represented it as unaltered when it sold in his own auction, wasn't it?

 

That was partly the problem, but it didn't help PSA graded it as unaltered (8/10 NM-MT) in 1991. Here is an ownership timeline for "The Card":

 

 

I've read some articles that claimed that one of Mastro's charges was trimming the card in addition to the one count of mail fraud, but that sounds insane. It's not illegal to trim a baseball card, but it is illegal to trim a baseball card and sell it claiming that it's not trimmed. So the mail fraud makes sense, but some charge related to the actual trimming just doesn't.

 

It is a dramatic story, with lots of interesting turns and allegations (documented too) that Mastro "would say anything to save himself." The story below suggests PSA was playing both sides. In public, a member of the PSA said they knew the card to be trimmed. But in private, the allegation from an invitation-only luncheon was that the same person from PSA believed the card was unaltered.

 

The more interesting part was the redress commitment PSA allegedly made to restore the owner if the truth came out that the card was trimmed. That last quote in the story (if he actually said it at the luncheon) is comedy gold:

 

PSA stays mum about Honus Wagner T206 in public, but not in private

 

When a federal grand jury in Chicago indicted sports memorabilia executives Bill Mastro and Doug Allen on fraud charges last month, the first question many collectors and dealers asked was “What does this mean for PSA?”

 

PSA is Professional Sports Authenticators, the Southern California grading service that declared the world’s most famous and expensive baseball card – a Honus Wagner T206 once owned by NHL star Wayne Gretzky -- an eight on a scale of 1-10 in 1991.

 

The indictment claims that Mastro trimmed the card, which would make it significantly less valuable. Mastro’s lawyer has said that he expects the case against his client will be resolved without a trial, suggesting that Mastro is not only cooperating with the authorities, but will eventually acknowledge that he did indeed alter the card.

 

As we wrote in “The Card,” our book about the T206 Wagner and corruption in the hobby, a member of the PSA team that graded the card acknowledged that he knew the card was trimmed. Visitors to the National Sports Collectors Convention in Baltimore last week say an FBI agent spent a lot of time at the company’s booth at the Baltimore Convention Center questioning PSA president Joe Orlando.

 

PSA has not publicly commented on the allegations in the indictment or in our book and newspaper articles. Orlando and David Hall, the president of Collectors Universe, PSA’s parent company, have not responded to requests for interviews.

 

But a mole who attended PSA’s invitation-only lunch at the National says the indictment and the allegations about the card were the main topic of discussion. Also, our spy tells us, the chicken Marsala was quite good.

 

Our mole says about 150 collectors and dealers attended the lunch, held Friday at the convention center. Hall, he says, got up and said he had to address the “800-pound gorilla in the room” – the indictment.

 

“He asked for a show of hands and said, ‘Anyone here see the Wagner?’ A bunch of hands go up. Then he asked, ‘Has anyone seen it outside its holder?’ And he is the only one with his hand up.

 

“He takes out a magnifying glass and says ‘I have examined every aspect of that card. The only question we had was if it should be a PSA 7 or a PSA 8. We never considered that it had been altered,” our spy says.

 

Hall, according to our source, told his audience that they should question Mastro’s motives; Mastro might have agreed to say the card is trimmed as part of a deal with prosecutors. “He was suggesting you can’t believe Mastro, because now he will do anything to save himself,” our spy says.

 

Hall, according to our mole, also said Bill Hughes, the member of the grading team who told us he knew the card had been trimmed, has denied making those comments. Hall, our spy says, claims Hughes says it is an “out and out lie” that he knew the card had been trimmed.

 

Hall, our source added, also said PSA stood by its grade and would compensate the owner if it is proved that the card had been trimmed. But he didn’t say if the company would pay $300, the fee it charges to grade cards worth $10,000 or more, or the $2.8 million current owner Ken Kendrick paid for it in 2007.

 

For the record, we stand by our work, too.

 

Our spy also tells us that Hall said PSA has paid out $13 million to people who have cards that have been misgraded. “My thought was, you’ve screwed up a lot if you’ve paid out $13 million,” he says.

 

Hall, our spy adds, did not take any questions.

 

“Here’s David Hall,” our mole concludes. “The ship is sinking and he’s saying, ‘Look at the beautiful sunset and not at the water we are taking on.’”

[fantastic_four]

I'm a bit skeptical of the claim about PSA without knowing how Hughes knew the card was trimmed--I'd have to assume he heard it directly or indirectly from Mastro himself somehow if he knew. I presume the trim is one that's impossible to detect, just as is the case with comics, but I don't follow cards so I have no real idea. I'm not sure any non-additive restoration/manipulation/destruction technique is completely detectable...none jump to mind.

[comicwiz]

I'm a bit skeptical of the claim about PSA without knowing how Hughes knew the card was trimmed--I'd have to assume he heard it directly or indirectly from Mastro himself somehow if he knew. I presume the trim is one that's impossible to detect, just as is the case with comics, but I don't follow cards so I have no real idea. I'm not sure any non-additive restoration/manipulation/destruction technique is completely detectable...none jump to mind.

 

It's pretty unbelievable to think he was quoted in a book, and then denied what he said at the luncheon. For context, that luncheon occurred at a time when it was pretty well known Mastro was going to confess, or had already confessed, so Hall's reaction might have been knee-jerk and influenced by PSA going into damage control mode. In the past I was misquoted in a mainstream news story, but I made 100% certain the reporter/editor were made aware of the mistake and my displeasure, and asked them to issue a statement of correction. They never did, but I do have the email acknowledging they made the error.

[wasonff]

I know Mark Zaid posted saying he was in a dialogue with CGC and would post here agaqin, but I have not seen him come back here, did I miss a post?

 

Mark? what happened to the dialogue? I hope no one tar and feathered you or anything.

 

Nah, they just figured if they waited it out, the problems would just magically disappear, and the boards would lose interest. It's hard to sustain negative emotions over a long period of time, which has happened here.

 

A few posts of lip service to slightly quell the mob seems to have sufficed in this instance.

 

With all due respect, I don't give lip service to anything or anyone. Nor do I let anything fade away without being addressed as promised.

 

My apologies to everyone for the delay but that is on me, not CGC. I have been very occupied in dealing with Benghazi issues. I trust the murder of a US Ambassador is understandably a legitimate distraction.

 

I will be back on this issue as soon as I can.

 

With all due respect Mark, perhaps you have too much on your plate.

 

Regards,

Drew

 

Tell me something I don't know Drew.

 

Fair enough Mark (thumbs u I've met you. You're an intelligent guy. I would hope that would bring a measure of introspection as well. Ask yourself, if you don't have the time to devote to this issue, then perhaps its time to step aside.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

I'm a bit skeptical of the claim about PSA without knowing how Hughes knew the card was trimmed--I'd have to assume he heard it directly or indirectly from Mastro himself somehow if he knew. I presume the trim is one that's impossible to detect, just as is the case with comics, but I don't follow cards so I have no real idea. I'm not sure any non-additive restoration/manipulation/destruction technique is completely detectable...none jump to mind.

 

It's pretty unbelievable to think he was quoted in a book, and then denied it at the luncheon. For context, that luncheon occurred at time when it was pretty well known Mastro was going to confess, or had already confessed, so Hall's reaction might have been knee-jerk and influenced by PSA going into damage control. In the past I was misquoted in a mainstream news story, but I made 100% certain the reporter/editor were made aware of my displeasure, and asked them to issue a statement of correction. They never did, but I do have the email acknowledging they made the error.

 

He would have to be insane to publicly admit he knew the card was trimmed even if there was no indictment unless he wanted PSA to get creamed--the indictment against Mastro just makes it far more of a no-brainer. Him being quoted in a book isn't enough evidence even if the book's author testified that he made the statement directly to him.

 

But if there was proof he knew, PSA could be liable in a suit. Not sure there's a criminal case there, but probably a civil one for a lawsuit.

[Aman619]

Im confused. Everybody knows the card is trimmed. But, these articles seem to imply that Mastro trimmed an edge of the card.

 

the truth is that the ENTIRE card was trimmed "way back when" (before slabbing etc) from an UNCUT SHEET of cards. Thats why it was in such great condition. Wasn't this discussed in the book about the card? This was told to me by the head guy at Fleer back in the early 90s when the card surfaced for sale.

 

Is the Mastro fuss really all about him trimming it again? Because the "card" has never been anything except a hand-trimmed down piece of an uncut sheet, and according to the timeline above, Mastro may have been the guy who trimmed it out initially.

 

is that this initial full trimming what Mastro admitted to doing?

[comicwiz]

It is a confusing situation. And indeed it was rumoured to be a trimmed card, but those rumours escalated around the time McNall and Gretzky purchased the card and the deal received worldwide attention. As I see it, most of the confusion probably arises from the fact that PSA pretty much extinguished the validity of those rumours when it graded it and gave it the stamp of approval that is was an unaltered specimen. It wasn't until the FBI started looking into the matter, which included a lengthy discussion and visit in April of 2012 at a Baltimore convention with Joe Orlando at the PSA booth, that the original rumour was again revisited. The whole controversy and debate over whether it was actually trimmed wasn't finally put to rest until Mastro admitted he trimmed the card.

[Aman619]

did he admit to "trimming" as we speak of re-trimming a side or two of a manufactured card?

 

or did he admit to cutting it from the uncut sheet?

 

or is it that he was quoted as only stating that "yes I trimmed it" w/o specifying which crime he was admitting he committed?

 

because as I said earlier, back in 91 when the card gained notoriety as "the most valuable card in the world", guys high up in the card business knew (or claimed to all know) where the card came from. And from then on, it was given a pass as a "real card".

 

If the truth is bothering people now, its an argument that all misdeeds eventually get exposed over time.

 

 

Sems to me that is that timeline graphic is accurate, the guy to talk to is the guy who sold the card to Mastro in the late 80s. If that guy sold a card, HE cut the sheet, and Mastro maybe perfected the trim. But if that guy sold the uncut sheet, that leaves Mastro holding a cool sheet of cards with a missing rectangle.

[jimbo_707]

There is no question in my mind, especially with the enterprising way this hobby transformed itself from being a disposable medium to "stash for big cash" pursuit that it will be a matter of time before consumers concerns about being screwed by undisclosed manipulation will snowball into something big.

Anybody have any idea what's different about comics, as opposed to coins, sports memorabilia or autographs when it comes to consumer protections or investigation efforts?

 

It can't be the money, because there's a LOT of money involved now and that's routinely trumpeted in news articles. Common knowledge, so it must be something else. Is it some residual attitude about comics being silly kid's fare? Or is it the lack of highly prominent participants?

 

There's some difference, whatever it is, that allows the marketplace for grade-certified comics to remain completely ungoverned. There's zero punishment-risks and plenty of reward enticements compared to all those other collectibles markets. No authorities watching whatsoever. But why is that?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Apparently nobody who's been victimized by a Wilson book or a Ewert book has made enough noise yet with law enforcement. The same situation exists for shill bidding; I believe there are people sitting in prison right now for shill bidding on other collectibles, but I've never heard of anyone going to jail for shill bidding on comic books. (Hopefully that will change in the near future.)

[ComicConnoisseur]

There is no question in my mind, especially with the enterprising way this hobby transformed itself from being a disposable medium to "stash for big cash" pursuit that it will be a matter of time before consumers concerns about being screwed by undisclosed manipulation will snowball into something big.

Anybody have any idea what's different about comics, as opposed to coins, sports memorabilia or autographs when it comes to consumer protections or investigation efforts?

 

It can't be the money, because there's a LOT of money involved now and that's routinely trumpeted in news articles. Common knowledge, so it must be something else. Is it some residual attitude about comics being silly kid's fare? Or is it the lack of highly prominent participants?

 

There's some difference, whatever it is, that allows the marketplace for grade-certified comics to remain completely ungoverned. There's zero punishment-risks and plenty of reward enticements compared to all those other collectibles markets. No authorities watching whatsoever. But why is that?

No big rich whale comic book collector has been upset enough to call the proper authorities. When the authorities got involved in the baseball card or coin scandals it was because some rich whale coin or baseball card collectors with gobs of money felt like they were being screwed, so they wanted retribution.

An example is not much will be done if Joe Average Collector complains that his comic book was altered, but when Joe Big Whale Collector complains then the proper authorities might take notice. IMHO

[Straw-Man]

The Wilson-ized example below is but another that displays the characteristics discussed herein and elsewhere.

 

Acquired in a state of age produced by years of ownership, it underwent reconstructive treatment which created an apparent high-grade appearance.

 

Initially sold as a raw FN/VF copy via Heritage, it resurfaced as a CGC 9.2 in the recent Beverly Hills auction. However, that was not before pgcmint attempted to liquidate same via eBay in September of this year.

 

 

 

 

All-American Comics #65 (DC, 1945) Condition: FN/VF

 

All-American Comics #65 (DC, 1945) CGC NM- 9.2 Off-white pages

 

Is it wrong of me to think the book actually looks better in the after photos? The spine roll was simply corrected. It appears that the spine, cover edges and pages line up in a manner more approximating what the publishers were actually striving for. It looks to me like a darn pretty book.

 

 

you're going to hell.

[Comicopolis]

We all are.

[batman_fan]

People interesting in the Wagner card should read this book

 

The Card: Collectors, Con Men, and the True Story of History's Most Desired Baseball Card

 

It provides a pretty good summary of what went on with it.

[MrBedrock]

The Wilson-ized example below is but another that displays the characteristics discussed herein and elsewhere.

 

Acquired in a state of age produced by years of ownership, it underwent reconstructive treatment which created an apparent high-grade appearance.

 

Initially sold as a raw FN/VF copy via Heritage, it resurfaced as a CGC 9.2 in the recent Beverly Hills auction. However, that was not before pgcmint attempted to liquidate same via eBay in September of this year.

 

 

 

 

All-American Comics #65 (DC, 1945) Condition: FN/VF

 

All-American Comics #65 (DC, 1945) CGC NM- 9.2 Off-white pages

 

Is it wrong of me to think the book actually looks better in the after photos? The spine roll was simply corrected. It appears that the spine, cover edges and pages line up in a manner more approximating what the publishers were actually striving for. It looks to me like a darn pretty book.

 

 

you're going to hell.

Any good comic dealers there?

[Sal]

escutcheon

 

 

[mysterio]

People interesting in the Wagner card should read this book

 

The Card: Collectors, Con Men, and the True Story of History's Most Desired Baseball Card

 

It provides a pretty good summary of what went on with it.

 

Yeah, it's a good book.

[DiceX]

did he admit to "trimming" as we speak of re-trimming a side or two of a manufactured card?

 

or did he admit to cutting it from the uncut sheet?

 

or is it that he was quoted as only stating that "yes I trimmed it" w/o specifying which crime he was admitting he committed?

 

because as I said earlier, back in 91 when the card gained notoriety as "the most valuable card in the world", guys high up in the card business knew (or claimed to all know) where the card came from. And from then on, it was given a pass as a "real card".

 

If the truth is bothering people now, its an argument that all misdeeds eventually get exposed over time.

 

 

Sems to me that is that timeline graphic is accurate, the guy to talk to is the guy who sold the card to Mastro in the late 80s. If that guy sold a card, HE cut the sheet, and Mastro maybe perfected the trim. But if that guy sold the uncut sheet, that leaves Mastro holding a cool sheet of cards with a missing rectangle.

 

Yeah, I was a nobody in the card industry and I've known since it surfaced that it was carved out of an uncut sheet.

My question was always, "Why did they cut it out? Wouldn't an uncut sheet be worth more than the single card?"

 

 

[rjrjr]

did he admit to "trimming" as we speak of re-trimming a side or two of a manufactured card?

 

or did he admit to cutting it from the uncut sheet?

 

or is it that he was quoted as only stating that "yes I trimmed it" w/o specifying which crime he was admitting he committed?

 

because as I said earlier, back in 91 when the card gained notoriety as "the most valuable card in the world", guys high up in the card business knew (or claimed to all know) where the card came from. And from then on, it was given a pass as a "real card".

 

If the truth is bothering people now, its an argument that all misdeeds eventually get exposed over time.

 

 

Sems to me that is that timeline graphic is accurate, the guy to talk to is the guy who sold the card to Mastro in the late 80s. If that guy sold a card, HE cut the sheet, and Mastro maybe perfected the trim. But if that guy sold the uncut sheet, that leaves Mastro holding a cool sheet of cards with a missing rectangle.

 

Yeah, I was a nobody in the card industry and I've known since it surfaced that it was carved out of an uncut sheet.

My question was always, "Why did they cut it out? Wouldn't an uncut sheet be worth more than the single card?"

 

 

Does PSA grade uncut sheets? Maybe sports card collectors are like comic collectors and only value something if it has been slabbed or if the slabbing companies acknowledge the importance of the item?

[Sardo Numspar]

I know Mark Zaid posted saying he was in a dialogue with CGC and would post here agaqin, but I have not seen him come back here, did I miss a post?

 

Mark? what happened to the dialogue? I hope no one tar and feathered you or anything.

 

Nah, they just figured if they waited it out, the problems would just magically disappear, and the boards would lose interest. It's hard to sustain negative emotions over a long period of time, which has happened here.

 

A few posts of lip service to slightly quell the mob seems to have sufficed in this instance.

 

With all due respect, I don't give lip service to anything or anyone. Nor do I let anything fade away without being addressed as promised.

 

My apologies to everyone for the delay but that is on me, not CGC. I have been very occupied in dealing with Benghazi issues. I trust the murder of a US Ambassador is understandably a legitimate distraction.

 

I will be back on this issue as soon as I can.

 

With all due respect Mark, perhaps you have too much on your plate.

 

Regards,

Drew

 

Tell me something I don't know Drew.

 

Fair enough Mark (thumbs u I've met you. You're an intelligent guy. I would hope that would bring a measure of introspection as well. Ask yourself, if you don't have the time to devote to this issue, then perhaps its time to step aside.

 

 

What are you guys talking about? We finally have someone with bona fides in the hobby working on the inside and being responsive and simply because he is not working on your time table he should quit? And this would achieve what exactly? Who else is going to take his place that also has the interests of our hobby?

 

Mark works tirelessly on comic book issues and matters of national security in his profession. I think he deserves a little bit more of a break for having to deal with some other issues for the time being. He gave tons of free time in trying to stop Dupcak and has provided legal assistance to numerous collectors - including many on these boards - pro bono. I really don't understand where this antagonism is coming from, but it is misplaced and unhelpful.

[Randall Dowling]

Fair enough Mark (thumbs u I've met you. You're an intelligent guy. I would hope that would bring a measure of introspection as well. Ask yourself, if you don't have the time to devote to this issue, then perhaps its time to step aside.

 

 

What are you guys talking about? We finally have someone with bona fides in the hobby working on the inside and being responsive and simply because he is not working on your time table he should quit? And this would achieve what exactly? Who else is going to take his place that also has the interests of our hobby?

 

Mark works tirelessly on comic book issues and matters of national security in his profession. I think he deserves a little bit more of a break for having to deal with some other issues for the time being. He gave tons of free time in trying to stop Dupcak and has provided legal assistance to numerous collectors - including many on these boards - pro bono. I really don't understand where this antagonism is coming from, but it is misplaced and unhelpful.

 

Absolutely right. It's absurd to go after Mark and it obfuscates from the issue at hand. You get the impression that people think there are many other candidates qualified and willing to do the same job. Although there are many lawyers that are comic collectors, I don't think there are many that are willing to devote the time to this issue.