Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[mysterio]

Really? A lot of the responsibility for face-jobs is on CGC. If they would grade these types of books appropriately (considering that the defects are being moved rather than eliminated), then there would be no incentive to continue this spine manipulative technique.

 

Fixing spine rolls on lower grade comics is another matter, since there the pressing often results in a much better looking comic. It's different that what's being done with these face-jobs.

 

+1 on all of the above.

[pickycollector]

For clarity:

 

The interior pages were trimmed along the bottom edge....correct?

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

After realignment therapy and Costanza, now micro-trimming is back....

 

Awesome CGC, awesome....

 

[Hammerhead]

For clarity:

 

The interior pages were trimmed along the bottom edge....correct?

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

After realignment therapy and Costanza, now micro-trimming is back....

 

Awesome CGC, awesome....

 

Wow....just wow.

[Buzzetta]

Eventually they will reverse their decision given the outcry of this matter as they did concerning people that were applying fresh tape on 60 year old books in order to get blue label bumps.

 

They will address it. They may not address it now. But they will eventually address it.

[Spiderphill]

This hobby is turning into a joke. I'm happy I sold half of my keepers. I'm just going to CPR. Take the free money until the hobby is destroyed.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

For clarity:

 

The interior pages were trimmed along the bottom edge....correct?

 

 

Once the roll was removed, the interior pages would line back up on the bottom. This was a perfect candidate for pressing. However there was no need for the 1/8" spine realignment other than the likelihood that CGC would grade the defects which were shifted to the rear cover less stringently.

 

Also, a bit of color flaking with the upgrade

[DavidTheDavid]

Hmm, okay, I'm trying to follow this conversation but getting caught up on the hundreds of posts is a bit much.

 

Please tell this noob what it means for a book to be Constanza'd. And can someone neatly summarize the Cole Schave collection issue? I've gathered that some unscrupulous collector/seller has trimmed numerous books, which CGC initially did not catch?

[DR.X]

This hobby is turning into a joke.

''

 

It is turning into a joke. I'm trying to find reasons to stay in this hobby with all this nonsense going on. I think the only thing keeping in it right now is the people I know and trust on these boards.

 

There still seems to be more good apples than bad ones.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

 

There would have been no reason to trim the top as the 1/8" shift should have sharpened the spine. I can't imagine this group trimming a book unless it was guaranteed to increase profit and in this instance the risk/reward ratio doesn't fit.

 

That said, there looks like there should have been a very slight rub at the top of the spine after the shift, that does not appear in the scans. I would guess that the coverstock in that areas is slightly rolled toward the interior.

[Spiderphill]

This hobby is turning into a joke.

''

 

It is turning into a joke. I'm trying to find reasons to stay in this hobby with all this nonsense going on. I think the only thing keeping in it right now is the people I know and trust on these boards.

 

There still seems to be more good apples than bad ones.

well I've reverted back to a raw collection. No more high grade slabs.

 

These boards are the safe haven for now.

[Spiderphill]

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

 

There would have been no reason to trim the top as the 1/8" shift should have sharpened the spine. I can't imagine this group trimming a book unless it was guaranteed to increase profit and in this instance the risk/reward ratio doesn't fit.

 

That said, there looks like there should have been a very slight rub at the top of the spine after the shift, that does not appear in the scans. I would guess that the coverstock in that areas is slightly rolled toward the interior.

it's not trimmed. The shift gives the sharp corner illusion.

[mysterio]

Hmm, okay, I'm trying to follow this conversation but getting caught up on the hundreds of posts is a bit much.

 

Please tell this noob what it means for a book to be Constanza'd. And can someone neatly summarize the Cole Schave collection issue? I've gathered that some unscrupulous collector/seller has trimmed numerous books, which CGC initially did not catch?

 

Costanza book = shrunken cover due to improper pressing, identifiable by excessive strip of front page showing alongside cover on right side (see examples on page 1 for an easy illustration).

 

Cole Schave effect = synonym of Costanza

 

RSR = reverse spine roll, introduced by a press that introduces a new spine crease with the intent of shifting spine wear to the back of the book, thereby improving eye appeal from the front for a grade bump. See All-American example on previous page.

[comicwiz]

For clarity:

 

The interior pages were trimmed along the bottom edge....correct?

 

 

Once the roll was removed, the interior pages would line back up on the bottom. This was a perfect candidate for pressing. However there was no need for the 1/8" spine realignment other than the likelihood that CGC would grade the defects which were shifted to the rear cover less stringently.

 

Also, a bit of color flaking with the upgrade

 

I would agree to some extent, but unless we see the back cover, we won't know whether bits were clipped. Still, I think what we are seeing over and over again is a demonstration of the ineptitude and failure of certification. What might appear as a heavy cost on the staying power of our hobby, is being construed as an enterprising opportunity for others.

 

More specifically, this is yet another example of certification needing to be regulated. Not just in this hobby, but across other collecting categories as well. If the community of collectors best way to achieve this is to self-monitor, then your approach might be one way to analyze each example of transgression.

 

It might not be as fast and impactful a blow as some would like (myself included). Others may want a more forceful method. At the core of such mixed reactions is a democratizing function that might choose to employ a wait and see approach, but IMHO we are well past that point. Technology has been the enabler and acted as our video review, and after seeing repeated misses, this appears to me to have pushed the validity and function of certification right off the cliff.

 

The fallout of course is the lingering question of whether CGC is qualified to soldier through this mess, and in my view, they're intentions and service commitment are appearing less and less credible with each publicized incident.

 

All said, what I would like to understand is whether the remedy/approach they sought in the past which attempted to lop the legs off the activities of Dupcak and Ewart (intentionally mispelling in case anyone is wondering) is again necessary to better manage Wilson. In other words, I see no point in this:

 

Posted on 8/15/2013

The reverse spine roll technique is controversial because it forces a comic into a state that never existed.

 

Reverse spine roll (RSR) is the newest defect resulting from pressing. Unlike all the others, this one is intentional, making it particularly controversial. Rather than attempting to return a book to its original state through methods that neither add nor take away from a comic book, the RSR technique forces a comic into a state that never existed. The most consistent telltale sign is the fanned pages along the upper right edge of the front cover, which can range from extremely minor (1/64”) to noticeably large (1/8”). For larger rolls and GA books, disassembly may be utilized.

 

Another less consistent sign of RSR is the spine line, now shifted slightly onto the back cover. How conspicuous it is depends on the amount of wear the spine line exhibited prior to being rolled back.

 

... without backing it up with action.

[pickycollector]

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

 

There would have been no reason to trim the top as the 1/8" shift should have sharpened the spine. I can't imagine this group trimming a book unless it was guaranteed to increase profit and in this instance the risk/reward ratio doesn't fit.

 

That said, there looks like there should have been a very slight rub at the top of the spine after the shift, that does not appear in the scans. I would guess that the coverstock in that areas is slightly rolled toward the interior.

it's not trimmed. The shift gives the sharp corner illusion.

Not obvious on left corner I agree because of the RSR but take a closer look at right corner. The little green dot is at a micro shorter distance from the top edge in the second scan.

 

Hard to see I confess but if CGC is unable to catch obvious Costanzas and RSR books, how could they catch such micro-trimming ?

[mschmidt]

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

 

There would have been no reason to trim the top as the 1/8" shift should have sharpened the spine. I can't imagine this group trimming a book unless it was guaranteed to increase profit and in this instance the risk/reward ratio doesn't fit.

 

That said, there looks like there should have been a very slight rub at the top of the spine after the shift, that does not appear in the scans. I would guess that the coverstock in that areas is slightly rolled toward the interior.

it's not trimmed. The shift gives the sharp corner illusion.

Not obvious on left corner I agree because of the RSR but take a closer look at right corner. The little green dot is at a micro shorter distance from the top edge in the second scan.

 

Hard to see I confess but if CGC is unable to catch obvious Costanzas and RSR books, how could they catch such micro-trimming ?

 

It's not trimmed - the only reason people perform the RSR is because they previously weren't penalized for doing so. Trimming, however, is a completely different matter.

[comicwiz]

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

 

There would have been no reason to trim the top as the 1/8" shift should have sharpened the spine. I can't imagine this group trimming a book unless it was guaranteed to increase profit and in this instance the risk/reward ratio doesn't fit.

 

That said, there looks like there should have been a very slight rub at the top of the spine after the shift, that does not appear in the scans. I would guess that the coverstock in that areas is slightly rolled toward the interior.

it's not trimmed. The shift gives the sharp corner illusion.

Not obvious on left corner I agree because of the RSR but take a closer look at right corner. The little green dot is at a micro shorter distance from the top edge in the second scan.

 

Hard to see I confess but if CGC is unable to catch obvious Costanzas and RSR books, how could they catch such micro-trimming ?

 

It's not trimmed - the only reason people perform the RSR is because they previously weren't penalized for doing so. Trimming, however, is a completely different matter.

 

Using a "nail clipper" isn't trimming? How do you know for certain one wasn't used here?

[pickycollector]

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

 

There would have been no reason to trim the top as the 1/8" shift should have sharpened the spine. I can't imagine this group trimming a book unless it was guaranteed to increase profit and in this instance the risk/reward ratio doesn't fit.

 

That said, there looks like there should have been a very slight rub at the top of the spine after the shift, that does not appear in the scans. I would guess that the coverstock in that areas is slightly rolled toward the interior.

it's not trimmed. The shift gives the sharp corner illusion.

Not obvious on left corner I agree because of the RSR but take a closer look at right corner. The little green dot is at a micro shorter distance from the top edge in the second scan.

 

Hard to see I confess but if CGC is unable to catch obvious Costanzas and RSR books, how could they catch such micro-trimming ?

 

It's not trimmed - the only reason people perform the RSR is because they previously weren't penalized for doing so. Trimming, however, is a completely different matter.

Exactly. The only reason I see for such manipulations (including the possible return of micro-trimming) is because CGC do not penalize them...

[mschmidt]

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

 

There would have been no reason to trim the top as the 1/8" shift should have sharpened the spine. I can't imagine this group trimming a book unless it was guaranteed to increase profit and in this instance the risk/reward ratio doesn't fit.

 

That said, there looks like there should have been a very slight rub at the top of the spine after the shift, that does not appear in the scans. I would guess that the coverstock in that areas is slightly rolled toward the interior.

it's not trimmed. The shift gives the sharp corner illusion.

Not obvious on left corner I agree because of the RSR but take a closer look at right corner. The little green dot is at a micro shorter distance from the top edge in the second scan.

 

Hard to see I confess but if CGC is unable to catch obvious Costanzas and RSR books, how could they catch such micro-trimming ?

 

It's not trimmed - the only reason people perform the RSR is because they previously weren't penalized for doing so. Trimming, however, is a completely different matter.

Exactly. The only reason I see for such manipulations (including the possible return of micro-trimming) is because CGC do not penalize them...

 

CGC puts micro-trimmed books in a purple label slab - how is that not a penalty?

 

It makes no sense to go through all the trouble of "improving" this book through an RSR and then risk losing the money & work invested by adding a trim job that most likely would mean the book ends up in a restored slab.

[Spiderphill]

Top edge seems trimmed to me, look at the tip of both upper left and right corners.

 

 

There would have been no reason to trim the top as the 1/8" shift should have sharpened the spine. I can't imagine this group trimming a book unless it was guaranteed to increase profit and in this instance the risk/reward ratio doesn't fit.

 

That said, there looks like there should have been a very slight rub at the top of the spine after the shift, that does not appear in the scans. I would guess that the coverstock in that areas is slightly rolled toward the interior.

it's not trimmed. The shift gives the sharp corner illusion.

Not obvious on left corner I agree because of the RSR but take a closer look at right corner. The little green dot is at a micro shorter distance from the top edge in the second scan.

 

Hard to see I confess but if CGC is unable to catch obvious Costanzas and RSR books, how could they catch such micro-trimming ?

it's not trimmed. The same cut is there as the interior pages and it matches the old cut of the fn/vf form.

[pickycollector]

CGC puts micro-trimmed books in a purple label slab - how is that not a penalty?

That is if they can catch it... And after all the things I see and read about in this Forum that they are unable to catch, I would not be surprised if their ability has deteriorated over the years..