Answer from CGC.........

[Red Hook]

With all due respect Joseph,.....

 

Plato Schmato!

 

Bob Storms has as high a level of credibility as anyone. I also think he has show some cahones. I think there are plenty of folks still on the fence (with some reason), and additional voices added would help get the story out, and elevate them from being conveniently categorized as anecdote.

 

I still say, the primary sources need to be heard from. You've not heard from the undecided ones. You've heard from a few vocal supporters and detractors out there. If more primary sources opened up, you'd hear more people coming on board with opinions.

[Foolkiller]

Not really a fan of this use of Plato's Republic as an analogy for the CGC situation.

 

It's time for all the cards to be laid on the table by those who hold them...or it's time for them to fold.

 

 

I agree. If you got 'em, show 'em. Now.

 

As well intentioned as as this statement is, I look at this level of intellectual enlightment as Plato did with his allegory of the cave in the Republic. In the allegory, Plato likens people untutored in the Theory of Forms to prisoners chained in a cave, unable to turn their heads. All they can see is the wall of the cave.

 

Behind them burns a fire. Between the fire and the prisoners there is a parapet, along which puppeteers can walk. The puppeteers, who are behind the prisoners, hold up puppets that cast shadows on the wall of the cave. The prisoners are unable to see these puppets, the real objects, that pass behind them. What the prisoners see and hear are shadows and echoes cast by objects that they do not see.

 

Such prisoners would mistake appearance for reality. They would think the things they see on the wall (the shadows) were real; they would know nothing of the real causes of the shadows. And although this situation is different because we are not exactly being held imprisoned or against our own volition, the similarity is found with the notion that the collecting community as a whole has been shackled by forming its opinion and perception on the reality which has been handed down by a group of people we trust, who are believed to be able to excercise good judgement, and would act only in the best interest of the hobby.

 

Anything that would call into question that reality would not be easily accepted. Even with some of the comments that have been floating around already, most forumites have their reservations that any of these statements could be true. Many have altogether dismissed the ramblings of mindriot, Memphis Kidd, and F_T as delusional talk. Some of those attitudes changed somewhat when blazingbob chimed in, but for the most part, its still not taken as anything remotely close to resembling gospel.

 

What makes you think that any one person, or group of people coming forward with damning information would be taken seriously anyway? Moreover, what makes you think anyone would put their reputation and cred on the line, not to mention the legal risks for making any unproven statements? For what purpose? The benefit of a few willing to listen, and only to add feul to the contrarian fires? IMO, even though it would be quite a public spectacle if a concerted effort from a group of well respected people in the hobby were to come forward with an alternate reality, I really doubt that there will be any level of enlightement on this issue amongst the collecting community, especially if CGC has anything to say about any alternate reality that frames them in a negative light.

[comicwiz]

With all due respect Joseph,.....

 

Plato Schmato!

 

Bob Storms has as high a level of credibility as anyone. I also think he has show some cahones. I think there are plenty of folks still on the fence (with some reason), and additional voices added would help get the story out, and elevate them from being conveniently categorized as anecdote.

 

I still say, the primary sources need to be heard from. You've not heard from the undecided ones. You've heard from a few vocal supporters and detractors out there. If more primary sources opened up, you'd hear more people coming on board with opinions.

 

This might only happen with a disgruntled benefactor who also happens to be a primary source, and a big player in the comic scene. Even then, you'd need to question their motives, because it could boil down to an act motivated from loss of benefit rather than coming clean on ethical grounds. And if it is motivated by the latter, then no matter who it is dishing it out, you need to question the reliability of the information being shared.

[Tango 'n Cash]

I still say, the primary sources need to be heard from.

 

Why would these people stick their necks out for our benefit? If I was in their place I know I would not willingly invite the wrath of CGC and their fans especially since there is no reward.

[Red Hook]

Okay, understood. But moving along .....what form would this "wrath" take? Anybody?

 

Steve?

[comicwiz]

Not really a fan of this use of Plato's Republic as an analogy for the CGC situation.

 

Its never been an intention of mine to strive for fandom, so I don't care what you or anyone thinks. And its what's called an allegorical example, not an analogy.

[drbanner]

And there's the River.

 

Ante up if you're in on the next round...

[Foolkiller]

An allegorical example... really? What you are doing though is trying to draw an analogy to the CGC situation. Or at least that's what I take away as your point.

 

Joseph, I actually respect what you have to say, although I find this whole thing almost reaching humorous proportions.

 

I know you're not striving for fandom... I really didn't think you were. I just think the use of Plato's Republic is a little misplaced here, that's all.

[Foolkiller]

Banner:

 

maybe we should all switch our screen names to WSOP famous players for the purposes of this thread.

 

since there are enough Asians to choose from, at least the other Asian board members don't all have to be played by the same guy (like if we casted a CGC movie).

[Red Hook]

I'll second that Joseph. I want it clear also that I have appreciated your posts in this thread. I do think we've pretty much played out the thread at this point.

[drbanner]

Banner:

 

maybe we should all switch our screen names to WSOP famous players for the purposes of this thread.

 

since there are enough Asians to choose from, at least the other Asian board members don't all have to be played by the same guy (like if we casted a CGC movie).

 

[Aman619]

Hey Awe,

 

You know, I keep thinking of the parallels between this and the steroid controversy in baseball. Is there any possiblity of correcting the situation, without major admissions of what has gone on?

 

I was thinking the same thing reading the sports section today.

 

[comicwiz]

An allegorical example... really? What you are doing though is trying to draw an analogy to the CGC situation. Or at least that's what I take away as your point.

 

Joseph, I actually respect what you have to say, although I find this whole thing almost reaching humorous proportions.

 

I know you're not striving for fandom... I really didn't think you were. I just think the use of Plato's Republic is a little misplaced here, that's all.

 

Understood. And I do want to leave you with an afterthought, and not just for the sake of rationalizing my use of the example, but rather to illustrate the point I was trying to make.

 

If you have never had an opportunity to attend a con (especially a big one like San Diego or Chicago) and dropped-by the CGC booth, you would be absolutely amazed at the amount of people lining up at their table. Even more surprising is the amount of people just talking comics. The guys at CGC are the most likeable and approachable people I have ever met in the hobby. And although it doesn't appear I do with my strong opinions, I have a tremendous amount of respect for all the people I've ever met. Great comic-minded folks who also recognize the need to convey an accessible public image.

 

Aside from the tremendous popularity this company has achieved with its products and services, their people have been its biggest asset. Steve is the glue to this company. And though I'm not the kind of person to pull punches, and I've expressed my disapproval in the past on some issues I felt were important, I'm also NOT going to overlook the fact that CGC has done more things right than wrong for the hobby.

 

This information coming forward is especially difficult for some (including myself) to digest because of the effect this one company has had on collectors. Theirs is a contagious energy, and one that recognizes the need to put a face on their services. I wouldn't go as far to say that everyone dismissing this troubling information is in a trance, but there are those who are, and its certainly easy (at least for myself in the way I've seen them dealing with people at conventions) to see why some of the most ardent believers in CGC are sticking to their guns and refuting this information as nothing more than negative spin and lies.

 

A lot of peope, myself included could just not fathom this level of weakness in a company like CGC. And with everything that I know about this issue, I still find it difficult to absorb it all, and understand the why's. And it is for all these reasons, even though I can certainly appreciate the public service aspect of an information sharing of this significance, I really have a hard time believing that anyone's version of this alternative reality is going to be well recieved, let alone being graciously accepted in the collecting community as a whole.

[Aman619]

As well intentioned as as this statement is, I look at this level of intellectual enlightment as Plato did with his allegory of the cave in the Republic. In the allegory, Plato likens people untutored in the Theory of Forms to prisoners chained in a cave, unable to turn their heads. All they can see is the wall of the cave.

 

Behind them burns a fire. Between the fire and the prisoners there is a parapet, along which puppeteers can walk. The puppeteers, who are behind the prisoners, hold up puppets that cast shadows on the wall of the cave. The prisoners are unable to see these puppets, the real objects, that pass behind them. What the prisoners see and hear are shadows and echoes cast by objects that they do not see.

 

I liked your Plato analogy... especially having it explained again how he worded it...

But It is too universal to have any specific application to this situation, no?

But yeah, we are all looking at and reacting to shadows arent we?

[Foolkiller]

Now see Joseph, you HAD to get this thread back on topic... didn't you realize there was a flame war going on?

[Foolkiller]

Hey, a great move by the mods! Removing the drivel from the flame war.

[awe4one]

Now see Joseph, you HAD to get this thread back on topic... didn't you realize there was a flame war going on?

 

Well at least we know the mods are reading it...

 

Jim

[Deathlok]

Hey, a great move by the mods! Removing the drivel from the flame war.

 

Great, let the CGC bashing continue.

[jbud73]

Hey, a great move by the mods! Removing the drivel from the flame war.

 

Great, let the CGC bashing continue.

 

'lock, the level of discourse in this thread is pretty much the highest level I've ever witnessed on these boards. To debase to generalistic CGC bashing is totally unwarranted. I happen to think that this is one of the few times that I have seen the assembled COLLECTOR base on these boards actually think about the big picture and the pieces that are lesser parts of the whole.

[Deathlok]

Hey, a great move by the mods! Removing the drivel from the flame war.

 

Great, let the CGC bashing continue.

 

'lock, the level of discourse in this thread is pretty much the highest level I've ever witnessed on these boards. To debase to generalistic CGC bashing is totally unwarranted. I happen to think that this is one of the few times that I have seen the assembled COLLECTOR base on these boards actually think about the big picture and the pieces that are lesser parts of the whole.

 

Are you kidding me? Other than Bassgman, I haven't heard a single person supporting Friesen's new CCG-sponsored business venture. Almost 95% of the posts in this thread are about how much of a mistake CGC is making. Nothing much is being discussed except a rehash of the prior posts. Everyone is against it, what more is there to talk about?