Answer from CGC.........

[awe4one]

Yes, I said "restoration" which included pressing within that word, but pressing really is manipulation which I would not call restoration. If a woman gets breast implants (something added to replace the original) after having lost them due to cancer, then that is restoration. But if she goes to a chiropractor to have her back adjusted so that she can walk upright again, that is manipulation, not restoration. Same thing. So you are saying manipulation should be notated? Do we need a new color label for that? Can we see manipulation with 100% certainty?

 

It seems to me that people, and not just you Sid, are trying damn hard to justify the pressing issue in your mind. This situation is far from a good thing. CGC has made us look like fools by us buying into their status in the hobby and them using their interaction they have with this Forum and Dinners. They had a captive audience to manipulate and mold opinions over the last year and a half. It has obviously worked on some people...

 

I'm frankly getting sick of posters sitting on fence because not enough info has been released or using it as a crux to stay neutral. Well guess what? There never will be enough info.

 

Let's do this again...who here sees absolutely, totally nothing wrong with pressing under the CCG umbrellla and CGC slabbing these comic with a blue label. No caveats. No reservations. No "depends...". No "But....". Who truly has no problem whatsoever with this issue?

 

Jim

[PovertyRow]

Amen, Mike!

 

Thanks, Scott. A knowledge of restoration should be as well versed as a knowldege of grading.

[jbud73]

Michael, as always I apreciate your comments - however as you also are aware the trend has been for CGC notations to come off of the Blue Label not the other way around. The answer for this from CGC, I believe we were both present when the reasoning was parlayed - the Collector base spoke on this issue with the decreased prices realized and sales frequency of Blue Label books with certain notations on them. When I heard it I almost spewed my smoked salmon on the table.

 

Considering this stance It would greatly surprise me, though I'd applaud NDP notations on the blue label. Of course this is simply unlikely. Pressing as a alteration service,especially NDP is tied to a monetary goal. I too echo the previous sentiment, or paradox - if there's nothing wrong with it, why the extreme measures to cloud it in secrecy? I know the answer to this - dealers will seek to stamp out any perception of undisclosed restoration on books they sell. The vehement denials in Jason Ewert's email response posted here characterize this effect. To CGC's credit they have put a huge crease in non-disclosure of restorative, or alteration work on comic books. But this last bastion of non-disclosure remains - I am sure certain entities will fight to the end to ensure that the status quo is not interrupted with NDP.

 

Where does that leave the collector base? I think you are right Michael we are left on our own on this issue and must try to educate ourselves as much as possible - this is why I have been a stauch defender of the ideas being posted - on either side. Its important to keep the discussion going, even if it is a rehash for some, it certainly is an eye opener for others. For that I'm sure they thank everyone involved, I certainly do.

[BassGMan]

 

It seems to me that people, and not just you Sid, are trying damn hard to justify the pressing issue in your mind. This situation is far from a good thing. CGC has made us look like fools by us buying into their status in the hobby and them using their interaction they have with this Forum and Dinners. They had a captive audience to manipulate and mold opinions over the last year and a half. It has obviously worked on some people...

 

 

 

Jim, you are a very opinionated guy, and that is cool. You also seem very angry about this whole ordeal, and that is understandable. But CGC is not manipulating anyone. And those Forum dinners (I have gone to three) are certainly not brainwashing sessions, nor are these forums. We are all just hear to chat about various topics, including controversial ones such as this while sharing our different views. It's great that we can do that, don't you think?

 

Geez, it's nothing to get angry about. If some people, such as myself feel as if pressing is not restoration, then so be it, who cares? I can understand you having a problem with a dealer admitting to pressing and then selling the books without disclusure, but nobody has mentioned here that they were going to do that. It's just opinions. And Jim, I'm happy to read your strong opinions on the subject, as well as everybody elses. That's what makes these boards interesting, educational and informative.

 

If every single one of us agreed with this whole thing, there would be no thread, no debate, just boring one-sided dialogue.

 

If you feel as if CGC has made you look like a fool, then that is too bad. CGC has done nothing for me but to grade some of my books which makes them easier to sell at good prices. They are just a vendor providing a service and product, that's it. We, as a community of comic book collectors/investors/dealers/readers are the ones doing the manipulating to ourselves. WE set the prices, WE have decided PLODs are no good, etc.

 

The only other thing CGC has provided me was with an opportunity to meet other serious hobbyists through this message board and Forum dinners, and I am grateful for that but it does not alter my view of their business practices. We have been provided a Forum that helps us connect and get to know each other. This is not manipulation. We are not being force fed anything. Again, WE choose the subjects here too. We influence each other, not CGC. YOU guys have influenced me, CGC just grades my books and provides me with this great place so that I can get influenced by all of YOU. QUIT manipulating me you guys. Geez! You are all molding my opinions. Just cut it out wouldja'? -----Sid

[Bonds25]

 

LMAO - kudos!!

[awe4one]

You also seem very angry about this whole ordeal, and that is understandable.

 

Annoyed but nowhere near angry...it's not worth it. If you all decide to embrace this decision, then you deserve everything that happens as a result. I personally like this hobby too much to stay quiet...

 

But CGC is not manipulating anyone. And those Forum dinners (I have gone to three) are certainly not brainwashing sessions, nor are these forums. We are all just hear to chat about various topics, including controversial ones such as this while sharing our different views. It's great that we can do that, don't you think?

 

This is a CGC board. CGC is generally seen in a good light around here. Those with strongly anti-CGC feelings are frowned upon and ridiculed.

 

Also, the board is a conduit by which CGC can get their message out. If you don't believe that then you're naive to what goes on around here. This board isn't here due to the kindness of CGC's heart. It's a business decision and one that works in my opinion.

 

Geez, it's nothing to get angry about. If some people, such as myself feel as if pressing is not restoration, then so be it, who cares? I can understand you having a problem with a dealer admitting to pressing and then selling the books without disclusure, but nobody has mentioned here that they were going to do that.

 

Do we have to start from square one here? What's going on is CGC is attempting to legitimize forms of restoration by changing the definition and NOT call it resto. That is manipulation of the hobby. Collectors haven't asked them to do this. They are doing it themselves to improve their bottom line. Over the last year, CGC has repeatedly come out and disregarded the pressing as restoration argument despite widespread disagreement. Seems their message has sunk in to a few here...

 

If you feel as if CGC has made you look like a fool, then that is too bad. CGC has done nothing for me but to grade some of my books which makes them easier to sell at good prices. They are just a vendor providing a service and product, that's it. We, as a community of comic book collectors/investors/dealers/readers are the ones doing the manipulating to ourselves.

 

Bull...take a look at the CGC ads comparing raw vs. graded sales and tell me they aren't trying to manipulate the market and the normal collector. I'm afraid the lure of a few dollars has seriously clouded your judgement Sid...

 

And I'll note, you did all that typing and didn't answer the question...

 

Jim

[shadroch]

Jim,

Here is where we disagree.You say that CGC disregards the pressing as restoration dispite widespread aurguments.While there certainly is a group that feels pressing is resto,there are many others who feel different.I'm not aware of any indusrty or hobby-wide consensus on this issue.From reading Steves quotes,it appears Susan agrees with him on this issue.

Its not as if CGC is flying in the face of the hobbys wishes.There seems to be a split here,with the anti-pressing contingent being the more vocal,but not neccescarilly the larger of the groups.

CGC has already changed the guidelines for certain types of defects,some flying in the face of Overstreet,and people have accepted them.Overstreet doesn't allow for qualified grades but CGC does.Isn't a green label just an artificial boost to raise the value of a book that our bible says is in much worse shape,therefore it should be worth less.?

 

 

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

This concerns me much more than a future business that may or may not ever happen.Until we get a definitive answer and explanation on this,i consider the rest moot.

[THE_BEYONDER]

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

What if they have? Were CGC to reveal that they have been pressing books all along....would the " pressing is not restoration" crowd change their stance?

[chrisco37]

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

I don't think CGC has been engaged in this activity, but it does occur. I made a comment about Reynold Jay yesterday that seems to have gone by the wayside. Check out this "sample order form" from RJ's site for his 'prep service':

 

 

Notice the line, "Printer's Crease in Cover - Can be pressed out".

 

So far, RJ is the only dealer that straight-up advertises this type of service. He's been advertising this since I've been back in the hobby (2-1/2 years), and maybe even prior to that.

[drbanner]

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

What if they have? Were CGC to reveal that they have been pressing books all along....would the " pressing is not restoration" crowd change their stance?

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not pressing is restoration Chris, but it has everything to do with CGC's ethics.

 

Don't you want CGC to answer the question?

 

Don't you want the person that started this rumor to come forward with their story?

[Tango 'n Cash]

CGC has done nothing for me but to grade some of my books which makes them easier to sell at good prices.

 

That is the problem. You are a smalltime dealer/flipper and not a hardcore collector so naturally you are for anything that does not rock the CGC boat. You know which side your bread is buttered on and that maintaining CGC's status in the hobby is the best way for you to turn a buck.

 

There is nothing wrong with that but let's put our cards on the table.

[Tango 'n Cash]

There seems to be a split here,with the anti-pressing contingent being the more vocal,but not neccescarilly the larger of the groups.

 

I totally disagree with this. The vast majority of collectors do not even realize that dealers are engaged in "pressing for dollars" games and would be angry if this information ever came out. All those new investors sitting on CGC 9.0-9.4 Silver would be scared (and rightly so) that their books would loose their lustre after the pressing brigade hit the mainstream and the number of 9.0 and up books explodes.

 

To say that most collectors think that Pressing = Great News is ignoring that 90%+ of people buying CGC books do not even realize it is happening.

[Red Hook]

[goldust40]

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

I don't think CGC has been engaged in this activity, but it does occur. I made a comment about Reynold Jay yesterday that seems to have gone by the wayside. Check out this "sample order form" from RJ's site for his 'prep service':

 

 

Notice the line, "Printer's Crease in Cover - Can be pressed out".

 

So far, RJ is the only dealer that straight-up advertises this type of service. He's been advertising this since I've been back in the hobby (2-1/2 years), and maybe even prior to that.

 

So it takes all of ten minutes to press a book in average shape like the X-Men 94 into a 9.2 contender. God almighty. And I wouldn't have thought that half of these books would've been cost effective to press.

 

Sounds far more widespread an activity than even I imagined.

[BassGMan]

 

If you feel as if CGC has made you look like a fool, then that is too bad. CGC has done nothing for me but to grade some of my books which makes them easier to sell at good prices. They are just a vendor providing a service and product, that's it. We, as a community of comic book collectors/investors/dealers/readers are the ones doing the manipulating to ourselves.

 

Bull...take a look at the CGC ads comparing raw vs. graded sales and tell me they aren't trying to manipulate the market and the normal collector. I'm afraid the lure of a few dollars has seriously clouded your judgement Sid...

 

And I'll note, you did all that typing and didn't answer the question...

 

Jim

 

True, you are correct sir, I DID forget about those ads. Probably because I do not pay attention to them. Yes, those ads comparing CGC prices to raw certainly IS a form of manipulation, but it is also a good marketing strategy. I would hardly consider those ads to be manipulating any overall sentiment though.

 

And what question are you referring to again? I've stated my viewpoint so many times that not only I, but I'm sure everybody else is getting sick of it. Just like almost everybody else has repeated themselves over and over again.

[chrisco37]

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

I don't think CGC has been engaged in this activity, but it does occur. I made a comment about Reynold Jay yesterday that seems to have gone by the wayside. Check out this "sample order form" from RJ's site for his 'prep service':

 

 

Notice the line, "Printer's Crease in Cover - Can be pressed out".

 

So far, RJ is the only dealer that straight-up advertises this type of service. He's been advertising this since I've been back in the hobby (2-1/2 years), and maybe even prior to that.

 

So it takes all of ten minutes to press a book in average shape like the X-Men 94 into a 9.2 contender. God almighty. And I wouldn't have thought that half of these books would've been cost effective to press.

 

Sounds far more widespread an activity than even I imagined.

 

And, the service is alot cheaper than you might expect. Only $50/hour with most books averaging about 10 minutes. He says the most is around 20 minutes (roughly $17/book + shipping).

 

I sent him an email asking him to detail the service. Hopefully, he'll respond, and I'll post the email.

[BassGMan]

CGC has done nothing for me but to grade some of my books which makes them easier to sell at good prices.

 

That is the problem. You are a smalltime dealer/flipper and not a hardcore collector so naturally you are for anything that does not rock the CGC boat. You know which side your bread is buttered on and that maintaining CGC's status in the hobby is the best way for you to turn a buck.

 

There is nothing wrong with that but let's put our cards on the table.

 

Um... Tango, you bet I am a hardcore collector, and have been for over 20 years. I may not be a reader, and I may not have any books that "I will keep 'til I die". but I am most certainly a hardcore collector. I'm also a small time dealer too. Can't they co-exist? Don't assume that just because I am not against CGC's move or that I don't consider pressing as restoration that I am any less a "collector" than you or anyone else.

[goldust40]

What I fear is being lost here is an even more important question.

HAS CGC ALREADY ENGAGED IN THE PRESSING OF BOOKS FOR SELECT CLIENTS,AND IF SO,UNDER EXACTLY WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES?

 

I don't think CGC has been engaged in this activity, but it does occur. I made a comment about Reynold Jay yesterday that seems to have gone by the wayside. Check out this "sample order form" from RJ's site for his 'prep service':

 

 

Notice the line, "Printer's Crease in Cover - Can be pressed out".

 

So far, RJ is the only dealer that straight-up advertises this type of service. He's been advertising this since I've been back in the hobby (2-1/2 years), and maybe even prior to that.

 

So it takes all of ten minutes to press a book in average shape like the X-Men 94 into a 9.2 contender. God almighty. And I wouldn't have thought that half of these books would've been cost effective to press.

 

Sounds far more widespread an activity than even I imagined.

 

And, the service is alot cheaper than you might expect. Only $50/hour with most books averaging about 10 minutes. He says the most is around 20 minutes (roughly $17/book + shipping).

 

I sent him an email asking him to detail the service. Hopefully, he'll respond, and I'll post the email.

 

I do hope that everyone on these boards understands the implications of this. We're talking cheap, assembly line pressing that can turn average, inexpensive books that few would want due to their grade into HG gems.

 

And we're not talking BSD territory here. At all.

[Red Hook]

 

Yes, those ads comparing CGC prices to raw certainly IS a form of manipulation, but it is also a good marketing strategy. I would hardly consider those ads to be manipulating any overall sentiment though.

 

 

 

Sid. You're joking.....right? Could you....just .....stop....now? Your posts are getting sillier and sillier.

[Tango 'n Cash]

Sid. You're joking.....right? Could you....just .....stop....now? Your posts are getting sillier and sillier.

 

He is just riding the CGC gravy train and the bumps are making him dizzy.