Tintin interior for 2,100,000€

[delekkerste]

From what I've learned from talking with Belgian Tintin collectors, I think this hits the nail. A couple of years ago, I purchased a single Tintin panel for a price that would translate to $300,000+ for the full page and that was by no means an outlier. The market for Herge art is a _completely_ different universe and culture compared to the US market for OA, and I am pretty sure that my Belgian friends would prefer that it remains that way.

 

(thumbs u

 

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any special insights into the Franco-Belge high-end OA market. But, I am a logical person, and common sense would strongly suggest that a market where multiple 6-figure and even 7-figure prices for this material are well-established and have well pre-dated these recent $450K-up U.S. OA prices of recent years would consist of participants who have more resources at their disposal than their U.S. OA-collecting counterparts. Much as it's not much of a stretch to believe that people who collect classic Ferraris or high-end contemporary art are generally better-heeled than their U.S. OA-collecting counterparts. Of course there will be individual exceptions, but if you compared the median income, net worth, etc. of the people going after U.S. OA vs. these more expensive pursuits, I have little doubt that this would be the case.

 

 

And yet apparently an American won the auction. Very surprising. An American of Belgian descent perhaps?

 

Or perhaps Lucas was interested in an example for his museum?

 

True, but an American winning the auction doesn't disprove any point if it's someone like Lucas or Spielberg - that would just further solidify the case that ludicrously rich people buy Tintins for $3.5 million while the merely rich buy Hulk #180 pages, McSpidey covers and DKR art for $350-$657K. Incidentally, Lucas or Spielberg buying a piece like this would be orders of magnitude more likely than Hugh Jackman or Eminem buying the Hulk #180 page. Contrary to popular belief (or maybe just Tim's), I have never claimed that celebrities never buy OA. All I've said is that anyone, celebrity or not, who plays at this level needs to have had the interest and experience with the source material to be indoctrinated into this culture and become comfortable with the market. And have the time and passion to pursue it. People don't just walk off the street and buy $657K pieces of OA at auction out of nowhere, which the Hulk #180 page sale showed yet again.

[delekkerste]

Ok, I think I am understanding you better. I can see that the high end Euro most likely is not the same buyer for high end U.S superhero art, with some exceptions. But, if you take superhero off of that they might be. They might look for a quality Raymond Flash Gordon or a Barks Duck. But, then again, they might look for a Moebius Silver surfer. I don't know, it's hard to make hard and fast statements about individuals in the market and their propensity to cross over. Partly because the higher end the collector sometimes the lower the profile they like to keep.

 

Agreed; that sounds pretty reasonable to me and jibes with what I have encountered as well. (thumbs u

[Nexus]

Here is a random question and perhaps the answer is unknowable, but could the strong price for the Tintin be related to not just to the steady growth in the OA market (both US and Euro), but directly to the just completed Heritage auction? Those surprisingly strong results had some people speculating, Gene included, that there might now be a significantly higher expectation for prices asked and prices paid for anything of quality. Just wonder if this result is an early domino falling in some sort of tipping point scenario, or just another outlier.

 

I'm hoping for the latter scenario.

 

Scott

 

My own guess is that there was no correlation. That Tintin was going to sell for a huge amount, regardless of any US superhero sale.

 

I've been an observer of the European scene for a while. I agree with Gene, these are two different markets (certainly Tintin is its own 10-ton beast)...but perhaps not quite as separate and distinct as we would think. At least not in one direction. And perhaps less so going forward.

 

There's no question that American comic book properties have a broader appeal than Franco-Belgian ones. Yes, Tintin, Smurfs, Asterix have been translated internationally, and in terms of print, dwarf their US counterparts. It's not even close. However, in terms of the OA hobby, the European collectors who have interest in American OA, dwarf the American collectors who have interest in European OA. From what I can tell, Franco-Belgian OA values are not only driven by nostalgia (a common trait), but also by nationalistic/cultural pride (granted, the winner of this latest auction may have been American, but I can't imagine there were many Americans amongst the underbidders). Whereas, American OA has the potential to have a wider crossover appeal, thanks to overall media exposure.

 

Perhaps the ultra-rich Tintin buyers have little interest in American OA. But those European collectors who are aware of both markets, may increasingly see American OA as "cheap" by comparison. Comics-- not just local work, but American comics and manga as well-- are regarded as an art form ("ninth art"). They are not stigmatized in the same way as they are over here, and there is far less of a barrier, in terms of perception, to overcome. It's true that the vast majority of record sales for American OA have been set by a small group of known BSDs. But there is still a lot of prime American OA going overseas, including artists and titles such as Foster, Frazetta, Raymond, Barks, Kirby, DKR, WM, V, SCOTT PILGRIM ( ), et al. Time will tell.

 

 

[suspense39]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you

 

Not to be flippant, but, yes, you are misunderstanding me. I never said that there aren't plenty of Europeans buying American OA (of course that's not the case). All I'm saying is that the people buying Tintin and other high-end European OA for 6 and 7-figures, regardless of their national origin, are generally not the same people buying American superhero OA at the highest level. They attract different kinds of buyers and are thus disparate markets. It's kind of like comparing Formula 1 to Indycar - there are huge similarities on the surface and there are some crossover fans, but, generally speaking, they attract different types of adherents.* That's it, nothing else - anything else people are attributing to me is being incorrectly inferred on their part. Given that we can account for almost all of the high-end American OA sales of recent years (pretty much anything that has sold for more than $160K with the exception of the ASM #121 cover), that really shouldn't be a controversial statement.

 

And, yes, I do agree with you that the "legitimacy" of European OA has been a factor in these kinds of prices for Tintin and the bluest of blue chip European art - which is why I suspect that it has attracted a tonier set of collectors than American OA has to date. Whether American OA can achieve the same level of legitimacy remains open to debate. To date, it's really been the Clowes, Crumbs, Panters, Wares, etc. that have gotten any sheen of legitimacy, not the mainstream Marvel and DC artists. Who knows, maybe mainstream American OA will get there. Or, maybe it's just a cultural thing and it will struggle to catch on here to the extent it has in Europe, like professional soccer.

 

It's interesting to note that even though the Crumb, Clowes Wares have gotten some respect in "acceptable" museum and gallery presence, they do not (as of yet, and maybe never) appear in contemporary art auctions, they remain in comic art auctions. And while their art is seen is in the context of "fine or contemporary art" the prices are not near top sales in terms of price in either the comics or art worlds, except for, I think 1 Robert crumb.

 

 

 

 

* And, yes, I do know about big European collectors like Bernard and others who collect both, but until I see guys like him competing for the likes of Hulk #180 pages @ $657K, I think the general point holds - let's not pick nits here.

[vodou]

But there is still a lot of prime American OA going overseas, including artists and titles such as Foster, Frazetta, Raymond, Barks, Kirby, DKR, WM, V, SCOTT PILGRIM ( ), et al. Time will tell.

Oh so very true.

 

My CAF was being picked over so badly by Europeans making 3x-5x FMV offers (which I generally couldn't say no to) that I just took everything down. What's the point of collecting art if you've no collection left?! And I only had a small assortment of 'decent' US stuff up, even though my collection is actually about 99% non-US by piece count and at least 75% non-US by dollar value.

 

Still scratching my head at what all that over-offering was about, but I think maybe circumventing dealing with Heritage and other houses fee, shipping, customs structure may have had a lot to do with it. There's a lot to be said for agreeing to a price and then just swapping goods, no middlers, ya know?

[suspense39]

 

Whoops got my paragraph mixed in with Gene's, didn't mean to put words in his mouth

 

 

 

It's interesting to note that even though the Crumb, Clowes Wares have gotten some respect in "acceptable" museum and gallery presence, they do not (as of yet, and maybe never) appear in contemporary art auctions, they remain in comic art auctions. And while their art is seen is in the context of "fine or contemporary art" the prices are not near top sales in terms of price in either the comics or art worlds, except for, I think 1 Robert crumb.

[Bronty]

What I don't get about crumb is how/why is so much of his art constantly on the market. There's a big selection literally every heritage auction

[suspense39]

I would imagine, but have no insight into it, I would bet that a lot of that was bought in and being leaked out over time from HAs own inventory.

[Bronty]

I suppose that makes sense. Id forgotten that they sometimes buy on their own account. Thx

[Bronty]

OT, but anyone know wtf is up with antiques roadshow 'restoration arbitrage' ? What I mean by that is that they will sometimes give valuations along these lines:

 

- 2500 in present condition, but

- worth 4000 after a 300 dollar resto job

 

It makes no sense to me the market wouldn't bid up the 'present condition' example to something in the range of 3500 given how cheap it would be to make it worth 4k.

 

Anyone else notice this?

[suspense39]

I have, and don't get it either.

[tth2]

So who is this American buyer of the tintin art?

Whoever it is, it can't be a celebrity or internet billionaire!

 

Eminem

Kobe Bryant

Kirk Hammett

Stephen Spielberg

George Lucas

Samuel Jackson

Leo DiCaprio

Bill Gates

Paul Allen

Mark Zuckerberg

Steve Jobs *

 

Hugh Jackman not included in this list because, of course, he's not American!

 

[Bronty]

So who is this American buyer of the tintin art?

Whoever it is, it can't be a celebrity or internet billionaire!

 

Eminem

Kobe Bryant

Kirk Hammett

Stephen Spielberg

George Lucas

Samuel Jackson

Leo DiCaprio

Bill Gates

Paul Allen

Mark Zuckerberg

Steve Jobs *

 

Hugh Jackman not included in this list because, of course, he's not American!

 

Must be delekkerste then

[tth2]

Of course there will be individual exceptions, but if you compared the median income, net worth, etc. of the people going after U.S. OA vs. these more expensive pursuits, I have little doubt that this would be the case.

Which still begs the question why Park's Law permits ultra-wealthy Europeans (and Americans, apparently) to buy European OA but not ultra-wealthy Americans (or Europeans) to buy American OA?

 

True, but an American winning the auction doesn't disprove any point if it's someone like Lucas or Spielberg - that would just further solidify the case that ludicrously rich people buy Tintins for $3.5 million while the merely rich buy Hulk #180 pages, McSpidey covers and DKR art for $350-$657K. Incidentally, Lucas or Spielberg buying a piece like this would be orders of magnitude more likely than Hugh Jackman or Eminem buying the Hulk #180 page. Contrary to popular belief (or maybe just Tim's), I have never claimed that celebrities never buy OA. All I've said is that anyone, celebrity or not, who plays at this level needs to have had the interest and experience with the source material to be indoctrinated into this culture and become comfortable with the market. And have the time and passion to pursue it. People don't just walk off the street and buy $657K pieces of OA at auction out of nowhere, which the Hulk #180 page sale showed yet again.

Okay, then as a corollary to my question above, if Park's Law demands that only people really plugged into comics and OA culture can spend big bucks on OA, meaning that the bidders and buyers of Tintin are emotionally invested in and truly into the Tintin OA market, why is that only ultra-wealthy Europeans (and Americans, apparently) are able to be so into European OA but not similarly into American OA?

[tth2]

I haven't done the math but it strike anybody else that the US record is probably about the BP on the euro record ?

 

Kind of puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

[tth2]

OT, but anyone know wtf is up with antiques roadshow 'restoration arbitrage' ? What I mean by that is that they will sometimes give valuations along these lines:

 

- 2500 in present condition, but

- worth 4000 after a 300 dollar resto job

 

It makes no sense to me the market wouldn't bid up the 'present condition' example to something in the range of 3500 given how cheap it would be to make it worth 4k.

 

Anyone else notice this?

Sounds like a major arbitrage opportunity! Instead of wondering about it, you should be jumping on it with both feet!!!

[tb]

The total price with fees was just released:

2,519,000€ =3,433,900$

http://www.lemonde.fr/livres/article/2014/05/24/une-planche-de-tintin-adjugee-2-5-millions-d-euros_4425211_3260.html

 

[...]

 

For those who are not familiar with Hergé art, the Musée Hergé in Louvain la Neuve holds a collection that no amount of superlatives could do justice. The last time I was there, I suspect any one among at least 100 of the originals on display would have brought the same or a higher price if it were to come up for auction. None of them ever will, of course.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bronty]

Yeah Ill get right on that. I just always wondered about it because it doesn't make sense to me on a couple of different levels. Im certainly not suggesting its the road to fame and fortune (That's Tintin OA, apparently) or even anything to take too seriously.

[krazykatduce-migration]

.............

[Bronty]

Who will be banned by Monday?