Jerry Siegel's "Batman"

[bluechip]

For years I had heard that Siegel and Shuster's 1947 lawsuit against DC asserted that they were entitled to profits from Batman and Green Lantern among other heroes. Stemming from their knowledge that DC had given copies of Action 7 to Bob Kane and others at the end of 1938, But I'd never seen the original complaint to know which heroes they laid claim to. Finally saw a page of it today in which they assert that they were ripped off in the creation of Batman, Green Lantern and the Flash, Johnny Quick and Aquaman,

 

 

[jaybuck43]

Whoever scanned this did a poor job, half of the page is cut off. But from what I can read, this was a terrible argument. Basically it sounds like their lawyer was trying to double down on the assertion that if the court rules that Superman should stay with"DC" and not revert to SS, then they should at least be entitled to royalties, from the use of their creation because those books are derivative works. Here's the problem, only Superboy and LL would even have a shot, and even then its a bit of a stretch. O well. Would love to read the whole thing if you know where it is

[bluechip]

Whoever scanned this did a poor job, half of the page is cut off. But from what I can read, this was a terrible argument. Basically it sounds like their lawyer was trying to double down on the assertion that if the court rules that Superman should stay with"DC" and not revert to SS, then they should at least be entitled to royalties, from the use of their creation because those books are derivative works. Here's the problem, only Superboy and LL would even have a shot, and even then its a bit of a stretch. O well. Would love to read the whole thing if you know where it is

 

I am the one who did the bad scan. Or, I should say, my program did. It's copied from the screen, not a scan

 

I would agree that it was a big stretch. Guessing their lawyer thought they should assert rights to the moon before coming back to earth.

 

There is a lot to wade through but this site has a collection of documents in seevral legal actions

 

http://comicsbeat.com/the-legal-view-historic-documents-in-the-siegel-shuster-lawsuits/

 

Didn't have time to read it all, but did see the letter in which DC promised to give them 5% of net profits from virtually all exploitation of Syperman. Its my understanding they never got a check for any of it, and each time they brought it up DC said the comoany was paying them plenty and shouldn't have to pay more.

 

I know the purported rational behind several of those characters -- but I would love to hear why they also singled out Aquaman.

 

[jaybuck43]

Thanks for the link now I have weekend reading (thumbs u yea aquaman and batman had me scratching my head hard

[originalisbest]

Batman, as I understand it, was basically Bob Kane doing what Bob Kane did best (tracing) and trying a variety of different outfits on top of a Superman illo. No idea about aquaman (go talk to some fish!)

[bluechip]

Thanks for the link now I have weekend reading (thumbs u yea aquaman and batman had me scratching my head hard

 

I believe he thought the reveal of Bruce Wayne as Batman in Tec 27 was copied from very similar panels of Clark Kent going into a room and coming out as Superman. Seems like a small thing to hang a claim on the character royalties. But I imagine he found other things he considered similar. Word is he thought the basic elements were all copied -- secret identify, super powers, girlfriend who like the hero more than his civilian ID, fighting crime while running from the cops, etc

 

(I never heard that he claimed to have created the concept of super villains, but the first recurring super villains were in Action Comics -- not sure which issue, but I think either 13 or 14 with the Ultra Humanite. Prior to Batman's Dr. Death, Hugo Strange or Joker.

 

 

[BB-Gun]

Batman does seem to be a rip off. Someone on the Superman team probably redrew or did some creative ink jobs on the Detective 27 story.

[bluechip]

Batman does seem to be a rip off. Someone on the Superman team probably redrew or did some creative ink jobs on the Detective 27 story.

 

Can't believe I never saw that before.

 

What issue is that from?

 

[archiefan]

 

Can't believe I never saw that before.

 

What issue is that from?

 

More Fun #28

[BB-Gun]

Batman does seem to be a rip off. Someone on the Superman team probably redrew or did some creative ink jobs on the Detective 27 story.

 

Can't believe I never saw that before.

 

What issue is that from?

The story was originally in More Fun 28 (Jan 1938) and reprinted in black and white in Double Action Comics (1940).

[AnkurJ]

So is Spiderman also a rip off?

 

[bluechip]

So is Spiderman also a rip off?

 

 

There were actually a LOT of characters called Spider Man prior to Peter Parker. There was even one in Centaur comics in 1938 whose name was spelled with a hyphen. Years later the hyphen became an important part of the trademark for the name. In fact, if you look at the Smithsonian pix of the art for Amazing Fantasy 15 it is clear that he was originally named "Spiderman" and they added a hyphen before the final was sent to printer (check out the pics of the logo)

 

BTW for those who don't know, Centaur comics became Timely in 1939, which ultimately became Marvel

 

 

[bluechip]

 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

So is Spiderman also a rip off?

 

 

I think this is likely to be the first "spiderman" (in costume)...

 

[Xela]

 

I like this costume more

[ComicConnoisseur]

Batman does seem to be a rip off. Someone on the Superman team probably redrew or did some creative ink jobs on the Detective 27 story.

Reading it gave me a vibe of something of a similar scene in this 1931 classic.

 

I think whoever drew that scene was influenced by watching Lugosi in the 1931 Dracula.

[ComicConnoisseur]

 

I like this costume more

Those costumes are actually rare, and go for big bucks on Ebay.

I heard a rumor once that Steve Ditko saw that costume in a Woolworth`s,and thus got the idea for Spider-Man`s costume.

I think that costume was from the mid-1950s.

Like I said just a rumor. Don`t quote me on it.

 

[bluechip]

 

I like this costume more

Those costumes are actually rare, and go for big bucks on Ebay.

I heard a rumor once that Steve Ditko saw that costume in a Woolworth`s,and thus got the idea for Spider-Man`s costume.

I think that costume was from the mid-1950s.

Like I said just a rumor. Don`t quote me on it.

 

Never heard the Woolworth story. But the costume dates back to as early as the March, 1954 Toy fair in NYC.

 

Later versions of the costume added some elements which in some ways made it more like the Ditko version in 1962 (while at the same time less like it). Like this mask which adds the eyelets similar to Ditko version but also adds a big azz spider to the nose area.

 

 

In other versions of the ben cooper costumes the pants were black with web pattern only on the torso and feet (more like the ditko version than the costume pictured)

 

If you mix and match elements of the Ben Cooper costume you can create one that looks a lot like the Ditko version. Full head mask with pointy eyes and a web that is centered at the nose. Big spider in the chest area with web pattern on chest and feet. It's duo-tone with black and yellow but in black and white you could convince a lot of civilians it is the original comic book costume. Substitute red for the yellow web pattern area and you might convince some comic readers as well.

 

That said, the costume is but a design. What really made the series work is the character of Peter Parker and the secondary players. There had never been a teenage hero, or one who was a loser (and stayed a loser after he got his powers). And prior to 1962 who would think you could present an origin story in which the hero gets powers and decides to cash in, then inadvertently causes the death of his uncle?

 

[BB-Gun]

 

I like this costume more

Those costumes are actually rare, and go for big bucks on Ebay.

I heard a rumor once that Steve Ditko saw that costume in a Woolworth`s,and thus got the idea for Spider-Man`s costume.

I think that costume was from the mid-1950s.

Like I said just a rumor. Don`t quote me on it.

 

Never heard the Woolworth story. But the costume dates back to as early as the March, 1954 Toy fair in NYC.

 

Later versions of the costume added some elements which in some ways made it more like the Ditko version in 1962 (while at the same time less like it). Like this mask which adds the eyelets similar to Ditko version but also adds a big azz spider to the nose area.

 

 

In other versions of the ben cooper costumes the pants were black with web pattern only on the torso and feet (more like the ditko version than the costume pictured)

 

If you mix and match elements of the Ben Cooper costume you can create one that looks a lot like the Ditko version. Full head mask with pointy eyes and a web that is centered at the nose. Big spider in the chest area with web pattern on chest and feet. It's duo-tone with black and yellow but in black and white you could convince a lot of civilians it is the original comic book costume. Substitute red for the yellow web pattern area and you might convince some comic readers as well.

 

That said, the costume is but a design. What really made the series work is the character of Peter Parker and the secondary players. There had never been a teenage hero, or one who was a loser (and stayed a loser after he got his powers). And prior to 1962 who would think you could present an origin story in which the hero gets powers and decides to cash in, then inadvertently causes the death of his uncle?

 

I always thought that Spiderman's mask was modeled after the Ghost Rider.

[bluechip]

 

I like this costume more

Those costumes are actually rare, and go for big bucks on Ebay.

I heard a rumor once that Steve Ditko saw that costume in a Woolworth`s,and thus got the idea for Spider-Man`s costume.

I think that costume was from the mid-1950s.

Like I said just a rumor. Don`t quote me on it.

 

Never heard the Woolworth story. But the costume dates back to as early as the March, 1954 Toy fair in NYC.

 

Later versions of the costume added some elements which in some ways made it more like the Ditko version in 1962 (while at the same time less like it). Like this mask which adds the eyelets similar to Ditko version but also adds a big azz spider to the nose area.

 

 

In other versions of the ben cooper costumes the pants were black with web pattern only on the torso and feet (more like the ditko version than the costume pictured)

 

If you mix and match elements of the Ben Cooper costume you can create one that looks a lot like the Ditko version. Full head mask with pointy eyes and a web that is centered at the nose. Big spider in the chest area with web pattern on chest and feet. It's duo-tone with black and yellow but in black and white you could convince a lot of civilians it is the original comic book costume. Substitute red for the yellow web pattern area and you might convince some comic readers as well.

 

That said, the costume is but a design. What really made the series work is the character of Peter Parker and the secondary players. There had never been a teenage hero, or one who was a loser (and stayed a loser after he got his powers). And prior to 1962 who would think you could present an origin story in which the hero gets powers and decides to cash in, then inadvertently causes the death of his uncle?

 

I always thought that Spiderman's mask was modeled after the Ghost Rider.

 

Never realized the similarity until you pointed it out. But yeah, very similar eyes.