Yellow Claw #1 - 1st SA marvel?

[rjpb]

While there is general agreement that Fantastic Four #1 is the start of the Marvel Age - in that it begins a cohesive continuity of costumed characters that would come to be known as the Marvel Universe, I don't know that it can be considered the first SA Marvel, even given the super-hero centric origins of the term "silver age". Beyond the often dubious "prototypes" found in pre-hero Marvels, the Kirby/Ditko/Lee stories that dominated the "fantasy" output of Marvel from 1958 on, have more in common, both visually and thematically, with early Marvel superhero books than they do with the post-code Atlas output that preceeded them. I can't see any arguement that they are not "silver age" books.

 

The Atlas revival of the mid 50s would have to be considered the last gasp of the GA, as both the numbering of the 3 hero titles and what little continuity there was were obviously carried over from the 1949 demise of the Timely hero books. So where does that leave Yellow Claw #1-#4? A title that predates the pre-hero fantasy books, but postdates even those last few post-code issues of the Sub-Mariner. I don't know that the subsequent retconning of the Yellow Claw and Jimmy Woo into the Marvel Universe alone would make these books part of the Marvel Age, but the Yellow Claw was no doubt a "super-villian" from the start, and a continuing character as well, close enough to a superhero book, that it can't be lumped in with the rest of Atlas' various genre titles and dismissed as irrelevant to SA discussions.

 

The first issue, with it's cold war espionage storylines, and Joe Maneely art, looks like it has more in common with the Atlas "spy" books from the early-mid 50s, but the Kirby art and the inclusion of more sci-fi tinged stories in issues #2 thru #4, give these books a "silver-age" feel closer to the pre-hero books that were soon to appear.

 

Any thoughts?

[Forbush-Man]

 

While I find the Yellow Claw run to be very desireable, I find it diffucult to label it as a Silver Age book. It's still an Atlas publication and they (Atlas) are not associated with the Silver Age of comics. Just me. But then again, Amazing Adventures # 1 & 2 are still under Atlas and become a Marvel Publication with issue # 3. Dr. Droom, who appears in all six issues before renaming the series Amazing Adult Fantasy, is credited as the first Silver Age Superhero attempt made by Marvel.

 

I would certainly like to have Yellow Claw # 1-4.

One day,...oh yes,...one day!

 

Got any Yellow Claw's to share a scan?

[aardvark88]

I only ever owned Yellow Claw #1. Because of the excellent Joe Maneely art, I would lump it in as an Atlas standard comic.

Would not consider the Yellow Claw character a trendsetter as he bore too many resemblances to the insidious Fu Manchu from Sax Rohmer's Yellow Peril-type hardcovers to Detective Comics #1 up..

[rjpb]

Here's Yellow Claw #1 - definetly an Atlas book - but would have been on the stands at the same time as Showcase #4 - so is it a Silver Age book? I love this cover, and I also love the old Wu Fang and Yen Sin shudder pulps from the 30s, although Gleason's GA character The Claw was probably a bigger influence.

 

[rjpb]

A decidedly low grade copy of Yellow Claw #3 ( I really must upgrade) - while it has some excellent Kirby art inside - I love this issue for the Everett cover. One of these days I should pick up #2 & #4, but the Severin covers are not really his best work. Too bad Kirby never did one of the covers!

 

[tth2]

Here's Yellow Claw #1 - definetly an Atlas book - but would have been on the stands at the same time as Showcase #4 - so is it a Silver Age book?

 

Silver Age is more than a purely chronological concept, it's a substantive concept too. The substance of the Silver Age is the rebirth of super-heroes. Lots of Marvel/Atlas books got printed post-Showcase #4 but pre-FF 1, but I think there's very little dispute that FF 1 is the first Marvel SA book.

[rjpb]

Silver Age is more than a purely chronological concept, it's a substantive concept too. The substance of the Silver Age is the rebirth of super-heroes. Lots of Marvel/Atlas books got printed post-Showcase #4 but pre-FF 1, but I think there's very little dispute that FF 1 is the first Marvel SA book.

 

If pre-hero Marvels are not Silver Age books, would that include the pre-hero issues of TTA,TOS, JIM, and Strange Tales that were on the stands simultaneously with Marvel's super-hero books?

Is TTA #27 really a Silver Age book? After all, "The Man in the Ant-hill" was not originally meant to be a super-hero origin story. If Nick Fury hadn't later been introduced as a contemporary Marvel character in Strange Tales, would Sgt. Fury be part of Marvel's Silver Age pantheon, or would the title be considered more like the Marvel western titles of the era - Marvel books that aren't really part of the Marvel Universe?

 

I respect that the term Silver Age is less meaningful when discussing non-superhero books, but the divisions between genres isn't always clear cut. In addition to the issue of pre-hero Marvel characters that were later retconned into the super-heo continuity, DC has it's own debatable books.

Adam Strange - is he a DC sci-fi character more along the lines of Captain Comet, or is he a Silver-Age character? When do Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman go from being Golden Age characters to Silver Age ones?

 

Undoubtably FF#1 represents the start of an era for Marvel, much the same way Showcase #4 does for DC, but to the casual reader of 1961, it probably looked like it had more in common with the standard MCG monsters and aliens title, than it did with JLA or the The Flash. Marvel's next new title was about a gray/green-skinned modern day Mr.Hyde with a fairly un-heroic name and no colorful costume, once again connecting more with the pre-hero era than with the idea of a super-hero rebirth. I think the pre-hero Marvel books are as much a part of the Silver Age as early issues of Detective, Adventure and More Fun are part of the Golden Age.

[tth2]

Silver Age is more than a purely chronological concept, it's a substantive concept too. The substance of the Silver Age is the rebirth of super-heroes. Lots of Marvel/Atlas books got printed post-Showcase #4 but pre-FF 1, but I think there's very little dispute that FF 1 is the first Marvel SA book.

 

If pre-hero Marvels are not Silver Age books, would that include the pre-hero issues of TTA,TOS, JIM, and Strange Tales that were on the stands simultaneously with Marvel's super-hero books?

Is TTA #27 really a Silver Age book? After all, "The Man in the Ant-hill" was not originally meant to be a super-hero origin story. If Nick Fury hadn't later been introduced as a contemporary Marvel character in Strange Tales, would Sgt. Fury be part of Marvel's Silver Age pantheon, or would the title be considered more like the Marvel western titles of the era - Marvel books that aren't really part of the Marvel Universe?

 

I respect that the term Silver Age is less meaningful when discussing non-superhero books, but the divisions between genres isn't always clear cut. In addition to the issue of pre-hero Marvel characters that were later retconned into the super-heo continuity, DC has it's own debatable books.

Adam Strange - is he a DC sci-fi character more along the lines of Captain Comet, or is he a Silver-Age character? When do Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman go from being Golden Age characters to Silver Age ones?

 

Undoubtably FF#1 represents the start of an era for Marvel, much the same way Showcase #4 does for DC, but to the casual reader of 1961, it probably looked like it had more in common with the standard MCG monsters and aliens title, than it did with JLA or the The Flash. Marvel's next new title was about a gray/green-skinned modern day Mr.Hyde with a fairly un-heroic name and no colorful costume, once again connecting more with the pre-hero era than with the idea of a super-hero rebirth. I think the pre-hero Marvel books are as much a part of the Silver Age as early issues of Detective, Adventure and More Fun are part of the Golden Age.

 

All very good points, to which the best answer I can offer is to steal a line from Justice Potter Stewart and say, "I can't define SA, but I know it when I see it." Clearly the definition is clearer in retrospect than at the time. Hulk did become a superhero. The man in the anthill did become a superhero, and therefore TTA 27 should be considered a SA book, although paradoxically issues 28-34 should not.

 

Good points about Adam Strange and Sgt. Fury. I think the easy answer for both is yes, they're part of the main SA, because both were integrated pretty quickly with the mainstream SA superhero universe. Adam Strange of course was quickly tied into the JLA, so in that sense was different from "pure" sci-fi heroes like Captain Comet, Atomic Knights, etc. Sgt. Fury too, due to things like the appearance of Reed Richards in issue #3 (I think it's #3) and of course Cap in #13. So I guess what distinguished Fury from the Marvel westerns was simply an intent on the part of the Stan Lee to tie Fury into the SA superhero universe, however subtly, whereas no such attempts were made with the westerns.

[Forbush-Man]

Good points about Adam Strange and Sgt. Fury. I think the easy answer for both is yes, they're part of the main SA, because both were integrated pretty quickly with the mainstream SA superhero universe. Adam Strange of course was quickly tied into the JLA, so in that sense was different from "pure" sci-fi heroes like Captain Comet, Atomic Knights, etc. Sgt. Fury too, due to things like the appearance of Reed Richards in issue #3 (I think it's #3) and of course Cap in #13. So I guess what distinguished Fury from the Marvel westerns was simply an intent on the part of the Stan Lee to tie Fury into the SA superhero universe, however subtly, whereas no such attempts were made with the westerns.

 

Yep, what he said! TTA # 27, while sometimes debateable as to "Prototype", did in fact become a Superhero & had cross-over characters appear in the run, as well as becoming a founding member of the Avengers later. TTA # 27 was also a Marvel Comic which appears post FF # 1, which also helps (second hero to appear in Marvel Universe).

 

Sgt. Fury had two key cross-overs which tie him into the Marvel Universe with the appearances of both Reed Richards & Captain America. Not to mention his battling Baron Zemo who is later credited with Bucky's demise.

 

Yellow Claw would have a little better argument if 1) The entire run had been under the Marvel Publications & 2) If Kirby or Ditko, or both, had art & covers for the entire run. I tend to lump the SciFi/Monster books with Kirby/Ditko art into the Silver Age regardless of it being an Atlas or Marvel Publication. Just MHO.

 

Good thread, I might add.

[Forbush-Man]

This point to: The Silver Age, or any age, is generally defined a something that effects a change in the statis quo. Martian Manhunter first appears in DC before Showcase # 4, But it was Showcase # 4 which relaunched the Silver Age superhero revival at DC. FF # 1 did the same for Marvel, even though Dr. Droom is credited as Marvel's first SA superhero attempt.

[rjpb]

I have no problem with Showcase #4 as the 1st SA comic, even if one accepts Martian Manhunter retroactively as the first SA character to appear in a DC book. Columbus may not have been the first European to set foot in the western hemisphere, but his "discovery" had a most profound impact on the people of both Europe and the Americas - so it is his 1492 voyage that is considered a turning point in world history.

 

The arguement that "silver age" is more a description of a cohesive continuity spanning a given companie's super-hero titles, rather than a chronological term for an entire industry's or even genre's output is a cogent one. When discussing the "ages" of comics, the SA has a unique status as being the only one named while it was still in progress - and is the most super-herocentric of "ages". No one disputes that any comic produced during the early 1940s is part of the Golden Age, even if we can't agree when it ended, but as the "Silver" age of heroes rolled out more slowly, there seems to be a arguement for the idea that most comic books published between 1956-1968 are not actually "silver age" comics, as the content of most Dells, Archies, Classics Illustrated, Gold Keys, Romance, Sci-fi, War and Western comics fall outside

a universe of costumed heroes.

 

Perhaps the defenition of "Atom Age" needs to be expanded beyond the arrival of the comics code to include at the least all sci-fi, fantasy and monster comics published through the end of the dime era.

[tth2]

Perhaps the defenition of "Atom Age" needs to be expanded beyond the arrival of the comics code to include at the least all sci-fi, fantasy and monster comics published through the end of the dime era.

 

I would definitely agree with that!

[Forbush-Man]

The arguement that "silver age" is more a description of a cohesive continuity spanning a given companie's super-hero titles, rather than a chronological term for an entire industry's or even genre's output is a cogent one. When discussing the "ages" of comics, the SA has a unique status as being the only one named while it was still in progress - and is the most super-herocentric of "ages". No one disputes that any comic produced during the early 1940s is part of the Golden Age, even if we can't agree when it ended, but as the "Silver" age of heroes rolled out more slowly, there seems to be a arguement for the idea that most comic books published between 1956-1968 are not actually "silver age" comics, as the content of most Dells, Archies, Classics Illustrated, Gold Keys, Romance, Sci-fi, War and Western comics fall outside

a universe of costumed heroes.

 

Perhaps the defenition of "Atom Age" needs to be expanded beyond the arrival of the comics code to include at the least all sci-fi, fantasy and monster comics published through the end of the dime era.

 

The Golden Age, according to Overstreet, is 1938 (Action # 1) to 1945. You can mark the end of the paper drives due to the end of the war August 1945, or use the last WWII covers. I'm for using the last WWII covers as the reference point. (I don't really know the exact period of the paper drives & when they actually ended).

 

Atom Age is described as the period from 1946 to 1956. I think it's safe to say 1956 is due to Showcase # 4.

 

Silver Age is considered 1956 to 1969. I would extend that to include books before .15 cover prices began, but that's just me.

 

Bronze Age is the most debatable & we really don't want to go there !!! It's been debated to death.

 

Anyway, it's in the Glossary of your current Overstreet.

[rjpb]

Fuelman,

While Overstreet's chronology of ages is useful in a very general sense, we all know there isn't a uniform cover date for the shift from GA to Atom Age to SA. There seems to be a growing acceptance that the shift varies not only from company to company, but from title to title. It has been suggested that Batman doesn't become a true SA title until the debut of the "new look" in 1964! That may be a bit extreme, but long-running titles like Batman didn't suddenly become Atom Age books when the war ended, or Silver Age books the same month Showcase #4 hit the stands. I'm comfortable with the idea that these ages overlap to some degree, and may be completely irrelevant when discussing cerrtain genres like Disney books or undergrounds.

 

On a side note I advocate that 1967- approx. 1979 be known as the Stoned Age when discussing undergrounds, as the "drug" culture was perhaps the greatest influence on undergrounds during this period. Starting around 1980, the creative center of underground comix moved from SF to NY, and a new generation of "punk" influenced creators began to make themselves known.

[PovertyRow]

Really tintriguing things here. It is making my long dormant SA brian cells active (or perhaps delusionarily so).

 

Anyway: some replies and observations to a most fascinating question:

 

rjpb notes: While there is general agreement that Fantastic Four #1 is the start of the Marvel Age - in that it begins a cohesive continuity of costumed characters that would come to be known as the Marvel Universe...Any thoughts?

 

I would have to say that costuming of the characters is secondary to the "Marvel angst factor"- what I mean by this is the intentional decision to portray regular people in irregular circumstances. Kind of like many episodes of THE TWILIGHT ZONE where we would see ordinary people being accosted by aliens or time shifts etc. Things we could "relate to" - "relate to"probably being the biggest appeal of the Marvel SA. This WAS definitely brought put in the Kirby/Ditko pre-hero Marvels and the other post-coide Atlas books - but never with the continuity factor of a continuing storyline combined with angst. AF 15 and Hulk 1 continued this angst thing.

 

Fuel says: While I find the Yellow Claw run to be very desireable, I find it diffucult to label it as a Silver Age book. It's still an Atlas publication and they (Atlas) are not associated with the Silver Age of comics. Just me.

 

 

Actually an intriquiing line of thought. While the general consensus of SA is - say - Showcase 4, well in them days Marvel WAS still Atlas and I agree that little there showed any Marvel SA proclivities, beyond some of the pre-hero prototype issues. A simple observation but one which makes a very strong argument for different ages for different publishers!

 

rjpb observes: If pre-hero Marvels are not Silver Age books, would that include the pre-hero issues of TTA,TOS, JIM, and Strange Tales that were on the stands simultaneously with Marvel's super-hero books?

 

Man that is pretty intriquiing! Like Fuel's statement I cited above, it speaks to a concept as opposed to a year, and speaks to different years being suitable for different publishers (well, at least DC vs Marvel, anyway!)

 

 

rjpb further enquires: Is TTA #27 really a Silver Age book? After all, "The Man in the Ant-hill" was not originally meant to be a super-hero origin story."

 

Now I don;t know how much of this was Marvel hypoe, but I recall The Man in the Ant Hill (TTA 27) vs The Man in the Bee Hive (TOS 32???) being touted as some sort of "fan preference" thing and that one or the other was going to be carried on in a storyline. Now this is 1980's memories so am not sure but...interesting.

 

So anyway this was a fun response. It made me recall my SA days and hopefully a bit of what I said was valid?

[Aman619]

Pov - - your post reminds me of the great saying: You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink! Meaning, in this SA case, you can make all the sense you in the world in arguing for a new standard for the beginning of the SA etc, but you cant change popular opinion. Its too ingrained..

[PovertyRow]

you can make all the sense you in the world in arguing for a new standard for the beginning of the SA etc, but you cant change popular opinion. Its too ingrained..

 

Thanks aman! But I bet a lot of folks feel the way I do. DC and Atlas/Marvel where in very different grooves in the mid 50's. The fact that DC hit the SA 5 or so years before Marvel seems irrelevant but I do not get that. Think many more do not get that too!

[Forbush-Man]

rjpb observes: If pre-hero Marvels are not Silver Age books, would that include the pre-hero issues of TTA,TOS, JIM, and Strange Tales that were on the stands simultaneously with Marvel's super-hero books?

 

Here's something to consider;

 

I actually do consider the pre-hero Kirby/Ditko books to be Silver Age books, even though quite a few predate Fantastic Four # 1. I'm less inclined to include these same books which have either Kirby or Ditko(one or the other but not both in the same book). I like to think of it this way: Kirby, Ditko & Stan Lee created the Marvel Silver Age, so the earliest begining point, IMHO, is with pre-hero books written by Stan Lee and including artwork by both Kirby & Ditko.

 

First real attempt at Marvel Super-hero: Amazing Adventures # 1, first Dr. Droom.

 

First actual beginning: Fantastic Four # 1.

 

Does that make sense?

[Forbush-Man]

I tend to lump the SciFi/Monster books with Kirby/Ditko art into the Silver Age regardless of it being an Atlas or Marvel Publication. Just MHO.

 

My statement from the earlier conversation. My favorite SA books to collect are these very books pre Marvel Comics logo. 1958-1963.

[Timely]

rjpb further enquires: Is TTA #27 really a Silver Age book? After all, "The Man in the Ant-hill" was not originally meant to be a super-hero origin story."

 

 

The Spider-man story in Amazing Fantsay #15 was also a thow away idea that was not really intended to go anywhere as well.

 

West