The Marvel Universe - what "counts" ?

[ComicConnoisseur]

Honestly going forth this Marvel Universe really matters.

 

The Marvel cinematic universe is going to end up being the most widely known amongst the world masses

That`s why I don`t bother with all this continuity stuff in comic books anymore.

If you want a cut off point,then

The Marvel Universe ended with Secret Wars.

The DC Universe ended with the Crisis on Infinite Earth.

All the rest of the Marvel and DC stories are just what if and imaginary tales.

[Logan510]

I'm really okay when a writer does it like John Byrne did, in not making any topical references. The only part that will bug me is if the character is not written consistently. Like Cap turning into a bully, for instance. That's just out of character and not a "fresh take" on someone.

 

 

I haven't read a new Marvel book in about 14 years. it was one of the hardest decisions I made in my life up to that point having been a reader since the mid / late 1970's. The characters I loved weren't "in character" anymore and once I realized I didn't like what they had become it made the decision easier...but no less sad.

[BarryAllen]

I think you're thinking too much. They're trying to keep the characters at pretty much the same age the whole time, provided its convenient. Just read and enjoy.

 

I just can't read 'em and enjoy 'em anymore.

 

I like the old stuff. Things changed and characters aged, albeit rather slowly.

 

Ditko actually aged Peter Parker.

Peter was 15 (or so) when he was bit by the spider.

 

Between Amazing fantasy #15 and ASM #38, Peter graduated High School and started college. He was overcoming the guilt from Uncle Ben's death (see ASM #33). He bought new clothes and changed his wardrobe (around the same time). He broke up with his first high school crush (yes, I know Betty wasn't in High school, but Peter was). He started showing interest in Gwen.

 

Things changed in the first decade of Marvel. Reed and Sue got married. Got pregnant. Had a baby.

 

Nowadays, even without thinking, it's a convoluted mess. Or so it seems. I could be wrong.

 

Definitely a mess. It's probably the # 1 reason I don't read modern superhero comics. I like continuity. I like a share universe with a linked history. One of the things I used to love when reading comics was the little blurbs that referenced a previous issue and/or title as background. It made you want to seek out that issue and read what happened.

 

The problem with this logic and point of view is that the only way to ensure "continuity" would be to start over a-la New 52 (which people also complain about endlessly) or something to that affect. The characters can't move on at the same pace into infinity - they age, grow-up, change, evolve, etc. If the stories maintained continuity from when they were launched, most of the characters would be too old to act as superheroes any longer or would be dead.

 

So how would you prefer it:

1) your favorite heroes are old geezers and/or dead?

or

2) restart the whole universe from scratch ever 15-20 years or so to ensure they stay around?

 

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

[Comicopolis]

Currently, everybody has a time machine in the Marvel Universe.

[Jeffro.]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

[Comicopolis]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

[Logan510]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

 

+1

I may not read many new issues these days, but there are a TON of back issues that are "new" to me.

[BarryAllen]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

 

Personally, I am hopeful that today's youth enjoy the stories and aren't as comic-snob as many of the people on this site are. Extremely finickiness on "continuity" (which is and was clearly far from perfect in all comic ages despite what people like to say) deters too many from enjoying some modern writers and artists that are great for the hobby. I for one, hope that comics stick around (electronic or otherwise) and wish that experienced collectors wouldn't dissuade younger collectors from reading modern books because of their own nostalgia...

 

The "things were better when I was young" argument is silly and only puts more distance between people.

 

:shrug:

[Jeffro.]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

 

Personally, I am hopeful that today's youth enjoy the stories and aren't as comic-snob as many of the people on this site are. Extremely finickiness on "continuity" (which is and was clearly far from perfect in all comic ages despite what people like to say) deters too many from enjoying some modern writers and artists that are great for the hobby. I for one, hope that comics stick around (electronic or otherwise) and wish that experienced collectors wouldn't dissuade younger collectors from reading modern books because of their own nostalgia...

 

The "things were better when I was young" argument is silly and only puts more distance between people.

 

:shrug:

 

Who said I'm dissuading anyone? I may not care for modern superhero comics but that doesn't mean I'm actively campaigning against them. I'm simply taking my money elsewhere. Are you suggesting that I should be reading moderns for the "good of the comic industry" even if I don't like them? If people buy them, read them, and enjoy them, then fine. I'm not in that group. I'm not going to support something that does not interest me.

[jaeldubyoo]

It's not real. Say that 10 times, take a couple of aspirins, and go to bed. You'll feel better in the morning. Or not.

[BarryAllen]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

 

Personally, I am hopeful that today's youth enjoy the stories and aren't as comic-snob as many of the people on this site are. Extremely finickiness on "continuity" (which is and was clearly far from perfect in all comic ages despite what people like to say) deters too many from enjoying some modern writers and artists that are great for the hobby. I for one, hope that comics stick around (electronic or otherwise) and wish that experienced collectors wouldn't dissuade younger collectors from reading modern books because of their own nostalgia...

 

The "things were better when I was young" argument is silly and only puts more distance between people.

 

:shrug:

 

Who said I'm dissuading anyone? I may not care for modern superhero comics but that doesn't mean I'm actively campaigning against them. I'm simply taking my money elsewhere. Are you suggesting that I should be reading moderns for the "good of the comic industry" even if I don't like them? If people buy them, read them, and enjoy them, then fine. I'm not in that group. I'm not going to support something that does not interest me.

 

Ok.

[Unca Ben]

I got to thinking about it.

 

"Back in the day", they used to talk about about "Marvel time" vs regular time.

It would come up in lettercolls mostly, by readers and by Stan as well.

 

Basically it stated that there were times where one issue would pick up right where the other left off, so even though a month passed for the reader, only a second passed in the comic.

That, and Stan (or Roy, or whoever) would say time passed slower in the books than in real time.

 

But time did pass in the comics during the silver age...

 

Say Marvel would have stuck with a policy that 1 "Marvel" year = 3 years in real time (just for example).

If Peter was 15 in late 1962 we could be reading about a 32 year old Peter now.

If the ratio was 1:4, Peter could be 28.

 

Using the 1:4 ratio Reed Richards could be 50 now if he were in his mid thirties in 1961 (thus allowing him to have fought in WWII).

 

That might not be so bad.

 

There used to be a "Marvel" time. It would have been interesting to see the characters grow, albeit only at a third or fourth of our rate, during all this time.

 

[Jeffro.]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

 

Personally, I am hopeful that today's youth enjoy the stories and aren't as comic-snob as many of the people on this site are. Extremely finickiness on "continuity" (which is and was clearly far from perfect in all comic ages despite what people like to say) deters too many from enjoying some modern writers and artists that are great for the hobby. I for one, hope that comics stick around (electronic or otherwise) and wish that experienced collectors wouldn't dissuade younger collectors from reading modern books because of their own nostalgia...

 

The "things were better when I was young" argument is silly and only puts more distance between people.

 

:shrug:

 

Who said I'm dissuading anyone? I may not care for modern superhero comics but that doesn't mean I'm actively campaigning against them. I'm simply taking my money elsewhere. Are you suggesting that I should be reading moderns for the "good of the comic industry" even if I don't like them? If people buy them, read them, and enjoy them, then fine. I'm not in that group. I'm not going to support something that does not interest me.

 

Ok.

 

Oh come on now. Speak your mind

[BarryAllen]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

 

Personally, I am hopeful that today's youth enjoy the stories and aren't as comic-snob as many of the people on this site are. Extremely finickiness on "continuity" (which is and was clearly far from perfect in all comic ages despite what people like to say) deters too many from enjoying some modern writers and artists that are great for the hobby. I for one, hope that comics stick around (electronic or otherwise) and wish that experienced collectors wouldn't dissuade younger collectors from reading modern books because of their own nostalgia...

 

The "things were better when I was young" argument is silly and only puts more distance between people.

 

:shrug:

 

Who said I'm dissuading anyone? I may not care for modern superhero comics but that doesn't mean I'm actively campaigning against them. I'm simply taking my money elsewhere. Are you suggesting that I should be reading moderns for the "good of the comic industry" even if I don't like them? If people buy them, read them, and enjoy them, then fine. I'm not in that group. I'm not going to support something that does not interest me.

 

Ok.

 

Oh come on now. Speak your mind

 

You are right. You were not personally dissuading anyone, nor should you have to support something you don't like..

 

I don't need to take my frustration with other boardies out on you.

 

[rjrjr]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

 

Personally, I am hopeful that today's youth enjoy the stories and aren't as comic-snob as many of the people on this site are. Extremely finickiness on "continuity" (which is and was clearly far from perfect in all comic ages despite what people like to say) deters too many from enjoying some modern writers and artists that are great for the hobby. I for one, hope that comics stick around (electronic or otherwise) and wish that experienced collectors wouldn't dissuade younger collectors from reading modern books because of their own nostalgia...

 

The "things were better when I was young" argument is silly and only puts more distance between people.

 

:shrug:

 

 

Marvel and DC comics are no different than Archie when it comes to continuity. The characters are not ageing, they just get shuffled around a little bit to give people the perception that change is occurring.

 

Honestly, I admire *anyone* who can stick with a character from the big two for more than 10 years. I figured in 10 years you probably start seeing the same situations get repeated, the same villains get fought, etc. After 10 years, you start realizing you know all you need to know about the character and there isn't really anything else that will be done with the character.

 

There are comics from other publishers that do actually allow for characters to age, die, etc. It is no surprise to me that as the readership ages, they start branching out to independent titles. Some stick with Marvel and DC (probably for the investment ) while many just turn their attention to other titles that offer more than regurgitated stories, villains, situations, etc.

[BarryAllen]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

I don't need to pick my poison. I'm avoiding the poison altogether. I simply do not want to follow Marvel and DC anymore.

And you're wrong. I do have a time machine. I can read my old comics anytime I want to and get far greater enjoyment out of them than what is currently being produced.

 

 

Personally, I am hopeful that today's youth enjoy the stories and aren't as comic-snob as many of the people on this site are. Extremely finickiness on "continuity" (which is and was clearly far from perfect in all comic ages despite what people like to say) deters too many from enjoying some modern writers and artists that are great for the hobby. I for one, hope that comics stick around (electronic or otherwise) and wish that experienced collectors wouldn't dissuade younger collectors from reading modern books because of their own nostalgia...

 

The "things were better when I was young" argument is silly and only puts more distance between people.

 

:shrug:

 

 

Marvel and DC comics are no different than Archie when it comes to continuity. The characters are not ageing, they just get shuffled around a little bit to give people the perception that change is occurring.

 

Honestly, I admire *anyone* who can stick with a character from the big two for more than 10 years. I figured in 10 years you probably start seeing the same situations get repeated, the same villains get fought, etc. After 10 years, you start realizing you know all you need to know about the character and there isn't really anything else that will be done with the character.

 

There are comics from other publishers that do actually allow for characters to age, die, etc. It is no surprise to me that as the readership ages, they start branching out to independent titles. Some stick with Marvel and DC (probably for the investment ) while many just turn their attention to other titles that offer more than regurgitated stories, villains, situations, etc.

 

Yep, nicely summed up.

 

I personally like some of the New 52 stuff, even if it is just slight twists of regurgitated story-lines. I also have a subscription to Marvel Unlimited, so I spend a lot of time reading between different comics ages and comparing story-lines. Funny how old is always new again!

[VintageComics]

I got to thinking about it.

 

"Back in the day", they used to talk about about "Marvel time" vs regular time.

It would come up in lettercolls mostly, by readers and by Stan as well.

 

Basically it stated that there were times where one issue would pick up right where the other left off, so even though a month passed for the reader, only a second passed in the comic.

That, and Stan (or Roy, or whoever) would say time passed slower in the books than in real time.

 

But time did pass in the comics during the silver age...

 

Say Marvel would have stuck with a policy that 1 "Marvel" year = 3 years in real time (just for example).

If Peter was 15 in late 1962 we could be reading about a 32 year old Peter now.

If the ratio was 1:4, Peter could be 28.

 

Using the 1:4 ratio Reed Richards could be 50 now if he were in his mid thirties in 1961 (thus allowing him to have fought in WWII).

 

That might not be so bad.

 

There used to be a "Marvel" time. It would have been interesting to see the characters grow, albeit only at a third or fourth of our rate, during all this time.

 

That is exactly the way I always understood the comics.

 

The only exception would be if a year was stated in a book and then I'd just accept that time was stretched to accommodate that particular issue / date intersection.

 

I actually thought everyone read comics that way. Must be an 'old' thing.

 

 

[vaillant]

It isn't an easy question to answer and in reality its not going to please everyone. But they HAVE to keep moving forward somehow (how else will the characters remain popular with the world's youth and ensure their future?), so pick your poison because no one has a time machine but Doom.

 

With all the respect, this post does not make any sense, as Marvel hadn’t cared for about twenty years. It‘s not an "overnight" phenomena.

You can do a million things if you are a good writer, and intentioned to put yourself in service of the characters, instead of showcasing your obsessions or accepting to produce nonsense. Some wonderful examples could be the characters of Daimon Hellstrom, Jessica Drew and Michael Morbius, for which the authors developed a constant and brilliant path of maturation and growth, around 1989.

The quality of what Marvel always represented had never been so strong as it had been between 1986 and 1989. In two or three years, they would have had laid the basis for a complete neglection (first), and then negation of all they had built.

 

Nowadays, even without thinking, it's a convoluted mess. Or so it seems. I could be wrong.

 

Of course not. You are entirely right. Marvel started to deliberately go awry when it made precise choices, around 1989. Before that, it just took good writers to pick up the stories and the character’s lives, adding sense and meaning.

 

The movies have little to nothing to do with what the Marvel Age was about.

Marvel no longer represent itself. Unless something miraculous happens, it is a dead body.

[General Zod]

No, I did too. I always appreciated the theory of relativity and knew that in order for long-standing fictional universes to work, we have to accept a ratio of time that moves much slower than reality does. As it is with most fiction (especially sci-fi), some level of suspending belief has to happen in order for the story to reach you.

[vaillant]

I got to thinking about it.

 

"Back in the day", they used to talk about about "Marvel time" vs regular time.

It would come up in lettercolls mostly, by readers and by Stan as well.

 

Basically it stated that there were times where one issue would pick up right where the other left off, so even though a month passed for the reader, only a second passed in the comic.

That, and Stan (or Roy, or whoever) would say time passed slower in the books than in real time.

 

But time did pass in the comics during the silver age...

 

Say Marvel would have stuck with a policy that 1 "Marvel" year = 3 years in real time (just for example).

If Peter was 15 in late 1962 we could be reading about a 32 year old Peter now.

If the ratio was 1:4, Peter could be 28.

 

Using the 1:4 ratio Reed Richards could be 50 now if he were in his mid thirties in 1961 (thus allowing him to have fought in WWII).

 

That might not be so bad.

 

There used to be a "Marvel" time. It would have been interesting to see the characters grow, albeit only at a third or fourth of our rate, during all this time.

 

That is exactly the way I always understood the comics.

 

The only exception would be if a year was stated in a book and then I'd just accept that time was stretched to accommodate that particular issue / date intersection.

 

I actually thought everyone read comics that way. Must be an 'old' thing.

 

 

This is a question I reflected upon in 1988-1990. If you don’t want to age the characters (a thing that more or less to some degree in a realistic comic would be unavoidable) more than a ratio, it would just be enough to keep determinate time spans, and the narration, likely.

 

By welcoming unlikeliness, believing you can remove meaning and inherent laws, you cultivate more or less illusions, which just make poor literature.

 

Not all comics can be like Gasoline Alley, but Marvel managed to give flesh to a little miracle until it lasted. We should be grateful for that, and that alone.