The Marvel Universe - what "counts" ?

[Unca Ben]

In the Dr. Strange movie thread a conversation came up regarding the current sate of the Marvel universe and characters.

 

It was revealed to me that Reed and Ben never fought in WWII, and they gained their powers about 10 years ago.

 

I have questions for those well versed in the current comics published by Marvel.

 

Do the current Marvel stories take place in what I see on marvel wiki as Earth 616?

 

Which books and their issue numbers are the official cannon of the current Marvel titles?

 

If some of the older books never happened, where is the cutoff, and when did the new continuity start to take place?

 

Is it dependent on each individual title, or was there a month/ year of publication that reset everything?

 

Are some issues in a title selectively left as cannon, while others are pulled?

 

 

Example: If the events in FF #1 didn't happen in 1963, but happened about "ten years ago", then did FF #1 "not happen"?

 

If FF #1 did happen, not in 1961 but decades later, then what about FF #13, for example? (in other words, why would the FF fight the Red Ghost to stop Russia from "claiming the moon for themselves" if all this happened decades after the US landed on the Moon? )

 

Richard Nixon is shown as President in FF #103. If the FF gained their powers decades after 1970, then this issue didn't happen?

 

One could go through any Marvel title and pull multiple examples like this.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

[Comicopolis]

Comic book continuity is crazy.

[revat]

I think you're thinking too much. They're trying to keep the characters at pretty much the same age the whole time, provided its convenient. Just read and enjoy.

[General Zod]

As the Hulk would put it, "Hulk head hurt".

 

With all the retconning both Marvel and DC do, continuity will be and will always be a mess. Sometimes as a reader I feel as if I'm forced to just nod and smile.

[Dr. Balls]

I think you're thinking too much. They're trying to keep the characters at pretty much the same age the whole time, provided its convenient. Just read and enjoy.

 

+1

 

I said that in the other thread, too. Trying to figure out timeline continuity would destroy any sort of enjoyment about the actual story I am reading.

 

When I read my X-Men titles and they are on Alcatraz Island, and Wolverine is in 12 places at once and they talk about M-Day and all this other krap, I just filter it out and read the story and enjoy what's happening in those 24 pages, instead of trying to align it with 60 years of backstory.

[mob_medina7]

great thread!there(Marvel) always keeping in continuity but changing the years everything's happened to remain fresh which could confuse the hell out of someone who read books back in the day and starts collecting again or a new reader perhaps!For Instance Frank Castle(The Punisher)No longer served in The Vietnam War In New revamped Continuity hes served in The Gulf war as did Marc Spector(Moon Knight)Instead of previous wars as well!it gets pretty screwy which is why there competitor DC Just Rebooted there whole Universe because of things like this and started the New 52. Another question is should Marvel reboot like DC did?r is it better the way they've doing things by just updating Continuity?

[Unca Ben]

I think you're thinking too much. They're trying to keep the characters at pretty much the same age the whole time, provided its convenient. Just read and enjoy.

 

I just can't read 'em and enjoy 'em anymore.

 

I like the old stuff. Things changed and characters aged, albeit rather slowly.

 

Ditko actually aged Peter Parker.

Peter was 15 (or so) when he was bit by the spider.

 

Between Amazing fantasy #15 and ASM #38, Peter graduated High School and started college. He was overcoming the guilt from Uncle Ben's death (see ASM #33). He bought new clothes and changed his wardrobe (around the same time). He broke up with his first high school crush (yes, I know Betty wasn't in High school, but Peter was). He started showing interest in Gwen.

 

Things changed in the first decade of Marvel. Reed and Sue got married. Got pregnant. Had a baby.

 

Nowadays, even without thinking, it's a convoluted mess. Or so it seems. I could be wrong.

[Davenport]

Any help would be appreciated.

Retroactive continuity

 

Retcons are common in pulp fiction, especially comic books published by long-established publishers such as DC, Marvel, and leading manga publishers. The long history of popular titles and the number of writers who contribute stories can often create situations that demand clarification or revision. Retcons also appear in soap operas, serial dramas, movie sequels, professional wrestling angles, video games, radio series, and other forms of serial fiction.

 

"Evergreen" characters evolve to stay fresh and relevant. If they plan on staying evergreen.

 

It means as a consumer you have to always be discerning if you're the target audience for a particular work. You may not be. And even if you are, you may not enjoy the author's take. Fantasy fiction's like that.

[mob_medina7]

^yes Retconing that was the word I was looking for!!

[Buzzetta]

While DC has utilized alternate Earths, Marvel has always used what we will call a sliding scale. There are few constants that relate to the time period that will probably be locked into the Marvel Universe forever.

 

The only locked part of the timeline I can think of from the introduction of the character involves WWII. Nick Fury, Captain America and the Invaders fought in WWII. Namor is a mutant Atlantean so he doesn't age. Cap and Bucky were in suspended animation where they were revived in the year "X" Nick Fury (Sr) doesn't age due to the infinity formula.

 

Examples of sliding timeline:

Frank Castle fought in Vietnam. I think he is now referred to as simply a war veteran where he was alluded to having fought in the Middle East.

 

Flash Thompson fought in Vietnam. Now it has been established that he is a war veteran that fought in the Middle East.

 

 

[Badlands]

As the Hulk would put it, "Hulk head hurt".

 

With all the retconning both Marvel and DC do, continuity will be and will always be a mess. Sometimes as a reader I feel as if I'm forced to just nod and smile.

 

+1! Smile and enjoy. There are a lot of excellent, well written Marvel titles out there on the stands now, where continuity really doesn't apply. The current Thor run comes to mind quickly. Future King Thor fights a very very old Galactus! Who needs continuity when you have that?!

[gaz973]

In my mind, the old stories still happened but some of the topical references just need ignoring or updating.

[mob_medina7]

In my mind, the old stories still happened but some of the topical references just need ignoring or updating.

+1 This^

[rjpb]

Continuity is only relevant for the length of a writer's run on a title, and even then it's best not to look too closely. Fortunately some characters have histories less wedded to specific historical events than others, so it's easier to reconcile adventures written 40 years apart, but I'm far more interested if a character can still be made entertaining, than if their current storyline is simpatico with the ones from my childhood.

 

 

[bb8]

I think you're thinking too much. They're trying to keep the characters at pretty much the same age the whole time, provided its convenient. Just read and enjoy.

 

I just can't read 'em and enjoy 'em anymore.

 

I like the old stuff. Things changed and characters aged, albeit rather slowly.

 

Ditko actually aged Peter Parker.

Peter was 15 (or so) when he was bit by the spider.

 

Between Amazing fantasy #15 and ASM #38, Peter graduated High School and started college. He was overcoming the guilt from Uncle Ben's death (see ASM #33). He bought new clothes and changed his wardrobe (around the same time). He broke up with his first high school crush (yes, I know Betty wasn't in High school, but Peter was). He started showing interest in Gwen.

 

Things changed in the first decade of Marvel. Reed and Sue got married. Got pregnant. Had a baby.

 

Nowadays, even without thinking, it's a convoluted mess. Or so it seems. I could be wrong.

 

Sounds like you should just re-read the old stuff. Personally, I just turn off the 'Peter Parker should be 69 years old!!' part of my brain and ask myself if I enjoy the writer and artist's interpretation.

[OrangeNemesis]

who cares… dive into a story and stop thinking about all the intricacies….

[Logan510]

I think you're thinking too much. They're trying to keep the characters at pretty much the same age the whole time, provided its convenient. Just read and enjoy.

 

I just can't read 'em and enjoy 'em anymore.

 

I like the old stuff. Things changed and characters aged, albeit rather slowly.

 

Ditko actually aged Peter Parker.

Peter was 15 (or so) when he was bit by the spider.

 

Between Amazing fantasy #15 and ASM #38, Peter graduated High School and started college. He was overcoming the guilt from Uncle Ben's death (see ASM #33). He bought new clothes and changed his wardrobe (around the same time). He broke up with his first high school crush (yes, I know Betty wasn't in High school, but Peter was). He started showing interest in Gwen.

 

Things changed in the first decade of Marvel. Reed and Sue got married. Got pregnant. Had a baby.

 

Nowadays, even without thinking, it's a convoluted mess. Or so it seems. I could be wrong.

 

 

I wish I could find it, but John Byrne spoke in great detail on his boards about how when he was at Marvel they had the unofficial "7 year rule" as in everything happened 7 years ago and it always happened 7 years ago, with the beginning event being the FF going up in their rocket. How did he handle Ben and Reed being WW2 vets? He never mentioned it once during his run. He said that's how they did things back then. Seems much simpler and cleaner than trying to justify every topical reference.

[Unca Ben]

 

Sounds like you should just re-read the old stuff.

 

-That's pretty much what I do.

 

I have to admit I kinda enjoy some of the new stuff I peruse or occasionally buy, but there's almost always something that turns me off enough not to continue buying the title. Cap being a bully in 'The Ultimates' (not to mention "Hulk horny!" ) for example

 

I know it's just me, and I don't expect a 60 year old Peter Parker. I suppose my time with the Marvel Universe has passed me by. I do wish I could feel otherwise.

 

 

 

 

 

[General Zod]

I'm really okay when a writer does it like John Byrne did, in not making any topical references. The only part that will bug me is if the character is not written consistently. Like Cap turning into a bully, for instance. That's just out of character and not a "fresh take" on someone.

[Jeffro.]

I think you're thinking too much. They're trying to keep the characters at pretty much the same age the whole time, provided its convenient. Just read and enjoy.

 

I just can't read 'em and enjoy 'em anymore.

 

I like the old stuff. Things changed and characters aged, albeit rather slowly.

 

Ditko actually aged Peter Parker.

Peter was 15 (or so) when he was bit by the spider.

 

Between Amazing fantasy #15 and ASM #38, Peter graduated High School and started college. He was overcoming the guilt from Uncle Ben's death (see ASM #33). He bought new clothes and changed his wardrobe (around the same time). He broke up with his first high school crush (yes, I know Betty wasn't in High school, but Peter was). He started showing interest in Gwen.

 

Things changed in the first decade of Marvel. Reed and Sue got married. Got pregnant. Had a baby.

 

Nowadays, even without thinking, it's a convoluted mess. Or so it seems. I could be wrong.

 

Definitely a mess. It's probably the # 1 reason I don't read modern superhero comics. I like continuity. I like a shared universe with a linked history. One of the things I used to love when reading comics was the little blurbs that referenced a previous issue and/or title as background. It made you want to seek out that issue and read what happened.