Unfairly Beating Up On Rob Liefeld...

[Matches_Malone]

No its more like some people love Liefeld's art and some hate it.

 

And the people that hate it do not like the fact others like it.

 

And the people that like it hate the fact that other people hate it.

 

And the people that like it like the fact that others like it.

 

And the people that hate it like the fact that others hate it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

No its more like some people love Liefeld's art and some hate it.

 

And the people that hate it do not like the fact others like it.

 

And the people that like it hate the fact that other people hate it.

 

And the people that like it like the fact that others like it.

 

And the people that hate it like the fact that others hate it.

 

And the people that like it hate the fact that the people who hate it like that others who hate it don't like it.

[eewwnuk]

enjoy!

 

[theflashunc]

Oldie, but a goodie:

 

[Ironmandrd]

A third party OPINION from someone reading from the sidelines (from someone who neither collects Liefeld nor thinks he caused the fall of the Roman empire):

 

I get it -- people have strong and divergent views on Liefeld, his historical place (good and bad) as an artist/publisher/person and the "value" of collecting his art.

 

Unfortunately some (much?) of that discourse has come across as hyperbolic, variants of "you suck, I'm right and you don't what you are talking about" or just so opinionated/emotional that its white noise. A shame too--good points on both sides get lost in the vitriol. But fine, whatever. Readers can make their own conclusions about who comes across better or who comes across more childish.

 

However, I personally find it unacceptable on a forum like this that there is the implication, which RMA has overtly expressed, that Liefeld art is junk and by necessary extension, that collectors of Liefeld art are stupid, blinded by nostalgia or just plain blind not to see all the mistakes. If someone doesn't personally like certain art or an artist, fine. Give your opinion or your facts. But don't disparage a category of people or an individual collector for collecting it. As they say, just my

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

However, I personally find it unacceptable on a forum like this that there is the implication, which RMA has overtly expressed, that Liefeld art is junk and by necessary extension, that collectors of Liefeld art are stupid, blinded by nostalgia or just plain blind not to see all the mistakes.

 

You couldn't have gotten it more wrong. You couldn't possibly have gotten it more wrong. Did you read what I wrote?

 

:shrug:

 

Liefeld art is junk art. It is not good art, by any definition you wish to use, except that he is the Michael Bay of comic art: lots of big, eye-satisfying flash, with no substance. But to say "oh, well, then you're saying anybody who likes Michael Bay films is stupid, right?"

 

No, no, ten thousand times NO.

 

You are the one making that correlation, not me.

 

"RMA says Liefeld art is junk art...*I* like his art...therefore, RMA is saying I'm junk!"

 

 

And on another point, you also have it wrong: it is not COLLECTORS of Liefeld art who are "blinded by nostalgia"...it is people who are ACTUALLY blinded by nostalgia, and who defend his art as "good", rather than recognizing it for the guilty pleasure it very much is: lacking substance, but really fun and exciting.

 

You make a great post about not responding emotionally to what people have to say...and then you respond emotionally by being offended by what you thought I said, but didn't actually say!

 

Amazing!

 

If someone doesn't personally like certain art or an artist, fine. Give your opinion or your facts. But don't disparage a category of people or an individual collector for collecting it. As they say, just my

 

The disparagement you see is entirely of your own creation. I have never, and WILL NEVER, disparage someone for collecting what they like. Ever.

 

If people insist on taking things personally, reading into things that which isn't there, you WILL be offended, guaranteed.

 

 

[Matches_Malone]

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That poor guy, he smashed himself to pulp. He must have been completely doped up to not feel the pain after his hands were the first thing to go...heroine's an awful mistress...

 

 

 

 

 

[Terry Doyle]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

[Matches_Malone]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

[Dano]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

 

Yup. I credit this to following the herd. Over the years, it is easy to be swayed away from something you once loved and peer pressured into popular opinion. It's a type of trying to fit in and not uncommon in the formative years of one's early twenties. I'm of course, speaking of my own experience and neutral observation.

 

Dan

[Terry Doyle]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

 

Is Towering Inferno included in that list? That was another Irwin Allen disaster movie.

 

Or should that be 'disastrous' movie?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

 

Yup. I credit this to following the herd. Over the years, it is easy to be swayed away from something you once loved and peer pressured into popular opinion. It's a type of trying to fit in and not uncommon in the formative years of one's early twenties. I'm of course, speaking of my own experience and neutral observation.

 

Dan

 

Of course.

 

It's true, a lot of people are influenced by peer pressure. There are, of course, always exceptions to every generalization and stereotype.

[Vikingreed]

I love the Liefeld runs on New Mutants and X-Force, and I don't care who knows it!

 

 

Heck, feel free to help me finish off my Liefeld Registry Set!

 

He helped create Cable, and Cable remains to this day one of my favorite characters.

I can't hate the man. The cover of #87 still makes me smile.

[Mephisto]

Cable sucks!

[Vikingreed]

Cable sucks!

 

Haha, I hear you....

 

I love that man.

[Mephisto]

Cable sucks!

 

Haha, I hear you....

 

I love that man.

 

When I was 13 I made that post on the AOL Marvel chat boards and 6 months later my parents account was still getting hate email about that thread. I was going come here and write it randomly but then saw your last post, so I thought this wont be random at all now.

[Matches_Malone]

Cable sucks!

 

That's why I have Direct TV

[Sharkey]

I'm don't think the amount of blame put on Rob for the implosion of the comics industry and failure of comic shops is fair. Although it's true that Image was a big offender in terms of late books or books never shipping, it wasn't just Rob who had problems meeting deadlines (Dale Keown anyone?).

 

In addition, you had numerous companies popping up trying to draw in new readers and using multiple covers, gimmicky foil embossed or special "distributor" copies to game retailers into ordering cases of a comic. It was a gimmick a minute. Valiant Gold Editions -- heck there was a flat gold and puffy gold version of Eternal Warrior #1. Polybagged comics with cards. Special give-aways, Marvel was the king of embossed, foil, and holographic covers, and X-Men 1 with A, B, C, D, and E cover versions was a shining example of what greed had wrought.

 

On top of that, you had a major finance magazine (I don't recall which one - maybe Forbes or Entrepreneur) touting that comic shops were the top new retail business, and next thing you know there's a comic shop every mile. Maybe not Starbucks level of penetration but I frequented new comic shops where the owners only jumped in because they heard it was the hot new business opportunity -- many of them didn't know comics that well, and in some cases they were comic fans and collectors who decided to become retailers and just were not savvy at operations, inventory management, and finances for managing the cash flow needed to run a successful comic book store. There were incredible examples of poor ordering (how many people got burned buying cases of Image titles, Topps Comics, Neal Adams Continuity (Armor and Silver Streak), along with multiple other "gambles" by ordering too many copies of books they hoped would be the next hot property?). And you had Marvel increasing their number of titles significantly so they could capture more and more of the market share.

 

Also, the distributors shoulder some of the blame. Diamond and Capital City made it incredibly easy to set up a "retailer" account which also fed the dragon in terms of proliferation of comic shops. Chuck Rozanski recalled in his Tales of the Database how in 1992 the Diamond Comics Distributors Conference had around 3000 attendees, and about half had been in business less than 2 years. One article (see below) noted that comic shops grew from 800 in 1979 to 10,000 by 1993.

 

Again, Image was certainly a major offender in the debacle, but hardly the only contributor, and I'd argue that Image or Rob Liefeld were not significantly to blame for the crash. It was more of a perfect storm of product glut from every company (and a proliferation of those companies), greed by distributors and retailers, poor execution and product delivery by some of the comic companies, and questionable business acumen by naive or inexperienced retailers who were trying to cash in on the craze.

 

There's a good article about the 1993 Comics Crash in the Weekly Standard:

The Crash of 1993: The Weekly Standard

 

 

[gambron]

Great summary and article, thanks for posting!

 

Ken