Unfairly Beating Up On Rob Liefeld...

[Jeffro.]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

 

Is Towering Inferno included in that list? That was another Irwin Allen disaster movie.

 

Or should that be 'disastrous' movie?

 

Towering Inferno was one of the better 70's disaster movies.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm don't think the amount of blame put on Rob for the implosion of the comics industry and failure of comic shops is fair.

 

You get no argument from me on most of about most of your post. There were many important factors involved, and the most damaging of all had little to do with Rob Liefeld directly: Ron Perelman's pillage of Marvel.

 

But...Image WAS one of the major causes of the crash, and Rob Liefeld, far and away, made the most negative impact within Image. Image's horrific lateness throughout 1992 and 1993 caused massive damage to the market, again, by forcing retailers to float money that they didn't have on orders for product that never came, and for which Diamond gave "credit" (instead of refunding the cash.) It got so bad, the entire distribution system rules had to be overhauled top to bottom, and Image was directly responsible for that.

 

In that respect, I think the amount of blame I've placed on Rob in that context is, of course, quite fair. Image and Rob did significant damage to the retail structure of the industry. They may not have been the dynamite that brought it down...but they certainly took out a piling or two.

 

. Valiant Gold Editions -- heck there was a flat gold and puffy gold version of Eternal Warrior #1.

 

There was actually a reason for this, and it's because 1/2 the flats (2500 copies) accidentally got shipped to the West Coast and sold. Retailers assumed these were second printings, since Marvel had been doing those second printings in gold for a couple of years already, and the cover price of $2.25 was printed on them.

 

The embossed golds were made in acknowledgement of that screw up. It's the only one with two gold versions for that very reason.

 

There's a good article about the 1993 Comics Crash in the Weekly Standard:

The Crash of 1993: The Weekly Standard

 

That's not a well researched article. There are many errors in it. For example: the writer claims there were 10,000 comic book stores in America in 1993. That's not true. There were 10,000 *Diamond accounts*, but those accounts did not represent 10,000 brick and mortar stores.

 

As well, 1992 wasn't the height of the bubble...1993 was. Things didn't begin to collapse until very late 1993/early 1994. It matters, because a significant amount of events were happening in a very short period of time.

 

And no, it wasn't the success of Diamond and Capital City that drove other distributors out of business...quite the contrary! Success is what allowed smaller distributors to pop up like weeds, littering the landscape. What drove the smaller distributors out of business, and ultimately Cap City, as well, was the massive credit extensions that they gave to retailers who had no business getting such extensions, combined with the atrocious lateness of Image and others to get product onto the shelves.

 

It's a bad article, but unless someone has spent a significant time in the trenches, they wouldn't know any better.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Ugh. People who don't know what they're talking about should not be writing articles for magazines.

 

"I have a comic book like that. In 1984, DC launched what became an immensely popular series, The New Teen Titans. The first issue carried a premium cover price of $1.25, the result of the series being printed not on the usual newsprint but on higher quality “Baxter” paper. I missed the first issue when it debuted, and the back-issue price quickly climbed. In a few months I saved up the scratch to buy a copy.

 

I paid $25, a not-inconsiderable sum for a 10-year-old. It was the jewel of my collection. Today you can buy a copy in near-mint condition for $1.50. "

 

Partly true, mostly false. The actual book that went up to $25 was New Teen Titans #1 from 1980. By the time the Baxter series came out, the NTT were on the downhill slide, not to return to their heights of glory of 1981-1983 ever again.

 

If he paid $25 for a NTT #1 from 1984....and I seriously doubt it...he got badly ripped off. The book was never more than a $5 book, *possibly* $10 at the utmost highest of heights.

 

And who says "scratch" in a magazine article...?

 

[Jeffro.]

It seems probable to me that maybe he indeed got ripped off. Not out of the question that someone would be trying to sell the 1984 New Teen Titans 1 for $25.

 

I refused to save up the scratch to pay $60 for a copy of the variant cover of Adventurers 1. Many years later got a high grade copy for a dollar or two

 

I will now start using the word "scratch" repeatedly

[Gatsby77]

On Image's lateness, it wasn't just Liefeld.

 

Recall that Shadowhawk # 1 was literally the only Image # 0 book (of seven) that shipped the actual month it was supposed to. The whole promotion was for an "Image Comics month" that was heavily-advertised but never materialized.

 

That said, I firmly believe that it was the Image-related delays on Deathmate (not the Return of Supermen or Turok 1, or Ultraverse, or Deathwatch2000) that finally crashed the industry.

 

Those other things didn't help, but the high cover prices, massive over-ordering, and horrific delays on Deathmate alone probably took out more comic shops than any other single series.

[Bird]

1963 Annual is coming out soon!

[Terry Doyle]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

 

Is Towering Inferno included in that list? That was another Irwin Allen disaster movie.

 

Or should that be 'disastrous' movie?

 

Towering Inferno was one of the better 70's disaster movies.

 

It's a movie I've never watched.

 

Irwin Allen was responsible for a lot of torture in my household during the 1980s when they started repeating his TV shows over here in the UK - and I stayed in every Sunday afternoon to videotape things like Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Lost in Space (total c*r*a*p, I know, but I loved those shows as a kid). Every week my wife would sit in agony as I dutifully recorded all those episodes.

 

Thankfully, over time, she eventually forgave me . . .

[Bird]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

 

Is Towering Inferno included in that list? That was another Irwin Allen disaster movie.

 

Or should that be 'disastrous' movie?

 

Towering Inferno was one of the better 70's disaster movies.

 

It's a movie I've never watched.

 

Irwin Allen was responsible for a lot of torture in my household during the 1980s when they started repeating his TV shows over here in the UK - and I stayed in every Sunday afternoon to videotape things like Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Lost in Space (total c*r*a*p, I know, but I loved those shows as a kid). Every week my wife would sit in agony as I dutifully recorded all those episodes.

 

Thankfully, over time, she eventually forgave me . . .

 

Lost in Space was awesome when I watched the in the early 70s. I saw Major West at a comic convention, all alone and looking like he wanted to be anywhere else but at the show, and went up and told him that when I was a child he was the coolest man on television. We had a nice conversation. I saw many of The Warriors that day as well.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It seems probable to me that maybe he indeed got ripped off. Not out of the question that someone would be trying to sell the 1984 New Teen Titans 1 for $25.

 

I refused to save up the scratch to pay $60 for a copy of the variant cover of Adventurers 1. Many years later got a high grade copy for a dollar or two

 

I will now start using the word "scratch" repeatedly

 

Scratch you!

 

But no, I don't think it's within the realm of possibility that he paid $25 for a NTT #1 1984, unless he shopped at the most expensive shop in Manhattan.

 

Adventurers #1 was an entirely different beast, made at the height of the B&W craze.

[Terry Doyle]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

 

Is Towering Inferno included in that list? That was another Irwin Allen disaster movie.

 

Or should that be 'disastrous' movie?

 

Towering Inferno was one of the better 70's disaster movies.

 

It's a movie I've never watched.

 

Irwin Allen was responsible for a lot of torture in my household during the 1980s when they started repeating his TV shows over here in the UK - and I stayed in every Sunday afternoon to videotape things like Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea and Lost in Space (total c*r*a*p, I know, but I loved those shows as a kid). Every week my wife would sit in agony as I dutifully recorded all those episodes.

 

Thankfully, over time, she eventually forgave me . . .

 

Lost in Space was awesome when I watched the in the early 70s. I saw Major West at a comic convention, all alone and looking like he wanted to be anywhere else but at the show, and went up and told him that when I was a child he was the coolest man on television. We had a nice conversation. I saw many of The Warriors that day as well.

 

The very early LIS episodes are still enjoyable to me . . . before they handed over the reins to Dr Smith and the Robot and it then became a weekly comedy series (that failed to amuse). One (later) episode featured talking vegetables as the baddies. (hysterical laughter).

[Bronty]

speaking of LOS they are worth squat but I remember really enjoying the LOS comics by innovation.

[Mighty Hal]

1963 Annual is coming out soon!

 

I hope so because, seriously, I'm still waiting for it.

[Bird]

1963 Annual is coming out soon!

 

I hope so because, seriously, I'm still waiting for it.

\

 

the first 1963 book was my first attempt at speculating as a college kid. I bought 5 copies. Want one? (thumbs u

[chrisco37]

 

 

 

...I'll tell you a personal anecdote. When I was 8 or 9, I watched the Poseidon Adventure (1972) on Saturday afternoon TV one day. I thought it was the greatest movie ever made, full of action and adventure, suspense and intrigue. It was, in a word, awesome.

 

Fast forward to 1993-ish, and I'm in college, and at Costco, and see a VHS copy of this "greatest movie in the world" for sale. I buy it. I watch it.

 

Biggest mistake ever. See, what I hadn't learned at that point was that my childhood self had experiences and feelings that, as all children's are, were wildly exaggerated. What was simply awesome to my 8 year old mind could not compete with my now 22 year old intellect, and capacity to not suspend disbelief, because I now knew better.

 

In short: I grew up. I recognized that I had learned many things about life in the interim, things that I couldn't overlook because I was aware of them, and I saw what a claptrap of a movie it really was. And it is, a terrible movie, with plot holes you can drive a truck through, terrible special effects (even for 1972!) and acting so over-the-top melodramatic, it made me gag.

 

 

 

C*r*a*p movie, yes, but Stella Stevens was very pleasing on the eye . . .

 

 

The Official Razzie Movie Guide has The Poseidon Adventure as one of The 100 Most Enjoyably Bad Movies Ever Made.

 

Some people focus on the enjoyable part, others will focus on the bad movie part.

 

Is Towering Inferno included in that list? That was another Irwin Allen disaster movie.

 

Or should that be 'disastrous' movie?

 

Towering Inferno was one of the better 70's disaster movies.

 

Other than the fact that the fire could not have started the way it did, you are correct.

 

Oh, and I agree with Dan (re: NM 87 cover). It looks as much McFarlane as it does Liefeld. Same with the 86 cover. We've said in other threads, Todd's inks tend to overpower the pencils.

[Bronty]

^ well I owe that observation to you in the first place It was you that first mentioned that to me, and IMO you couldn't be more right.

[chrisco37]

I'm awesome.

 

I've seen that cover too many times.

[Mephisto]

I would love to see Liefeld work on Archie comics.

[Bronty]

I had hi-jacked another thread with this and thought it should be it's own.

 

I think this posting last night answered most of your questions: http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1134966&GSub=157650

 

I lost all respect for the guy when I saw a gallery calling Liefeld a master.

 

Liefeld was simply a master at drawing and selling comics geared for teens as opposed to comics geared for "adults that used to be teen comic fans". In the grand scheme I almost consider what he and others like him were doing to be an exaggerated reaction to the "British Invasion" of more serious, adult-oriented comics that had taken off a few years earlier. I dare anyone to ask a 12 year old to flip through an issue of X-Force, an issue of Watchmen, and or Dark Knight Returns and ask them which they like better.

 

Why should we knock artists that drew comics geared for an audience that we ourselves were part of when we fell in love with comics in the first place?

 

So the guy chooses not to draw perfect anatomy, use proper perspective and so on, but his layouts were dynamic, exciting, and he sold way more comics than almost everyone else at the time drawing second rate characters and titles.

 

Clearly he is no Neal Adams or Frank Miller but he certainly has his rightful place in Comicdom and we should respect that and his fans at least a little bit, no?

 

Or maybe i'm just nuts...

 

Ken

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=19201

 

I'll leave that for others to respond to, but I read dark knight at 12 and freaking loved it.

 

I think you're giving 12 year old short shrift in assuming they'd prefer one over the other!

 

The way I remember it , where Rob succeeded was in drawing in the casual comics fan of the early 90s. The kids in school who'd seen a comic or two but weren't collectors but became casual readers at this time for a couple years before moving on. Generalizing of course.