Modern Growth

[rjrjr]

TMNT is obviously more popular because of the cartoon and movies.

 

It was the #1 toy and cartoon for a generation of kids.

 

There is no way that hasn't effected the prices and demand of the original comic series.

 

It would be a "key" obviously without all that, but those other forms of media made it THE #1 Copper Age book.

 

It is a once in a generation series. Maybe even more rare than that. Nothing really compares to TMNT that I can think of.

 

WD kinda, I suppose, but not really.

 

Thank you for that. I really don't know why there is a reluctance in the comic book community to accept the fact that exposure in other media (TV/movies) is what primarily drives the value of comic books.

You think high grade Action #1's have multiplied in value these past few years because of the quality and success of the Superman movies of late?

 

No, but Superman and Batman have both been helped by exposure in other media over the 70+ years of their existence. If it weren't for the radio series, movies, TV shows, cartoons, toys, etc. the first appearance of Superman and Batman would not be worth nearly as much as they are. Just look at the prices for first appearances of other comic book characters from the same era which are still around today but did not receive that exposure. No comparison.

[rjrjr]

Without a doubt. The stories are great, but the amount of people that walk into comic shops every Wednesday pales in comparison to the number of TV viewers...

 

It's all about exposure, which leads them inevitably back to the source material

People who don't read comics aren't spending four grand on a comic because it's the source material for a show they liked when they were a kid.

 

 

What happens is, and I see it a LOT on these boards is, speculators are just itching for the next thing to speculate on. A preview, an advert, anything. The first time so-and-so did this or that, anything that can be bought for cover and sold on eBay for multiples of cover for any reason.

 

This includes movie deals. As soon as a movie deal is struck a speculator will buy out all the stock in town on that particular issue, and sell them to other speculators. Not to TV show fans, to comic book speculators. Not to new readers. To other speculators, who will again hike up the price and sell it to yet another speculator. TV shows do not increase the number of readers. Long term, look at how many Batman movies there are. Look what Batman sells every month. The same small pool of speculators are buying and selling the same comics to each other for an ever inflating price. "I wish I had bought a copy when it was only $40, now I bought three at $120 each and will laugh all the way to the bank when it's the next Action #1" and "I shouldn't have gotten rid of this at $20, now I'm finally replacing that lost copy at the steal price of $250!"

 

These are all the same guys selling the same things to each other.

You think fans of TV shows are getting on eBay to buy slabbed 9.8's of comics the shows they like are based on? They aren't.

 

As TMNT became one of the biggest creator owned franchises in all of every kind of media you can think of, the series peak circulation never even made it to that of second and third tier Marvel titles. Because fans of the cartoon didn't know the comic existed, didn't care the comic existed, didn't like how the comic was different, preferred the Archie version, or just flat out didn't care for comics. And that hasn't changed.

 

+1

 

Speculators and comic collectors who don't want to be left out of the "next big thing." I believe the term for these people is lemming:

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lemming

 

Definition 2 fits this crowd.

[BizarroChuck]

Without a doubt. The stories are great, but the amount of people that walk into comic shops every Wednesday pales in comparison to the number of TV viewers...

 

It's all about exposure, which leads them inevitably back to the source material

 

Yes, if only this were actually true.

 

If only what were true?

 

I was brought into the world of comic collecting after watching the Walking Dead and flipping through a TPB at a Barnes and Noble. I have a buddy who is now just as die hard as I am and I loaned him the Walking Dead TPBs when I found out how much he likes the show.

 

At one point, i did have a copy of TWD 1. I own a copy now of TNMT 1. I have a copy of Sandman 1 signed by NG and SK. So I am proof that people do get into comics (expensive ones) because of movies/TV.

 

TWD isn't even on my pull list anymore, but my collection of silver age kirby/Lee FF is expanding. I read 20+ titles a month. I read an omnibus a month. I love Saga, Sandman, Miracleman, The Incal, Y the Last Man, and Dr. Strange.

 

None of this would have happened without that TV show. I realize that's only one anecdotal story, but there are probably other people here with a similar one. You can't deny people now get into comics via TV/movie exposure. I am living proof!

[rjrjr]

Without a doubt. The stories are great, but the amount of people that walk into comic shops every Wednesday pales in comparison to the number of TV viewers...

 

It's all about exposure, which leads them inevitably back to the source material

 

Yes, if only this were actually true.

 

If only what were true?

 

I was brought into the world of comic collecting after watching the Walking Dead and flipping through a TPB at a Barnes and Noble. I have a buddy who is now just as die hard as I am and I loaned him the Walking Dead TPBs when I found out how much he likes the show.

 

At one point, i did have a copy of TWD 1. I own a copy now of TNMT 1. I have a copy of Sandman 1 signed by NG and SK. So I am proof that people do get into comics (expensive ones) because of movies/TV.

 

TWD isn't even on my pull list anymore, but my collection of silver age kirby/Lee FF is expanding. I read 20+ titles a month. I read an omnibus a month. I love Saga, Sandman, Miracleman, The Incal, Y the Last Man, and Dr. Strange.

 

None of this would have happened without that TV show. I realize that's only one anecdotal story, but there are probably other people here with a similar one. You can't deny people now get into comics via TV/movie exposure. I am living proof!

 

That's terrific! The comic industry picked you up and lost 1-2 other comic collectors in the meantime.

[Garf]

In general (to me) it looks like there is a growing disconnect between speculative enthusiasm for modern comics and the reader / collector enthusiasm at its core... and as more money is poured into the hobby the gap widens. At the moment there is a lot of positive emotion about moderns coming from both sides of the coin which is great for everyone who gets in early but doesn't get too caught up in the stuff that is already hot. I just have my doubts about how well the hobby will age in years to come either in the printed format or as a whole. Collecting while you are earning is ok but kids don't stand a chance on pocket money / allowance alone. Are they going to be able to grab a few decent reads out of back issue boxes either with the current resurgence in interest from the generation that grew up in the 80's / 90's that are raiding and driving those back up? I dunno. Comics seemed a lot more affordable when I started reading them.

 

Fans who are young are more likely to get their superhero fix on a screen rather than in comics... and it could draw them in, but not necessarily to say the comics done by Image which are mostly aimed at an older audience. It's more likely that Spider-Man or X-Men will be more their kind of thing at first. When their tastes change with age then Image and other recent stuff will still have to compete with the established top runs / best reads of all time. Image have produced a handful of really really good books but I don't think the majority of slabs will make any meaningful assault on GA / SA or even the top 100. BizzaroChuck is a great example of how people can easily be drawn to some of the best stuff out there. If you want to think about which moderns still have room to climb then it's mostly going to be the ones that are the best reads. All the really recent titles that are raved about on here haven't even gotten out of the starting blocks yet, some aren't even a year old.

 

Maybe looking to the grittier stuff a lot of us enjoy ourselves is a bit short sighted when it comes to where there is going to be a wave of nostalgia. Take Adventure Time as an example, hugely popular show that a lot of kids are glued to, has its roots in Youtube, internationally broadcast, funny, bursting with imagination, merchandised to the back teeth... and has a comic that offers fresh new stories with those characters. The trades are very popular. I wouldn't be surprised if #1 climbs in years to come. Certainly wouldn't feel bad about selling off a hot variant and then buying an Adventure Time #1a to stick in the back of a long box and forget about. There hasn't been anyone pumping it here or any thread dedicated to it but it's doing really well all by itself and the target audience of the show aren't even the buyers yet.

 

[BizarroChuck]

"Collecting while you are earning is ok but kids don't stand a chance on pocket money / allowance alone. Are they going to be able to grab a few decent reads out of back issue boxes either with the current resurgence in interest from the generation that grew up in the 80's / 90's that are raiding and driving those back up? I dunno. Comics seemed a lot more affordable when I started reading them."

 

Well said Garf. I would guess that "comic book" parents would be the easiest way for kids to become readers. I forget sometimes that a new comic is $3-$4. And when you consider that you can read a comic in 15-20 minutes, that's a high cash to "entertainment time" ratio. Kids with an allowance are probably much more inclined to spend $10 on a movie, or $50 on a game they can play for 100 hours.

 

It's much easier (financially) to read (and definitely to collect) comics as an adult

[Aweandlorder]

Kids read comics?? I never see kids at LCS.. EVER.. If theres a kid hes there cause hes dad's there for his pull list.

Kids watch movies, TVs and play with their iPads/tablet.

[fastballspecial]

Kids read comics?? I never see kids at LCS.. EVER.. If theres a kid hes there cause hes dad's there for his pull list.

Kids watch movies, TVs and play with their iPads/tablet.

 

This is general true, but one of my LCS's host game nights and Friday and Sat nights and the place is packed with kids. Usually between 40 and 70 depending on times. Adults as well, but mostly kids from 10-16 just playing card games like Magic. They pack them in sell them snacks and have been recognized national for their gaming tournaments.

 

They also meander over and buy comics.

 

[the authority]

Kids read comics?? I never see kids at LCS.. EVER.. If theres a kid hes there cause hes dad's there for his pull list.

Kids watch movies, TVs and play with their iPads/tablet.

 

This is general true, but one of my LCS's host game nights and Friday and Sat nights and the place is packed with kids. Usually between 40 and 70 depending on times. Adults as well, but mostly kids from 10-16 just playing card games like Magic. They pack them in sell them snacks and have been recognized national for their gaming tournaments.

 

They also meander over and buy comics.

 

Yep, its a good shop (thumbs u

[Aweandlorder]

Kids read comics?? I never see kids at LCS.. EVER.. If theres a kid hes there cause hes dad's there for his pull list.

Kids watch movies, TVs and play with their iPads/tablet.

 

This is general true, but one of my LCS's host game nights and Friday and Sat nights and the place is packed with kids. Usually between 40 and 70 depending on times. Adults as well, but mostly kids from 10-16 just playing card games like Magic. They pack them in sell them snacks and have been recognized national for their gaming tournaments.

 

They also meander over and buy comics.

 

So you have to have a certain program/activity to motivate kids to come to a comic book store. That pretty much speaks to my point

[the authority]

Kids read comics?? I never see kids at LCS.. EVER.. If theres a kid hes there cause hes dad's there for his pull list.

Kids watch movies, TVs and play with their iPads/tablet.

 

This is general true, but one of my LCS's host game nights and Friday and Sat nights and the place is packed with kids. Usually between 40 and 70 depending on times. Adults as well, but mostly kids from 10-16 just playing card games like Magic. They pack them in sell them snacks and have been recognized national for their gaming tournaments.

 

They also meander over and buy comics.

 

So you have to have a certain program/activity to motivate kids to come to a comic book store. That pretty much speaks to my point

 

 

MTG is very popular with the kids (and me ) for the reason someone mentioned before. It provides HOURS and HOURS of entertainment (assuming it doesn't cause a fistfight) for very little money. Now that I think of it, even the fights are entertaining. If comics caused fights instead of illustrating them, I'm pretty sure the kids would love them too.

[dupont2005]

Kids read comics?? I never see kids at LCS.. EVER.. If theres a kid hes there cause hes dad's there for his pull list.

Kids watch movies, TVs and play with their iPads/tablet.

I see kids at the LCS, but usually it's the parent who is the obvious comic fan. The kids like the characters, and aren't upset to be in a comic store by any means, but they aren't following the latest crossover event either. Dad is. Doesn't mean the love of comics can't be passed down, but you're right. Eight year olds aren't excitedly running to the LCS with the recycle money to buy the new issue of Batman or whatever.

 

But I do see high school kids at the LCS. A lot of them on Wednesday actually. It gets so packed I avoid the store on that day, and I'd say the majority of people in there when I go in look to be teenagers. I feel like the oldest guy in the store on Wednesday, and the youngest (or only) guy in the store on Sunday.

[Aweandlorder]

Yup. My point is theres a distinct difference between buying comics up until as late as the 80s and today. Comic book characters are more popular through movies where they were more popular back then through the books. One hit movie will introduce a popular character to a crowd, young or old, much faster than an ongoing series will.

Living in an age where printed media is becoming less and less lucrative for publishers I think comic books are kicking and manage to cater to both the reader and collector. I don't think that it's dying or going anywhere, I think it created a sustainable entertainment hobby as well as an enjoyable and sometime lucrative collectible industry

[dupont2005]

I don't think modern superhero comics are catering to the reader all that well. Look at the sales. The superhero comic reading community is smaller than ever. Half the comments on any given story or event are complaints, and there isn't a single thread regarding a single Marvel or DC ongoing where someone doesn't call it a perfect jumping off point.

 

Imagine what sales would be like if they relied on selling a good story, like the 1980's and before, instead of selling chase variants and deaths and crossovers. You could probably safely say sales would drop by about 20%. And imagine if there were no constant reboots and renumberings. The annual revenue (reboots and renumberings seem to be just about an annual tradition at this point) would drop significantly.

 

You're right, the intellectual property is more popular than ever in history. Why doesn't that relate to comic sales though?

[the authority]

Some people ( and I'm one of them) think its because the writers are saving their best stuff for their own books and not using it at Marvel or DC.

[SquareChaos]

I don't think modern superhero comics are catering to the reader all that well. Look at the sales. The superhero comic reading community is smaller than ever. Half the comments on any given story or event are complaints, and there isn't a single thread regarding a single Marvel or DC ongoing where someone doesn't call it a perfect jumping off point.

 

Imagine what sales would be like if they relied on selling a good story, like the 1980's and before, instead of selling chase variants and deaths and crossovers. You could probably safely say sales would drop by about 20%. And imagine if there were no constant reboots and renumberings. The annual revenue (reboots and renumberings seem to be just about an annual tradition at this point) would drop significantly.

 

You're right, the intellectual property is more popular than ever in history. Why doesn't that relate to comic sales though?

 

They're putting out what they put out because it sells. When they try something different (Dial H) it is ignored and dies.

[fastballspecial]

Kids read comics?? I never see kids at LCS.. EVER.. If theres a kid hes there cause hes dad's there for his pull list.

Kids watch movies, TVs and play with their iPads/tablet.

 

This is general true, but one of my LCS's host game nights and Friday and Sat nights and the place is packed with kids. Usually between 40 and 70 depending on times. Adults as well, but mostly kids from 10-16 just playing card games like Magic. They pack them in sell them snacks and have been recognized national for their gaming tournaments.

 

They also meander over and buy comics.

 

So you have to have a certain program/activity to motivate kids to come to a comic book store. That pretty much speaks to my point

 

It wasn't disagreement with your point.

 

I was just pointing out how a local shop has overcome the hurdle of todays generation of kids.

 

[dupont2005]

They're putting out what they put out because it sells. When they try something different (Dial H) it is ignored and dies.

To an ever shrinking market. Marvel has to abandon bookstores as a distribution method because it isn't selling. As the comics economy grows, the Big Two marketshare shrinks.

 

 

[dupont2005]

Some people ( and I'm one of them) think its because the writers are saving their best stuff for their own books and not using it at Marvel or DC.

I think a lot of Marvel and DC talent have dreamed about writing Batman or The X-Men their entire lives, and are living the dream. Sure, they'd rather be Kirkman rich, but they know the odds. I also think a lot of writers (and artists) likely don't have the imagination to come up with a good creator owned project, and know it.

 

And, I think even the ones with big indy licensing deal dreams want to put out the best product they can under the circumstances they're in. Marvel and DC's biggest problems aren't bad ideas from writers, but editorial mandates. The crossovers, the events, the deaths and rebirths and reboots and recasting of characters, those are all corporate mandates passed down to writers, on a schedule no less. "We need Q4 to have a multi title event involving these books, and this person has to die. Followed by a twelve issue arc contained within these three titles where the resurrection and return takes place". The "Wolverine can never do this, Superman can never say that, this character can't do that, you can't use these characters in that storyline, you have to use this character in this storyline" stuff is not the fault of writers. It's the fault of the very method these companies go about business.

 

A certain demographic of fans love it. I'd say the majority of fans left reading. But that's a fraction of the number of fans who used to read, and the potential number of fans who might be reading today if the comics weren't so difficult on the reader. They really prefer the kind of customer who buys ten issues and reads none to ten of the customers who buy one issue and expect a good story inside.

 

I'm somebody who used to read super hero comics, until they just became something I couldn't enjoy no matter how hard I tried anymore. I do not think I'm the only one, based on comments made by those on this board who stick to Silver Age superhero comics.

[SquareChaos]

Some people ( and I'm one of them) think its because the writers are saving their best stuff for their own books and not using it at Marvel or DC.

I think a lot of Marvel and DC talent have dreamed about writing Batman or The X-Men their entire lives, and are living the dream. Sure, they'd rather be Kirkman rich, but they know the odds. I also think a lot of writers (and artists) likely don't have the imagination to come up with a good creator owned project, and know it.

 

And, I think even the ones with big indy licensing deal dreams want to put out the best product they can under the circumstances they're in. Marvel and DC's biggest problems aren't bad ideas from writers, but editorial mandates. The crossovers, the events, the deaths and rebirths and reboots and recasting of characters, those are all corporate mandates passed down to writers, on a schedule no less. "We need Q4 to have a multi title event involving these books, and this person has to die. Followed by a twelve issue arc contained within these three titles where the resurrection and return takes place". The "Wolverine can never do this, Superman can never say that, this character can't do that, you can't use these characters in that storyline, you have to use this character in this storyline" stuff is not the fault of writers. It's the fault of the very method these companies go about business.

 

A certain demographic of fans love it. I'd say the majority of fans left reading. But that's a fraction of the number of fans who used to read, and the potential number of fans who might be reading today if the comics weren't so difficult on the reader. They really prefer the kind of customer who buys ten issues and reads none to ten of the customers who buy one issue and expect a good story inside.

 

I'm somebody who used to read super hero comics, until they just became something I couldn't enjoy no matter how hard I tried anymore. I do not think I'm the only one, based on comments made by those on this board who stick to Silver Age superhero comics.

 

What you are talking about is why I no longer read Big Two books... for the most part.

 

You're talking about the fact that instead of attempting to grow a living, breathing, world, they're trying to nurture an IP. I agree with everything you're saying, and have been saying much of it myself for a while.

 

Image is doing it right... for now. However, their creator owned stuff never lasts that long. As I said in a reply elsewhere to a similar discussion, Invincible could run forever... but what else? Manhattan Projects maybe? East of West... maybe? BRPD?

 

Mostly, it is a wasteland of 12 - 60 issue book arcs. They are not creating IP, and that solves one problem, but creates another.