Modern Growth

[SquareChaos]

If Image relied on preserving IP instead of cultivating imaginative new projects they'd still be publishing Youngblood, or be out of business.

 

Or they could have grown their IP into a thriving brand and broken into pop culture awareness? Yeah, doubtful with the relatively poor IP they had, but again, my point is that they need IP to become part of the mainstream pop culture. That is how you get longevity.

 

It isn't like they suddenly have to give up innovative, story driven comics if they do that (Marvel & DC's sin some would say), but it does give them a bit of a lease on life if they ever do hit a rough patch like the one you already mentioned.

 

Of course, if you dismiss the business and bridge-making value of comic book IPs, then I understand your dismissal of what I'm saying.

[dupont2005]

No, I get the value of IP's. I just see the current growth being creator oriented, and the entire appeal of working for Image would probably be ownership of your creation.

 

I think when doing studio work for corporate owned intellectual property you can try your best to make it the best product possible. It helps when the creator (or employee actually) is enthusiastic about the character, but I also believe that no matter how well the intentions of the staff, the very nature of corporate IP involves a certain level of oversight, that I believe to be 100% negative as an influence on the actual product. As good as it is, I believe it could have been better, had the great talented writer and artist used their own product instead of the one assigned to them.

 

The growth isn't in pop culture characters. Well, those characters remain a source of revenue for shareholders, through other forms of media. It doesn't really relate to selling comics though. And if it's a company of creator owned comics, I'm not sure the company gets anything when a comic cuts a movie deal.

 

You see how comic conventions are becoming more about celebrity guests and movie announcements than they are about comics? You're going to see publishers (the ones that focus on IP) being more about movies than comics as well. Marvel, instead of trying to regain marketshare in comics through innovative new distribution and format, through good stories, will make up lost revenue through movies and so fourth. That's a fine plan for a corporate owned multimedia company, but it doesn't really have anything to do with comics.

 

Marvel and DC over the past fifteen years or so have done a fantastic job at selling their IP to non comic readers through video games, cartoons, movies, and TV shows. I don't think they have done a great job at selling comics to those people though. My Facebook feed right now is all about Comicon, thanks to people I know who don't read comics, and aren't even interested in comics. They want to know what the next Marvel movie is, who the next cast member on Game Of Thrones is, or when the new Tekken game is coming out though. Not a single one of them mentioning who won the Eisners of course, because they aren't interested in that. That, I believe, is Marvel's new target audience.

 

And finally, how many great comic book IP's were created before 1965, and how many have been created since? How many of them don't belong to Marvel or DC? How many times has a third publisher attempted a corporate owned superhero universe and failed? Or even studio comics outside the super hero genre? Is it even worth trying?

[500Club]

The Livewire explanation I've heard is that it is a popular cosplay? :shrug: Seems flimsy to me.

 

But yeah, I've said it before too - speculators are selling to speculators. Digital won't explode unless they price it at $1 a book. The comic industry is hurting itself with the current business model of constant events, crossovers, and meaningless story arcs.

 

At the same time, publishers like Image may be hurting themselves by not building sustainable, long term IPs to help them survive during the lean years, and to be a sort of security blanket for people who want to get into the hobby in later years - IPs are an easy entry point. Few people start reading comics via Transmetropolitan - they come for Batman and say for The Authority or Preacher or Watchmen.

They don't need to build IP, they need to build positive relationships with the best talent in the industry. They seem to be working pretty hard at it, my main fear is the larger they get, the less appealing that relationship may become.

 

I think it is pretty clear we disagree on the Image IP topic

Image owns no IP. They are a publisher for creator owned properties. It is the creators who own and develop the IP.

[Lazyboy]

Without a doubt. The stories are great, but the amount of people that walk into comic shops every Wednesday pales in comparison to the number of TV viewers...

 

It's all about exposure, which leads them inevitably back to the source material

 

Really? Then why have I never owned any TMNT comics despite growing up with the cartoon and movies and being a comic collector?

 

I'm certainly aware of them and I've read some, but I have no interest in buying any.

[Lazyboy]

Thats exactly right. Collectors purchase comics while readers buy the digitals. Not to say that collectors couldnt be readers as well..

This is no big news. This happened to music long before comics. More so with vinyl.

Vinyl sales have INCREASED steadily in the past 7 years, whereas digital downloads have DECREASED. Its sure as heck not because music lovers play their LPs on a turntable. Comic book intellectual properties have developed dramatically and are now bigger than life and that just means that collectors take their passion more seriously than before. Back in the golden silver age and even bronze people bought comics with the mindset of reading them only. Now theres an increased awareness of collecting them.

 

Which is why we're here sorta kinda

Do you know anything about music/sound?

[General Zod]

I think a lot of people are overlooking something that's pretty important to modern growth: Making the comics cheap enough for kids. In the 80s, mowing the lawn to get $5/10 was enough to get several books for a month. The same ratio of books would require around $50 today. And as someone else pointed out, that $50 is more likely to be spent on video games.

 

The current price of the floppy today is detrimental to the average budget of a kid. The only real way a kid can become an avid reader of comic books is to dive into $1 books in the bargain bin long boxes now. "Well, what about keeping up with current events?" Well, too bad, says the comic book publishers.

[SquareChaos]

I think a lot of people are overlooking something that's pretty important to modern growth: Making the comics cheap enough for kids. In the 80s, mowing the lawn to get $5/10 was enough to get several books for a month. The same ratio of books would require around $50 today. And as someone else pointed out, that $50 is more likely to be spent on video games.

 

The current price of the floppy today is detrimental to the average budget of a kid. The only real way a kid can become an avid reader of comic books is to dive into $1 books in the bargain bin long boxes now. "Well, what about keeping up with current events?" Well, too bad, says the comic book publishers.

 

Trades and Marvel Unlimited are the only real solutions to that.

 

You're then reading 6 months behind minimum.

[SquareChaos]

The Livewire explanation I've heard is that it is a popular cosplay? :shrug: Seems flimsy to me.

 

But yeah, I've said it before too - speculators are selling to speculators. Digital won't explode unless they price it at $1 a book. The comic industry is hurting itself with the current business model of constant events, crossovers, and meaningless story arcs.

 

At the same time, publishers like Image may be hurting themselves by not building sustainable, long term IPs to help them survive during the lean years, and to be a sort of security blanket for people who want to get into the hobby in later years - IPs are an easy entry point. Few people start reading comics via Transmetropolitan - they come for Batman and say for The Authority or Preacher or Watchmen.

They don't need to build IP, they need to build positive relationships with the best talent in the industry. They seem to be working pretty hard at it, my main fear is the larger they get, the less appealing that relationship may become.

 

I think it is pretty clear we disagree on the Image IP topic

Image owns no IP. They are a publisher for creator owned properties. It is the creators who own and develop the IP.

 

I know. And I don't think they need to 'own' it, just have the rights to publish it. I'll be interested to see what happens to, say, Spawn after TM is gone. Assuming he doesn't outlive me

[BizarroChuck]

Without a doubt. The stories are great, but the amount of people that walk into comic shops every Wednesday pales in comparison to the number of TV viewers...

 

It's all about exposure, which leads them inevitably back to the source material

 

Really? Then why have I never owned any TMNT comics despite growing up with the cartoon and movies and being a comic collector?

 

I'm certainly aware of them and I've read some, but I have no interest in buying any.

 

Well it's what happened to me. I guess I should have prefaced it with "This is anecdotal."

[Aweandlorder]

Thats exactly right. Collectors purchase comics while readers buy the digitals. Not to say that collectors couldnt be readers as well..

This is no big news. This happened to music long before comics. More so with vinyl.

Vinyl sales have INCREASED steadily in the past 7 years, whereas digital downloads have DECREASED. Its sure as heck not because music lovers play their LPs on a turntable. Comic book intellectual properties have developed dramatically and are now bigger than life and that just means that collectors take their passion more seriously than before. Back in the golden silver age and even bronze people bought comics with the mindset of reading them only. Now theres an increased awareness of collecting them.

 

Which is why we're here sorta kinda

Do you know anything about music/sound?

 

I ran a DIY label for over a decade, officially remixed over 20 chart topping artists, manage a music rehearsal facility in NYC and A&R'd for Atlantic Urban for a short while.

No I do not know anything about music. I know everything about music.

Im also very modest as you can see

 

[Lazyboy]

Thats exactly right. Collectors purchase comics while readers buy the digitals. Not to say that collectors couldnt be readers as well..

This is no big news. This happened to music long before comics. More so with vinyl.

Vinyl sales have INCREASED steadily in the past 7 years, whereas digital downloads have DECREASED. Its sure as heck not because music lovers play their LPs on a turntable. Comic book intellectual properties have developed dramatically and are now bigger than life and that just means that collectors take their passion more seriously than before. Back in the golden silver age and even bronze people bought comics with the mindset of reading them only. Now theres an increased awareness of collecting them.

 

Which is why we're here sorta kinda

Do you know anything about music/sound?

 

I ran a DIY label for over a decade, officially remixed over 20 chart topping artists, manage a music rehearsal facility in NYC and A&R'd for Atlantic Urban for a short while.

No I do not know anything about music. I know everything about music.

Im also very modest as you can see

Yet you think music lovers don't play their LPs and the increase in vinyl sales has nothing to do with sound quality?

[Lazyboy]

Without a doubt. The stories are great, but the amount of people that walk into comic shops every Wednesday pales in comparison to the number of TV viewers...

 

It's all about exposure, which leads them inevitably back to the source material

 

Really? Then why have I never owned any TMNT comics despite growing up with the cartoon and movies and being a comic collector?

 

I'm certainly aware of them and I've read some, but I have no interest in buying any.

 

Well it's what happened to me. I guess I should have prefaced it with "This is anecdotal."

Certainly some people seek out the original sources of adaptations they enjoy. My issue was really with the use of the word "inevitably" in your post.

[Aweandlorder]

Thats exactly right. Collectors purchase comics while readers buy the digitals. Not to say that collectors couldnt be readers as well..

This is no big news. This happened to music long before comics. More so with vinyl.

Vinyl sales have INCREASED steadily in the past 7 years, whereas digital downloads have DECREASED. Its sure as heck not because music lovers play their LPs on a turntable. Comic book intellectual properties have developed dramatically and are now bigger than life and that just means that collectors take their passion more seriously than before. Back in the golden silver age and even bronze people bought comics with the mindset of reading them only. Now theres an increased awareness of collecting them.

 

Which is why we're here sorta kinda

Do you know anything about music/sound?

 

I ran a DIY label for over a decade, officially remixed over 20 chart topping artists, manage a music rehearsal facility in NYC and A&R'd for Atlantic Urban for a short while.

No I do not know anything about music. I know everything about music.

Im also very modest as you can see

Yet you think music lovers don't play their LPs and the increase in vinyl sales has nothing to do with sound quality?

Of course it has nothing to do with it. The Digital vs Analog debate is long dead my friend. Collectors are the reasons why vinyl sales shot through the roof in recent years and die hard vinyl collectors do not DARE to crack open a sealed LP/12" let alone play the record. To them that is the equivalent of us slabbing a book. 90% of industry DJs play digital (not including turntablists obviously, although some of those numbers are shifting as well due to integrated systems).

There is a reason why I chose to bring this topic in comparison to comic book collecting. Emphasis on the word collecting. We now live in an era where collectors value a hard copy more so than a reader/playable copy than ever before, and thats thanks to brilliant marketing/packaging, and a loooooong long history in established artists/labels and appreciation from fans. And when I say value, I literally mean it. Sure we can see how many new comics sold on a monthly basis thanks to the Diamond comics order list, but do we know what the used/collectible market bring in monthly? Buyers/readers/speculators use the same shopping outlets to order their books. We also get to sell collectibles much easier than before. Its a great time to own comics, whether you're a collector/reader/speculator.

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

Thats exactly right. Collectors purchase comics while readers buy the digitals. Not to say that collectors couldnt be readers as well..

This is no big news. This happened to music long before comics. More so with vinyl.

Vinyl sales have INCREASED steadily in the past 7 years, whereas digital downloads have DECREASED. Its sure as heck not because music lovers play their LPs on a turntable. Comic book intellectual properties have developed dramatically and are now bigger than life and that just means that collectors take their passion more seriously than before. Back in the golden silver age and even bronze people bought comics with the mindset of reading them only. Now theres an increased awareness of collecting them.

 

Which is why we're here sorta kinda

Do you know anything about music/sound?

 

I ran a DIY label for over a decade, officially remixed over 20 chart topping artists, manage a music rehearsal facility in NYC and A&R'd for Atlantic Urban for a short while.

No I do not know anything about music. I know everything about music.

Im also very modest as you can see

Yet you think music lovers don't play their LPs and the increase in vinyl sales has nothing to do with sound quality?

Of course it has nothing to do with it. The Digital vs Analog debate is long dead my friend. Collectors are the reasons why vinyl sales shot through the roof in recent years and die hard vinyl collectors do not DARE to crack open a sealed LP/12" let alone play the record. To them that is the equivalent of us slabbing a book. 90% of industry DJs play digital (not including turntablists obviously, although some of those numbers are shifting as well due to integrated systems).

 

Considering your background, you have a poor grasp of what drives the consumer. I'm one of those 'vinyl junkies' and the biggest reason for buying a slab of black plastic is because of the overwhelming superiority of sound quality. Case in point, the rise of the 180 gram market is based solely on sound quality, which obviously requires the bloody things to be played!

 

If video killed the radio star, surely it was only going to be a matter of time before digital murdered vinyl?

 

But instead of being smashed into a million pieces, the long-playing record has been given a new lease of life – and its saviour is an unlikely source: its expected tormentor.

 

According to those in the industry, rather than crushing vinyl to a pulp as promised by various doom merchants, the digital music revolution has, in fact, given LPs a much-needed boost.

 

‘What we’ve found, if anything, is that digital music – download and streaming – has led to the growth in vinyl sales because they’re very complimentary formats,’ said Stephen Godfroy, co-owner of Rough Trade, which has two music stores in London and has just opened another in New York.

 

‘We’ve always sold a lot of vinyl at Rough Trade but we’ve had a polarising of the music formats. The disposable nature of digital music tends to add more value to music as an artefact, and vinyl – being the quintessential example of music as an artefact – is benefitting from that.’

 

In this environment, music downloads become a taste test, in that listeners browse online and then purchase or stream a few sample songs. Then, if they like what they hear and want to explore further, they may buy an album on vinyl. New technology and new listening habits are having a positive effect on an old format. The numbers speak for themselves. According to figures released last week by the British Phonographic Industry (BPI) and the Official Charts Company, sales of LP albums increased by 101 per cent in 2013.

 

Almost 800,000 vinyl albums were sold last year, making it the best for the format since 1997. In contrast, the slump in CD sales in Britain continues, falling almost 13 per cent last year. CDs still make up almost two thirds of music sales volume, while LPs account for less than one per cent, but the signs for vinyl are encouraging. Digital music sales, meanwhile, grew by almost seven per cent last year and now make up more than a third of the market.

 

BPI spokeswoman Lynne McDowell said albums by David Bowie, Daft Punk, Arctic Monkeys and Black Sabbath last year had helped vinyl sales soar, along with increasing availability of LPs in various retailers and the success of Record Store Day.

 

‘Whilst vinyl accounts for a relatively small percentage of overall music sales, it is very much a fast-growing niche,’ she said. ‘Vinyl seems to cast a spell over music fans who want to experience the fullness of an artist’s creation in the artwork and liner notes in a way that CDs possibly do not – there is a definite vinyl culture that generates a unique affiliation between fans and the format.’

 

Vinyl and downloads may appear unlikely musical bedfellows but there is another trend which upsets a once widely-held wisdom in the industry.

 

The vinyl market isn’t growing because of collectors who have been buying LPs since the 1960s and 1970s – although that group remains a contributing minority – but thanks to a new generation of listeners. Popular music has always been defined by what the kids want to hear, so it makes sense that they also dictate which formats are prominent.

 

MORE: Free digital downloads are helping the resurgence of the vinyl LP

 

‘There are a lot of people who’ve never fallen out of love with vinyl,’ said Godfroy, ‘but it is the younger generation who are driving this growth in vinyl sales.

 

‘The majority of vinyl is purchased by those who are young – 25 and under – it seems to be the younger generations that are seeking out the vinyl to make their more treasured purchases. They are engaged with music on many levels – they see it as sort of an ecosystem – so they stream on their phone one minute and equally buy a record the next. What we’re seeing are the first throes of the post-digital landscape.’

 

Godfroy believes both formats can co-exist as they are at opposite ends of the listening spectrum.

 

‘With digital, the value is really in its convenience and the immediacy of its delivery and the fact you can play it while doing something else,’ he said.

 

‘There’s a ceremony to playing a record, it requires more dedicated listening. If you’re a particular fan of an album you will tend to purchase that release on a record because you get so much more value from it.’

 

Records are predominantly bought by existing fans, he said, adding that Rough Trade’s biggest seller on vinyl last year was John Grant’s album, Pale Green Ghosts.

 

But the demand for vinyl is even greater in the US – since Rough Trade’s New York store opened in November, it has been outselling its London counterparts in the LP format. Figures released by market researchers Nielsen in the past few days show that digital sales in the US have declined slightly, while vinyl album sales have gone from 4.5m in 2012 to 6m last year. Vinyl in the US represents two per cent of overall album sales. The format offers listeners an experience unmatched by downloads or CDs, said Godfroy.

 

‘There are qualities to a vinyl release that certainly can’t be found on other things in terms of the audio quality, the visual quality, the added content. We’re humans. We like to touch things. There is a fantastic sense of value you get from actually having music physically, despite what the headlines might say that all the world’s going digital.’

 

The future for vinyl remains bright, insists McDowell. She said: ‘With its renewed appeal to an engaged audience of both younger artists and younger consumers, we can expect more records to be produced on the format and more LPs to be snapped up by avid music fans who appreciate its iconic heritage as part of rock and pop culture.’

[Aweandlorder]

Considering your background, you have a poor grasp of what drives the consumer. I'm one of those 'vinyl junkies' and the biggest reason for buying a slab of black plastic is because of the overwhelming superiority of sound quality. Case in point, the rise of the 180 gram market is based solely on sound quality, which obviously requires the bloody things to be played!

 

Not going there my friend. For the sake of this board, lets just RESPECTFULLY agree to keep this thread ON TOPIC

 

 

[awakeintheashes]

[Lazyboy]

Considering your background, you have a poor grasp of what drives the consumer. I'm one of those 'vinyl junkies' and the biggest reason for buying a slab of black plastic is because of the overwhelming superiority of sound quality. Case in point, the rise of the 180 gram market is based solely on sound quality, which obviously requires the bloody things to be played!

 

Not going there my friend. For the sake of this board, lets just RESPECTFULLY agree to keep this thread ON TOPIC

 

Keeping threads on topic is against the CGC board rules.

 

But we'll accept your concession.

[General Zod]

I think a lot of people are overlooking something that's pretty important to modern growth: Making the comics cheap enough for kids. In the 80s, mowing the lawn to get $5/10 was enough to get several books for a month. The same ratio of books would require around $50 today. And as someone else pointed out, that $50 is more likely to be spent on video games.

 

The current price of the floppy today is detrimental to the average budget of a kid. The only real way a kid can become an avid reader of comic books is to dive into $1 books in the bargain bin long boxes now. "Well, what about keeping up with current events?" Well, too bad, says the comic book publishers.

 

Trades and Marvel Unlimited are the only real solutions to that.

 

You're then reading 6 months behind minimum.

 

RIP the affordable floppy.

[Lonzilla]

Vinyl just sounds better and in my opinion, mono sounds better than stereo if you're talking old Motown, Johnny Cash, Beatles. Gotta say, I'm not a Beatles fan but a friend played his mono "White Album" LP for me and it was like the first time I ever heard it, so different.

I used to have a huge punk record collection with original Misfits and Minor Threat 7" EPS, alot of obscure UK oi, one-and-done bands, the rare "Killed By Death" stuff, I sold it to pay rent and bills, not for smack (I'm the only one).

Punk and hardcore vinyl collectors are like those who seek out key 1st appearances and RRPs slabbed, there's a LOT of bragging rights in the collector community, you have no idea!