Avengers 118 cover in Heritage….

[glenbru]

Just saw this in the upcoming Heritage auction for November. I'm wondering if the vellum will turn off some bidders or if this will go for a big number like some of the more recent Avengers OA we've been seeing…

 

Stunning image!

 

Thoughts?

 

http://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/john-romita-sr-avengers-118-cover-original-art-marvel-1973-/p/7099-24037.s

 

 

[glenbru]

The thing that keeps running through my mind after seeing yesterday's Avengers 72 cover at Heritage hammer at 90k is…I wish I had bought more Avengers covers. They've been undervalued for years!

[suspense39]

Much like the comics were, then in the early 2000's they started taking off. I'm glad Don Heck avengers art was fairly strong, one of the best in the mid sixties.....and he never really gets credit for his contributions, black widow, hawkeye etc.

[Ironmandrd]

The thing that keeps running through my mind after seeing yesterday's Avengers 72 cover at Heritage hammer at 90k isI wish I had bought more Avengers covers. They've been undervalued for years!

 

With all due respect to your view and to the folks who are bidding on these Avengers pieces up to those amounts, I don't think that the Avengers covers have been as undervalued as much as that the Avengers #72 and the Avengers #81 splash are abnormally high results (due to a variety of potential reasons. And notwithstanding the vellum factor, in my view, the Avengers #118 won't be a good representative Avengers cover towards the discussion of the extent of an Avengers bump--its not a typical Avengers cover given its the highlight cover in the Avengers/Defenders crossover, an event viewed by many as historical and therefore premium-worthy by that fact alone.

 

 

[glenbru]

Well I think these are all factors. There's the Avengers bump. I think the Avengers 72 result confirms that there is currently an Avengers bump for good Avengers material. I was actually asked today if an Avengers cover in my collection might be for sale at a number that surprised me. I did, however, fail to mention the Avg/Defenders war--this being perhaps the best cover from that run--another factor that could give the cover a major bump. But I am wondering if these factors will overshadow the fact that the cover is on vellum which does cause many collectors to stay away from bidding at higher levels.

[glenbru]

I should add that a few years ago I had the Avengers 106 and 108 covers by Buckler. I had trouble giving them away at 12k and 15k respectively. I don't think they'd have much trouble selling at much MUCH higher numbers now.

[stinkininkin]

Unless a piece has egregious condition problems, I don't usually care what state a piece of OA is in, but I would personally probably never buy a vellum cover, even if it was for a piece I coveted. Seems like Romita Sr was the only one who regularly used this technique, so Mike Burkey would probably be better suited through experience to opine whether other collectors are as turned off by Vellum as I am.

 

Nice cover for sure, even though this is my least favorite period of Avengers, Defenders crossover or no.

 

Scott

[batman_fan]

Unless a piece has egregious condition problems, I don't usually care what state a piece of OA is in, but I would personally probably never buy a vellum cover, even if it was for a piece I coveted. Seems like Romita Sr was the only one who regularly used this technique, so Mike Burkey would probably be better suited through experience to determine if other collectors are as turned off by Vellum as I am.

 

Nice cover for sure, even though this is my least favorite period of Avengers, Defenders crossover or no.

 

Scott

 

Put me in the camp that isn't a fan of the vellum as well.

[stinkininkin]

The thing that keeps running through my mind after seeing yesterday's Avengers 72 cover at Heritage hammer at 90k is…I wish I had bought more Avengers covers. They've been undervalued for years!

 

And now I am even more regretful that I had the Neal Adams Avengers 93 cover slip through my fingers. I guess if you've collected long enough, you will have your fair share of regrets.

 

Scott

 

 

[glenbru]

I'm curious why you feel that way Scott. My understanding about vellum is that it's durable and more stable than bristol as an archival piece.

[tth2]

I'm wondering if the vellum will turn off some bidders

What`s the problem with vellum?

[stinkininkin]

I'm curious why you feel that way Scott. My understanding about vellum is that it's durable and more stable than bristol as an archival piece.

 

I have no knowledge of it's archival durability, so that's not a factor for me one way or the other.

 

But it is thin and flimsy feeling and looking. It just doesn't seem as substantial as bristol. Because it's not.

 

And of course, there is the matter of vellum bearing only the inkers work. Now, as you might imagine, I highly value the inkers contributions, but all other things being equal, I'd much rather have had both the penciller and inker work on the same board. Yes, I know the inker erases the graphite upon completion, but it's rarely completely erased. Smudges and notes and graphite grooves are all part of the charm of an original and it's part of the tradition and heritage that I love. I just like what I like, and I like pencils and inks on bristol.

Scott

[stinkininkin]

I'm curious why you feel that way Scott. My understanding about vellum is that it's durable and more stable than bristol as an archival piece.

 

I have no knowledge of it's archival durability, so that's not a factor for me one way or the other.

 

But it is thin and flimsy feeling and looking. It just doesn't seem as substantial as bristol. Because it's not.

 

And of course, there is the matter of vellum bearing only the inkers work. Now, as you might imagine, I highly value the inkers contributions, but all other things being equal, I'd much rather have had both the penciller and inker work on the same board. Yes, I know the inker erases the graphite upon completion, but it's rarely completely erased. Smudges and notes and graphite grooves are all part of the charm of an original and it's part of the tradition and heritage that I love. I just like what I like, and I like pencils and inks on bristol.

Scott

 

And for what it's worth, I've inked on vellum a bunch of times, mostly over Jose Garcia Lopez for DC licensing material. I kept a lot of those vellum inks, and over time, they do seem to wrinkle and warp. I'm sure there are different types and grades of vellum, and I have no idea what they used "back in the day" or if was superior to what I've used. But from my limited hands on experience, vellum is yuck.

 

Scott

[glenbru]

Fair enough, Scott.

 

Some of the vellum covers I've seen have been glued down and the glue creates a brownish stain that looks bad. A good restorer can generally clean the stain and put the vellum back so it has a clean appearance. When it's clean and the vellum is a good color it can almost have the same appeal as a board cover. The downside for me has always been that the resale tends to be lower on vellum covers since a portion of the collector base won't buy them. I don't want to tie up a large chunk of money in a piece that's harder to move down the line. But I have seen some good looking vellum covers and still do own one myself.

[DocR]

Fair enough, Scott.

 

Some of the vellum covers I've seen have been glued down and the glue creates a brownish stain that looks bad. A good restorer can generally clean the stain and put the vellum back so it has a clean appearance. When it's clean and the vellum is a good color it can almost have the same appeal as a board cover. The downside for me has always been that the resale tends to be lower on vellum covers since a portion of the collector base won't buy them. I don't want to tie up a large chunk of money in a piece that's harder to move down the line. But I have seen some good looking vellum covers and still do own one myself.

 

I think on this particular cover any Vellum hangups are going to be completely overwhelmed by the positives of this cover. Avengers/Defenders war finale, First real crossover in Marvel comics, Romita Sr, an amazing image of both teams bursting off the page, the restoration has already been done for you.

 

Full disclosure I have the splash for this issue and if this cover ended up anywhere in my realm I would make a very serious run at it but I'm sure this is going to go for huge dollars and I think will beat the Avengers cover from this past auction.

[heartened]

I owned a Romita vellum cover at one point, and overall the look is not what I've come to love - and they tend to yellow over time and not look as crisp. That being said, if it's a cover from a run that you have to have, then it's your only choice. But it is true that it eliminates a good portion of the buying pool down the line, should you sell. It is unfortunate, but true. Over time, when there is less material out there, and beggers can't be choosers, these differences may make less impact, but for now vellum still gets a diss. I do think some of the hangups we have in this hobby are going to disappear over time - vellum may not be such a problem, art cut to the image will be tolerated, large art will not have a premium over small art, etc. etc. As the hobby expands beyond the fanboy circle, some of these things may disappear, and probably rightly so as much of it is artificial things we nit pick on.

[markseifert]

I'm sure there are different types and grades of vellum, and I have no idea what they used "back in the day" or if was superior to what I've used. But from my limited hands on experience, vellum is yuck.

 

As someone who has handled his fair share of vellum during comic production, I'd agree with that sentiment exactly.

[Nexus]

For sellers who like using outlier auction results as comps for their inventory, this will be a no-lose situation, thanks to the vellum. If this auction is perceived to have underperformed...well, of course, it was vellum's fault. If it does well, or even exceeds expectations, then imagine how much better it would have done if it wasn't for the vellum!

 

In terms of the overall AVENGERS market, I'm of the same view as ironmandrd.

[DocR]

For sellers who like using outlier auction results as comps for their inventory, this will be a no-lose situation, thanks to the vellum. If this auction is perceived to have underperformed...well, of course, it was vellum's fault. If it does well, or even exceeds expectations, then imagine how much better it would have done if it wasn't for the vellum!

 

In terms of the overall AVENGERS market, I'm of the same view as ironmandrd.

 

Well what are the expectations for it? Avengers especially has been crazy these last few auctions. Don't know what to expect anymore.

[glenbru]

Over time, when there is less material out there, and beggers can't be choosers, these differences may make less impact, but for now vellum still gets a diss. I do think some of the hangups we have in this hobby are going to disappear over time - vellum may not be such a problem, art cut to the image will be tolerated, large art will not have a premium over small art, etc. etc. As the hobby expands beyond the fanboy circle, some of these things may disappear, and probably rightly so as much of it is artificial things we nit pick on.

 

I think this makes a lot of sense, Hari. We've already seen less of a division on the small vs large debate where image wins out. If we look at the Avengers 72 result and compare it to the Avengers 42 cover result a few Heritage auctions back through old school eyes this is a perfect example of Image trumping size where the reverse would have been expected in the past.