Great New York Times story on art flipping

[lb jefferies]

I have mixed feelings about Koons

I thoroughly enjoy most of the artists you listed - especially Bacon and DeKooning - but I have zero time for Koons. A perfect example of someone playing the system like a master fiddler.

 

 

[vodou]

And now my regret is manifest. You pretty much missed everything I was trying to articulate. Zero condescension on my part. On your part however...ugh. No "thanks," Matthew. Le'ts try hammer to nail instead. "Getting" does not equal bigger brain (longform, since I'm not even smart enough to do the old = sign with a strikethrough!)

[Overthetopinc]

Bronty I agree with ya on the fact that art history has to be considered but Jack Kirby did in fact do all of what Kirby did as we know. Because this artist has not done for her genre of art what Jack Kirby did for comics how can you compare the two? Also to be quite frank its only history because it sold for big bucks. If it went for 2k you still would have no idea that a dirty bed would be considered art history.

[Bronty]

Can't we all just get along?

 

Matthew is definitely one of the guys who likes representation only and that's fine. And yet. What would I assume he would pay more for, a Bisley cover he fondly remembers or a Bisley interior of equal quality? The cover, of course, and therefore, if I am right in my assumption Matthew and guys like him and yes myself aren't simply paying for representational pictures they are also placing value depending on context. They (we) just have a hard time understanding that their behaviour / buying process is really no different because stripped of context they (we?) see only the ridiculous

[Overthetopinc]

When someone says something that one reflects on of which none is probably more so the case then artwork and says you dont get it I take it as an offense. I am stupid because all I see is a bed but you on the other hand "get it". Maybe thats a routine response when you applaud this kinda work for you but I take it as an insult no matter how you tell me it was not meant to be.

[Bronty]

Bronty I agree with ya on the fact that art history has to be considered but Jack Kirby did in fact do all of what Kirby did as we know. Because this artist has not done for her genre of art what Jack Kirby did for comics how can you compare the two? Also to be quite frank its only history because it sold for big bucks. If it went for 2k you still would have no idea that a dirty bed would be considered art history.

 

Hi Matt,

 

How can I compare the two, well, why can't I? I mean if you want I can compare it to say the cover art of hulk 271 - awkward and ridiculous and worth nothing a year ago but would now have value due to the first (?) appearance of a raccoon with a gun? Objectively that's as retarted as paying 4m for a bed the only difference being scale

 

 

[Overthetopinc]

Hey Bronty,

I actually collect all kinds of artwork. I have an extensive chess collection that compromises of almost all hand made(sculptures)pieces among other things. As for Biz that is not the case for me at all. Bisley did many pieces that were not covers not even published that I have paid and offered more for then others that some may consider are my best pieces of his. I am totally not one of those people who have some kind of guideline to how I value the art. It either hits me or it doesnt.

thanks,

Matthew

[Overthetopinc]

Nah I have no idea what the piece was worth then or worth now but when a movie latches on to it and its Good cmon. All new fans. The movie brings the characters to life for some people. Anyways how can you compare that to this bed? I am clueless on how to even respond.

[Bronty]

When someone says something that one reflects on of which none is probably more so the case then artwork and says you dont get it I take it as an offense. I am stupid because all I see is a bed but you on the other hand "get it". Maybe thats a routine response when you applaud this kinda work for you but I take it as an insult no matter how you tell me it was not meant to be.

 

I'm not sure if that's at aelhra or me but honestly, there's no sense on this thread that I can tell of representation only being inferior. Id certainly rather hang a picture on the wall than an idea.

 

If I had to guess Matt Id say you are a smart guy and don't get how a smart guy like you might not "get it" and that therefore it has to be a big put-on. Well, when aelhra talked about getting it he is talking about knowledge (of art history, of context) NOT of intelligence. Everybody here (well almost everybody is bright, it is NOT an intelligence competition as to who "gets it." Just like knowing who ditko and Kirby were is not intelligence, just knowledge.

 

Now post some more biz

[vodou]

If it went for 2k you still would have no idea that a dirty bed would be considered art history.

Emin's bed was considered substantial art by popular commenters before Saatchi purchased it. The old articles etc are out there in the contemporary literature back in the day and probably findable with some google work (which I'm too lazy to do). And that was long before it was "big bucks". There is certainly more than a dose of art con present in every auction, every catalog, every dealer's inventory. But it's not all art con. The astute practiced eye, with a bit huckster thrown in too for the eventual cashout, will always pick the best one or two pieces out an artist's early shows or studio visits. And ignore so many other artists altogether too. And this is different from comics OA (or just about anything collected), the flippers, and dealers, exactly how?? Example: the crowd that gushes over comics OA from the 90s-present is growing daily, subject matter I'll never "get". Never. That pre and post Image busy-ness, no word balloons, all the rest that others complain about (but which I don't remember ever seeing any champions of?) And I know I'm in the wrong too, but I just don't care. There's plenty of art for everyone, so I can ignorantly continue to specialize in earlier or other stuff altogether and never be worse for the wear.

 

The reality that Gene reminds us regularly of is that most $2k contemporary pieces aren't even worth $2k nominally twenty years later. Or maybe just break even, a loss in purchasing power terms against inflation. Some of those artists and works were art con too, but some weren't, they just got passed over or will only "make it" many years later when some context is applied that more than three people are willing to pay for! And some, never.

 

I've always enjoyed that Banksy image, cheeky b@stard that he is. Good fun fer sure.

 

PS - I don't "get" the bed either. (And surely wouldn't buy it!) But I don't have to hate it. I know if I put the time in, I could, but the interest in Emin and YBA isn't there for me, same as 90s-present comic OA. Life is too short!

[Bronty]

Hey Bronty,

I actually collect all kinds of artwork. I have an extensive chess collection that compromises of almost all hand made(sculptures)pieces among other things. As for Biz that is not the case for me at all. Bisley did many pieces that were not covers not even published that I have paid and offered more for then others that some may consider are my best pieces of his. I am totally not one of those people who have some kind of guideline to how I value the art. It either hits me or it doesnt.

thanks,

Matthew

 

(thumbs u

 

Please understand that I am just trying to explain to you the different way if thinking as I've had the same thoughts as you. Whether you pay more or less for biz covers or collect chess pieces is cool but almost besides the point - the point being that the comic OA market is at least as ridiculous (and utterly context dependent) as the fine art market, but guys like you and me can accept the one easier than the other due to familiarity

[Overthetopinc]

Your other post might have some truth to it. I was going to do some brain games and respond but there is no need I said my piece and just felt kinda amped up today so I apologize for bringing it to this board where I respect you Bronty and everyone else on this thread. And like you said there will be no conversion here so I will go back to posting more cool Biz pics =)

Ya that Banksy is great. Always loved it.

thanks,

Matthew

[Bronty]

Your other post might have some truth to it. I was going to do some brain games and respond but there is no need I said my piece and just felt kinda amped up today so I apologize for bringing it to this board where I respect you Bronty and everyone else on this thread. And like you said there will be no conversion here so I will go back to posting more cool Biz pics =)

Ya that Banksy is great. Always loved it.

thanks,

Matthew

 

Respect you too and love your collection as well (thumbs u

[adamstrange]

When someone says something that one reflects on of which none is probably more so the case then artwork and says you dont get it I take it as an offense. I am stupid because all I see is a bed but you on the other hand "get it". Maybe thats a routine response when you applaud this kinda work for you but I take it as an insult no matter how you tell me it was not meant to be.

 

I'm not sure if that's at aelhra or me but honestly, there's no sense on this thread that I can tell of representation only being inferior. Id certainly rather hang a picture on the wall than an idea.

 

If I had to guess Matt Id say you are a smart guy and don't get how a smart guy like you might not "get it" and that therefore it has to be a big put-on. Well, when aelhra talked about getting it he is talking about knowledge (of art history, of context) NOT of intelligence.

It's because I understand art history and the context of this piece that I understand its relationship to art.

[Bronty]

When someone says something that one reflects on of which none is probably more so the case then artwork and says you dont get it I take it as an offense. I am stupid because all I see is a bed but you on the other hand "get it". Maybe thats a routine response when you applaud this kinda work for you but I take it as an insult no matter how you tell me it was not meant to be.

 

I'm not sure if that's at aelhra or me but honestly, there's no sense on this thread that I can tell of representation only being inferior. Id certainly rather hang a picture on the wall than an idea.

 

If I had to guess Matt Id say you are a smart guy and don't get how a smart guy like you might not "get it" and that therefore it has to be a big put-on. Well, when aelhra talked about getting it he is talking about knowledge (of art history, of context) NOT of intelligence.

It's because I understand art history and the context of this piece that I understand its relationship to art.

 

I'll trade you a messy bed of my choosing for those white mountain pre heroes you have

[adamstrange]

I'll give that offer all of the thought and attention it deserves.

[Bronty]

I'll give that offer all of the thought and attention it deserves.

 

I think you should do it, because no one has ever done it before. Therefore, it must be art

[Terry Doyle]

Found this write-up on the internet (the bit about the two performance artists had me in stitches!):

 

"The artwork generated considerable media furore, particularly over the fact that the bedsheets were stained with bodily secretions and the floor had items from the artist's room (such as condoms, a pair of knickers with menstrual period stains, other detritus, and functional, everyday objects, including a pair of slippers). The bed was presented in the state that Emin claimed it had been when she said she had not got up from it for several days due to suicidal depression brought on by relationship difficulties.

 

Two performance artists, Yuan Chai and Jian Jun Xi, jumped on the bed with bare torsos in order to improve the work, which they thought had not gone far enough. They called their performance Two Naked Men Jump into Tracey's Bed. The men also had a pillow fight on the bed for around fifteen minutes, to applause from the crowd, before being removed by security guards. The artists were detained but no further action was taken. Prior to its Tate Gallery showing, the work had appeared elsewhere, including Japan, where there were variant surroundings, including at one stage a hangman's noose hanging over the bed. This was not present when it was displayed at the Tate.

 

Craig Brown wrote a satirical piece about My Bed for Private Eye entitled My Turd. Emin's former boyfriend, former Stuckist artist Billy Childish, stated that he also had an old bed of hers in the shed which he would make available for £20,000."

[Bronty]

So who won the pillow fight?

 

I hate it when reporting is sloppy

[Terry Doyle]

So who won the pillow fight?

 

I hate it when reporting is sloppy

 

Tracie was the ultimate winner . . . the feathers must have boosted value by a few million $$$s.

 

Another interesting link:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3578654/Way-of-the-World.html