Spider-Woman isn't good for women when she looks like this

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

 

Milo Manara has drawn that Spider-Woman image from a different angle…

 

“Given that some people have seen, or pretended to see, my Spider-Woman in a gynaecological position, I’m sending this sketch to show how, from another angle, it is a posture that has a sense that is not necessarily erotic or pornographic . I would be grateful if you could incorporate this sketch into the debate.”

 

Fair enough Milo. But I think it’s not going to make much difference.

He thinks this is supposed to help shoot down the critics?

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Yeah, something seems different, don't you think?

 

 

Dupont, a great juxtapose that explains the problem exactly. The photo is a real human. Sexy, yes, but definitely real. The art on the other hand is ridiculous in comparison.

 

Couldn't help but notice we have another paraplegic drawing? Who thinks these cut off legs look correct?

I think the word you're looking for is "amputee"

 

A paraplegic still has limbs, just no feeling in them.

[dupont2005]

'Confusion' is in the eye-of-the-beholder as much as either beauty or offense.

It's no coincidence that nearly the entire population of women on the planet find these comics to be unreadable garbage.

Ok, I'm out. (thumbs u I didn't realize you were speaking for "nearly the entire population of women on the planet."

They spoke with their wallets, by not buying comics. And with their words, in the hundreds upon hundreds of articles and comments regarding this very topic. If females make up five percent of comic readership, and there's thirty thousand Marvel readers, that means fifteen hundred of them are women. Five hundred of them (a third of total readership) must have made negative comments about the portrayal of women in comics at this point. That's pretty significant. What's also significant is there are over seven thousand times more female fans of the movies than the comics. The main difference that I see is the portrayal of female heroes.

[Davenport]

'Confusion' is in the eye-of-the-beholder as much as either beauty or offense.

It's no coincidence that nearly the entire population of women on the planet find these comics to be unreadable garbage.

Ok, I'm out. (thumbs u I didn't realize you were speaking for "nearly the entire population of women on the planet."

They spoke with their wallets, by not buying comics. And with their words, in the hundreds upon hundreds of articles and comments regarding this very topic. If females make up five percent of comic readership, and there's thirty thousand Marvel readers, that means fifteen hundred of them are women. Five hundred of them (a third of total readership) must have made negative comments about the portrayal of women in comics at this point. That's pretty significant. What's also significant is there are over seven thousand times more female fans of the movies than the comics. The main difference that I see is the portrayal of female heroes.

I won't pretend to speak for women like you do, but I'll tell you where I think they are. I think they get their heroic fixes with paranormal romance, steampunk and the like. I think that because when looking for books I have to wade through the massive amounts of material aimed straight at them, young schoolers to outright mommy-porn. Gemstone doesn't even have vocabulary for how HUGE that market is.

 

And I would imagine MAJOR publishing concerns market research to death EXACTLY what women buyers respond to.

 

And guess what.

 

Vinyl-packed booty and crossbows, Vinyl-packed booty and samurai swords, denim-pack booty and glow-magic, boob squishing corsets and knives, cleavage and spears, cleavage and guns, curvy, curvy HOT sexy imagery.

 

Of women, FOR women.

 

So if Marvel wants to go after that market, connect with those wallets, they damn sure better up their sexy.

 

[kav]

They love their hunger games. Misunderstood nobody chicks suddenly thrust into importance and with some type of unique skill with a definite love angle. That's what women like. Not wise cracking tough-guy women like in X Men. And definitely not always sticking their in the air. Katniss never stuck her in the air.

[vaillant]

Anybody get boiled in oil over this SDCC Exclusive?

 

 

Or how about the Kotobukiya Bishoujo Spider-Woman? Who looks decidedly juvenile in the face and head.

 

Both are examples of distorted body types that will sell. Neither are meant to be depictions of "real people", no more so than the comic book drawn versions.

'Confusion' is in the eye-of-the-beholder as much as either beauty or offense.

 

The Kotobukiya figure is nice, enough close to Jessica's actual features.

Somewhat younger, but nice.

 

That LEGO (like all these Lego figures) is merely a caricature, they are all the same.

 

And no, confusion is objective and it’s just brought by excessive pride which refuses to see the objective aspects of things.

[mrc]

I don't know about sexist, but that outfit sure looks like it would be uncomfortable

The position isn't the problem, although it's poorly drawn.

The "outfit" looks so tight it's probably body paint.

Which means she naked... that's the problem.

 

agreed, that's the only issue I have (poorly drawn).

[ComicConnoisseur]

'Confusion' is in the eye-of-the-beholder as much as either beauty or offense.

It's no coincidence that nearly the entire population of women on the planet find these comics to be unreadable garbage.

But yet millions of women watch the Kardashians?

 

[rjrjr]

Yeah, something seems different, don't you think?

 

 

Dupont, a great juxtapose that explains the problem exactly. The photo is a real human. Sexy, yes, but definitely real. The art on the other hand is ridiculous in comparison.

 

Couldn't help but notice we have another paraplegic drawing? Who thinks these cut off legs look correct?

I think the word you're looking for is "amputee"

 

A paraplegic still has limbs, just no feeling in them.

 

You are correct. My mistake.

[mysterio]

'Confusion' is in the eye-of-the-beholder as much as either beauty or offense.

It's no coincidence that nearly the entire population of women on the planet find these comics to be unreadable garbage.

Ok, I'm out. (thumbs u I didn't realize you were speaking for "nearly the entire population of women on the planet."

They spoke with their wallets, by not buying comics. And with their words, in the hundreds upon hundreds of articles and comments regarding this very topic. If females make up five percent of comic readership, and there's thirty thousand Marvel readers, that means fifteen hundred of them are women. Five hundred of them (a third of total readership) must have made negative comments about the portrayal of women in comics at this point. That's pretty significant. What's also significant is there are over seven thousand times more female fans of the movies than the comics. The main difference that I see is the portrayal of female heroes.

 

How many millions of men paid admission to Marvel films this summer yet will never pay for or read a comic? Does that mean they find them to be unreadable trash too? It would be the same logic to jump to the same conclusion. Like the fact that billions of people, including me, have never paid to get into the Louvre, so it must be a waste of building space.

[Davenport]

The Kotobukiya figure is nice, enough close to Jessica's actual features.

Somewhat younger, but nice.

 

That LEGO (like all these Lego figures) is merely a caricature, they are all the same.

 

And no, confusion is objective and it’s just brought by excessive pride which refuses to see the objective aspects of things.

Wait. The Lego is merely a caricature?

 

WTF?

 

It's ALL caricature. The Milo Manara is a caricature. The Lego is caricature. Those earlier example female artist's Pekar-ish journal meanderings are caricature. Marvel, DC, Zeniscope. All caricature. Right?

 

There is no Jessica. There is no 'actual features'. We all get that, right?

 

The discussion is about tolerating artistic expressions of fantasy. Yes? Male fantasy, female fantasy, acceptable fantasy, unacceptable fantasy, but fantasy, right? And how one's enjoyment of particular fantasy could be harming some upset victim-class collective. Or the whole of society? Yes?

 

This thread is wack. Honestly, at this point, I don't what the hell's being discussed. Beyond 'Manara bad, Marvel worse, pervs suck'.

[Speedy-D]

The Kotobukiya figure is nice, enough close to Jessica's actual features.

Somewhat younger, but nice.

 

That LEGO (like all these Lego figures) is merely a caricature, they are all the same.

 

And no, confusion is objective and it’s just brought by excessive pride which refuses to see the objective aspects of things.

Wait. The Lego is merely a caricature?

 

WTF?

 

It's ALL caricature. The Milo Manara is a caricature. The Lego is caricature. Those earlier example female artist's Pekar-ish journal meanderings are caricature. Marvel, DC, Zeniscope. All caricature. Right?

 

There is no Jessica. There is no 'actual features'. We all get that, right?

 

The discussion is about tolerating artistic expressions of fantasy. Yes? Male fantasy, female fantasy, acceptable fantasy, unacceptable fantasy, but fantasy, right? And how one's enjoyment of particular fantasy could be harming some upset victim-class collective. Or the whole of society? Yes?

 

This thread is wack. Honestly, at this point, I don't what the hell's being discussed. Beyond 'Manara bad, Marvel worse, pervs suck'.

Believe it or not, this is going nowhere. Best to let it die and all stay friends.

[Santt19]

So....anyone else picking this issue up?

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

I think what a lot of people are missing is that covers like this help perpetuate the attitude that women exist for the purpose of men's pleasure. Because Spider-Woman is not posed in such a way that suggests anything other than, "Here's my body; check it out."

 

Some are arguing that it's just a drawing, but that attitude carries over and expresses itself in real life, in the form of harassment on the street, or specifically in the case of comic fans, as harassment at cons. Check out any discussion about cosplay and I guarantee you a good percentage of the comments will address specifically whether the person is physically attractive, and not mention the costume at all.

 

Marvel can decide whether they want to be part of perpetuating this attitude. With this cover they've indicated that they're okay with that.

[achisholm]

I personally agree with Davenport's earlier comment.

 

I just showed my wife this picture and asked what she thought.

 

She said that she doesn't see anything wrong with it, and for a reason I don't think anyone mentioned earlier. So I thought I'd add it to the discourse.

 

She said that across media, women are often portrayed as skinnier or waifish. Here, if you notice it, you notice curves. She said that it's nice for a change for images and standards women have to adhere to not being that of the overly-skinny, photoshopped person.

 

That's in a characterized world where women (and men) are in SUPER-HUMAN or MUTATED form.

 

tl;dr - At least we're complaining about curves and not telling women they're bad because they aren't skinny. That is the opposite of some of the negative body image media.

[Bronty]

Guess: most of the guys on this thread speaking for women like they are one don't actually, you know, enjoy their company very often

 

It's misdirected energy of another type. Guys that are happy with that part of their life don't feel 'outrage' when they see a pic of, heaven forbid, a booty

 

I'm out

[Scturo]

For me, looking at a woman's body is like looking at a Corvette. It looks good from every angle.

[Davenport]

Believe it or not, this is going nowhere. Best to let it die and all stay friends.

Yep, I agree it's going nowhere. At the same time it really is an important thread to have. In my mind Milo Manara is the unfortunate momentary-equivalent of that 7-yr old schoolboy who ate his Poptart the wrong way. Just rockin' along and *BOOM*, a firestorm.

 

Political correctness really needs to called out whenever it pops up (which seems to be a lot these days). It can do real harm to individuals, companies, careers, neighbors, hell, anybody who inadvertently steps in it.

 

It's just the situation we all live with today. Any blogger can attack anything anytime, and if the target is big enough, the attack controversial enough, other media will pick it up and amplify it around the world.

 

 

[Hamlet]

I think the issue is that Marvel said that they were going to produce some comics that did a better job of portraying women, specifically called out this title, and then proceeded to continue to produce material that no parent would want to give to their daughters, and few adult women would be interested in reading.

 

As dupont2005 says, there is a reason that there aren't many women buying comics. As far as I am aware, Marvel doesn't currently make a superhero comic that would be appropriate for an 8-12 year old girl (or really a boy, for that matter). As a responsible parent, I can't really introduce my daughters to comic books with the new material Marvel is currently producing.

 

It doesn't have to be about taking away from what is currently being produced. I have no problem with Marvel producing all of the lame hyper-sexualized garbage targeted at immature men that they can sell. Being an occasionally immature male, I might even buy some on occasion, but I'm never going to buy it for my daughters.

 

I'd love for there to be a female equivalent to Dikto's/Romita's Spiderman that I could get for my daughters, but so far I haven't found anything remotely close. Failing that, even something that portrayed women in non-hyper-sexualized way would be an improvement. However, it doesn't look to me like Marvel is going to produce anything I'd feel comfortable with as a parent anytime soon.

 

That doesn't bode well for future comic book sales numbers.

 

I don't really understand the backlash. Is it not possible that the visual sexualization of women in mass media is a problem? Is it not possible that images like this, taken en masse over the course of a lifetime, can warp the opinions of many different types of people, both consciously and unconsciously? Might it not be true that, even if it sells, and sells well, it's still not 100% cool? Or that someone could write an article like the one in the OP from a place of actual concern, and not just knee-jerk over-PC BS? I too think that hot women are hot, and I like to see them. But that doesn't mean I can't accept at least the possibility that there might be a problem in there somewhere, or that I could even be part of that problem in my small way.

[Davenport]

Just rockin' along and *BOOM*, a firestorm.

Here, maybe this will bump the Manara story from the newscycle. Some kid letting his Ray Bradbury imagination get the better of him.

 

 

But a pet dinosaur?" said Alex's mother Karen Gray."I mean first of all, we don't have dinosaurs anymore. Second of all, he's not even old enough to buy a gun."