Sotheby's

[Terry Doyle]

In a nutshell, it's why Europe is so f:censored:ed.

Hey! Im f:censored:ing European ! (Dutch, actually), and generally I love it here. Still think this is a weird law, though. Didnt mean to turn this nice Sotheby/Christie discussion into a 'all-Europeans-are-f'ing-socialists' thread, though. Now back to the topic, you all !

 

 

 

[drdroom]

Going way, way back to the question of the well-served US market in OA, what Sotheby's/Christies might conceivably bring is a sense of prestige that might lure some fancy money into the game, off of their non-comic lists which are deep.

[drdroom]

which brings me to another question for the list: Do you think American OA is valued commensurately with European OA? For one obvious example, Kirby is as important as Herge, but not nearly as expensive. Is this only a supply issue, or does the European history of respect for the form play a significant part? Do European collectors find US art to be cheap?

[Bronty]

Going way, way back to the question of the well-served US market in OA, what Sotheby's/Christies might conceivably bring is a sense of prestige that might lure some fancy money into the game, off of their non-comic lists which are deep.

 

Sure, but you do get some of that with heritage already, and trying to "convert" collectors of one thing (say contemporary fine art) into collectors of another thing (say comic OA) never seems to end well. "Conversion rates" are typically very low. One might daydream about billionaires on sotheby's mailing list getting interested in comic OA, but its not going to happen just as you wouldn't be interested in vintage marbles if heritage sent you a flyer about them (unless you happened to already be interested in them). For comic related items, I'd take heritage's buyer pool over sotheby's any day.

[MHoes]

which brings me to another question for the list: Do you think American OA is valued commensurately with European OA? For one obvious example, Kirby is as important as Herge, but not nearly as expensive. Is this only a supply issue, or does the European history of respect for the form play a significant part? Do European collectors find US art to be cheap?

I honestly wouldnt know. Speaking for myself, Im an European buying American art because im mainly into the super hero genre - used to read those as a kid, reading them now - which pretty much is an USA based genre. I couldnt care less for TinTin, the Smurfs, or Asterix really. As for the USA art being 'cheap': most of it is pricier than I can afford.

[drdroom]

Going way, way back to the question of the well-served US market in OA, what Sotheby's/Christies might conceivably bring is a sense of prestige that might lure some fancy money into the game, off of their non-comic lists which are deep.

 

Sure, but you do get some of that with heritage already, and trying to "convert" collectors of one thing (say contemporary fine art) into collectors of another thing (say comic OA) never seems to end well. "Conversion rates" are typically very low. One might daydream about billionaires on sotheby's mailing list getting interested in comic OA, but its not going to happen just as you wouldn't be interested in vintage marbles if heritage sent you a flyer about them (unless you happened to already be interested in them). For comic related items, I'd take heritage's buyer pool over sotheby's any day.

 

In my case it would be more nightmare than daydream! The stuff costs way too much already. Agreed that collectors don't get converted (I'm afraid I've lost all my vintage marbles already ) --but INVESTORS might be another story.

I'll definitely go to HA or C-link with any low to mid-range stuff I want to sell, but if have a top-end domestic piece, and Sotheby's is doing a domestic OA sale, then I'm assuming all the BSD's are watching that auction. Heck, I'm a LSD, and I watch and bid in foreign auctions.

[Eltanin]

which brings me to another question for the list: Do you think American OA is valued commensurately with European OA? For one obvious example, Kirby is as important as Herge, but not nearly as expensive. Is this only a supply issue, or does the European history of respect for the form play a significant part? Do European collectors find US art to be cheap?

I'd say it's probably a bit of both, but the supply issue is in my opinion the most important factor of the two.

 

[drdroom]

which brings me to another question for the list: Do you think American OA is valued commensurately with European OA? For one obvious example, Kirby is as important as Herge, but not nearly as expensive. Is this only a supply issue, or does the European history of respect for the form play a significant part? Do European collectors find US art to be cheap?

I honestly wouldnt know. Speaking for myself, Im an European buying American art because im mainly into the super hero genre - used to read those as a kid, reading them now - which pretty much is an USA based genre. I couldnt care less for TinTin, the Smurfs, or Asterix really. As for the USA art being 'cheap': most of it is pricier than I can afford.

 

I should have said "comparatively cheap". I would personally collect both, but a Pratt or a Moebius is so much money compared to a Neal Adams or John Buscema page of what I view as equal importance, that it's hard to justify. If I had the money, I'd love a nice Blueberry page at 30K, but then I would have to stop and consider that I could get an UNBELIEVABLE Kirby page or an Adams COVER, or an A+++ Buscema Surfer page.

[NicoV]

which brings me to another question for the list: Do you think American OA is valued commensurately with European OA? For one obvious example, Kirby is as important as Herge, but not nearly as expensive. Is this only a supply issue, or does the European history of respect for the form play a significant part? Do European collectors find US art to be cheap?

I'm not sure about this "European history of respect" ! That's quite funny because I thought that * you * had much more consideration for comics, that it was a part of your culture. In France, comics are still considered by a majority of people as a hobby for children, and talking about money is taboo. When friends see original art on my walls and I talk about collecting original art, first they smile because it reminds them childhood memories, then they widen their eyes when I say that "some pages are worth thousands of euros". No need to say that I never talk about what I spent for Moebius, Franquin, Bilal or Uderzo art, they would not believe it.

 

French/belgian collectors is a small world, with only a few gallerists, a few auction houses with 2-4 auctions per year each (with seller fees around 10% and buyer fees around 25% !!). So yes French/Belgian market is really expensive on major names. Supply for top art is an issue. It's also becoming really expensive (and I would say "speculative") on less known artists, simply because they don't sell or only a few pages and because gallerists push them to do so. You'll now see Marini or Lauffray pages (you probably never heard about them) at $5.000-$10.000! During the Christies auction in April some illustrations from modern and not especially renowned artists were sold for more than $50.000 (see this one for instance). Their main interest was their dimensions. It seems that in France size does matter ;-)

 

I do find US art to be ... not necessarily cheap but at least more affordable. because it is, and because of the forex rate. It's great when you want to buy some art from a represented artist because you can find (nearly?) every produced art at decent prices. What is more difficult is to source older artwork. In my case I'm not talking about super-heroes but more about nice artwork from artists like Herriman, Wrightson, Frazetta, Mark Schultz or what I would call "reference" series like Sin City, Watchmen or LXG. But for younger series with a real success in Europe like Walking Dead, 100 Bullets, Hellboy ... yes, prices are far lower than prices for successful french/belgian series (e.g. Marini / Lauffray), even if you take extra fees (shipping and french customs * sigh *) or premium into account. In France you will hardly find a published page (not talking about commissions or illustrations) for a few hundreds dollars. I sold one page from a major artist on the Christies auction in April and could buy several pages from major US artists, from worldwide known series. The consequence is that my last 20 or so purchases are modern US comics, both from online galleries and collectors (no need to check my CAF page, it's not up to date )

 

My two cents.

(and sorry for my poor English ... as you know, french people are not really good in foreign languages )

[Bronty]

Great insight! Thx for sharing that

[vodou]

I do find US art to be ... not necessarily cheap but at least more affordable. because it is, and because of the forex rate.

Interesting observations from "the other side".

 

I buy a lot of European and the recent dip in the EUR against USD had me on a bit of a spending spree the last month. It's all relative, as we surely both remember EUR 1:1 but more recently 1.40. Last week's 1.25:1 was a nice relief and two sellers in Germany were happy to get my business

 

Getting back to some earlier comments...the only thing I think Sotheby's (or Christie's) coming back to comic art would do is possibly open the door to more European exposure here. A sort of cross-pollination? I'd love a NYC sale loaded with Euro art, and not just the million dollar works but the 5-50k too, all priced in USD and with domestic shipping/insurance attached. But we're probably a long way to never on that. Maybe if more translations were being collected and re-published over here? I have so much art that I've acquired for beauty alone, can't read the books

[drdroom]

which brings me to another question for the list: Do you think American OA is valued commensurately with European OA? For one obvious example, Kirby is as important as Herge, but not nearly as expensive. Is this only a supply issue, or does the European history of respect for the form play a significant part? Do European collectors find US art to be cheap?

I'm not sure about this "European history of respect" ! That's quite funny because I thought that * you * had much more consideration for comics, that it was a part of your culture. In France, comics are still considered by a majority of people as a hobby for children, and talking about money is taboo. When friends see original art on my walls and I talk about collecting original art, first they smile because it reminds them childhood memories, then they widen their eyes when I say that "some pages are worth thousands of euros". No need to say that I never talk about what I spent for Moebius, Franquin, Bilal or Uderzo art, they would not believe it.

 

French/belgian collectors is a small world, with only a few gallerists, a few auction houses with 2-4 auctions per year each (with seller fees around 10% and buyer fees around 25% !!). So yes French/Belgian market is really expensive on major names. Supply for top art is an issue. It's also becoming really expensive (and I would say "speculative") on less known artists, simply because they don't sell or only a few pages and because gallerists push them to do so. You'll now see Marini or Lauffray pages (you probably never heard about them) at $5.000-$10.000! During the Christies auction in April some illustrations from modern and not especially renowned artists were sold for more than $50.000 (see this one for instance). Their main interest was their dimensions. It seems that in France size does matter ;-)

 

I do find US art to be ... not necessarily cheap but at least more affordable. because it is, and because of the forex rate. It's great when you want to buy some art from a represented artist because you can find (nearly?) every produced art at decent prices. What is more difficult is to source older artwork. In my case I'm not talking about super-heroes but more about nice artwork from artists like Herriman, Wrightson, Frazetta, Mark Schultz or what I would call "reference" series like Sin City, Watchmen or LXG. But for younger series with a real success in Europe like Walking Dead, 100 Bullets, Hellboy ... yes, prices are far lower than prices for successful french/belgian series (e.g. Marini / Lauffray), even if you take extra fees (shipping and french customs * sigh *) or premium into account. In France you will hardly find a published page (not talking about commissions or illustrations) for a few hundreds dollars. I sold one page from a major artist on the Christies auction in April and could buy several pages from major US artists, from worldwide known series. The consequence is that my last 20 or so purchases are modern US comics, both from online galleries and collectors (no need to check my CAF page, it's not up to date )

 

My two cents.

(and sorry for my poor English ... as you know, french people are not really good in foreign languages )

 

Thank you Nico, for this detailed response! You have crushed my illusions. As a young child reading Maurice Horn's History of the Comic Strip

 

I read of a wonderful land where the "bande dessinee" was revered as a high art form. Perhaps it was wishful thinking.

[drdroom]

I do find US art to be ... not necessarily cheap but at least more affordable. because it is, and because of the forex rate.

Interesting observations from "the other side".

 

I buy a lot of European and the recent dip in the EUR against USD had me on a bit of a spending spree the last month. It's all relative, as we surely both remember EUR 1:1 but more recently 1.40. Last week's 1.25:1 was a nice relief and two sellers in Germany were happy to get my business

 

Getting back to some earlier comments...the only thing I think Sotheby's (or Christie's) coming back to comic art would do is possibly open the door to more European exposure here. A sort of cross-pollination? I'd love a NYC sale loaded with Euro art, and not just the million dollar works but the 5-50k too, all priced in USD and with domestic shipping/insurance attached. But we're probably a long way to never on that. Maybe if more translations were being collected and re-published over here? I have so much art that I've acquired for beauty alone, can't read the books

 

Sounds like you (and I) are getting our wish, not from Sothebys, but from the leader in OA auctioning:

NEW YORK — Heritage Auctions has announced the husband-and-wife team of Joe and Nadia Mannarino are joining Heritage Auctions and will head the company's East Coast comic books and original comic art category, including building and conducting Heritage's first auction of European comic art.

[Bronty]

Whoah! Interesting changes afoot

[vodou]

Sounds like you (and I) are getting our wish, not from Sothebys, but from the leader in OA auctioning:

NEW YORK — Heritage Auctions has announced the husband-and-wife team of Joe and Nadia Mannarino are joining Heritage Auctions and will head the company's East Coast comic books and original comic art category, including building and conducting Heritage's first auction of European comic art.

Wow. What timing! I'm a terrible skeptic, but I'll reserve judgement until I see how this plays out...not sure the real money here will pay up for European, but I am hoping it works well enough to get past the curse of one and done. These things need time to grow an audience (like the Illustration category). And maybe they'll unearth pieces I haven't been able to, that would be cool.