The Beginning of the End posted by bagofleas

[CSJournals-migration]

NYCC -Ground Zero!!

 

No, this journal is not about a certain class action lawsuit being taken by CGC corporation against another third party grading company, which by the way, I am in complete disagreement with and very disappointed about, but won't go into details on it here for fear of deletion (do it CGC, I dare you!). But, I still love all you hard working CGC guys and gals at the convention booth and behind the scenes with grading and encapsulating, shipping, receiving, quality control....yada yada yada.

 

 

 

No, this journal is about something else, which had set its roots about 18 months ago, when there started to be a serious uptick in the number of people getting their books signed by creators for the purposes of grading and (usually) flipping for profit.

 

 

 

I understand that this has gone on for as long as CGC has been in business, but as of 18 months ago, the amount of this that was taking place began skyrocketing and hasn't stopped since. It has become more and more difficult to get things done at a show due to massive book volume from dealers looking for quick turnarounds for profit.

 

 

 

Baltimore this year was a good example of this. CGC onsite-graded so many books on just the first day, that by the time the show was over, they had done SDCC type numbers! They ran out of materials for crying out loud!

 

 

 

There have been a few creators in the past who have been averse to signing books when they know it's for CGC (Barry Windsor Smith for example), but NYCC this year is becoming ground zero now for what would appear to be the start of a new era in signing for graded books.

 

 

 

Image comics has released a statement about what will be permitted when getting your books signed by the creators at their normal times at their tables. They will only allow for non-grading books! If you want your book signed for grading, then you MUST go directly through the grading company! And even if you have non-grading books, they will only allow up to 5 books per person!

 

 

 

Some of the big names affected by this are Todd McFarlane and Rob Liefeld. I understand that this is at least partly due to the long lines that are generated by an enormous show like NYCC, in order to make it so everyone has a chance to get sigs, but I believe this is also to divert those who would, for example, bring 30 copies of New Mutants 98, hoping for a big payday. But this could also be the beginning of a very slippery slope.

 

 

 

Almost 15 years into third-party grading, there is no question that it has transformed our hobby, but I think we are seeing the start of a negative effect from it. If this continues and grows from here, I think we will eventually start seeing two things:

 

 

 

1) SS books will start rising in cost, due to the added expense of having to go through the grading companies.

 

2) Fewer books overall will be done, again due to the added expense of having to go through the grading companies.

 

 

 

Ironically enough, while CGC likes having people go through them to get sigs, because it helps with volume flow at a show and makes people deal directly with them, I think this is ultimately a bad thing for them. At first, it will help them, but if all or most creators eventually start doing this, it will mean even more of a swamping at the CGC booth, since everyone will have to go through them to get these sigs.

 

 

 

High-volume dealers and flippers have become a wedge, and Image comics has struck the first blow on the wedge between the collectors who want to collect their books a certain way and the creators, who are beginning to tire of feeling like they are being taken advantage of, for someone else's profit.

 

 

 

It's beginning to look like the days of walking up to a creator and quickly getting a signature for your graded book are numbered. The horizon looks blurry, like a desert with no end in sight, and the sun seemingly getting hotter and hotter. Beware of mirages that would fool you into thinking things will go back to normal.

 

 

 

Things may never be normal again........

 

See more journals by bagofleas

[bagofleas]

Please don't reply to this journal about the subject at the beginning. I don't want it to be removed. Just respond in regards to what you think about the changes to some signings at NYCC.

 

What do you think this bodes for our hobby??

[seanfingh]

 

I think you are overstating the fact that this is a "last 18 month" phenomenon. Since 2010, there has been a direct movement away from the concept that SS books are just like every other book being signed at a con, except they end up being slabbed by CGC.

 

Stan Lee, Todd McFarlane, Tony Moore, Robert Kirkman and, to a lesser extent, many of the Masters and Legends only creators (Joe Simon, Gene Colan etc.) have been available only through designated appointees.

 

Even guys like Jim Lee and Geoff Johns had become exceedingly difficult to get "in the wild."

 

The number of creators that charge for their autograph is on a steady increase from the early 2010 time frame as well.

 

What is different in the last 18 months is that CGC is on the forefront of the delivery of these controlled signing opportunities. I have a personal belief that this is a concerted effort on their part to take control of their brand (the Yellow Label) for a number of reasons:

 

(1) Explosive growth in the program

(2) Creators become agitated at slabs and slab prices (BWS, Al Plastino)

(3) Increasing desire to provide creators with understanding about the program and an opportunity to participate therein (with their comp copies or whatever).

 

I, like you, have predicted the market for these books to become more robust as they become more expensive to create oneself. That has not played out just yet, but like you, I still think it is the most logical result.

 

Viva La SS!!

[surfer99]

It's beginning to look like the days of walking up to a creator and quickly getting a signature for your graded book are numbered. The horizon looks blurry, like a desert with no end in sight, and the sun seemingly getting hotter and hotter. Beware of mirages that would fool you into thinking things will go back to normal.

 

 

 

Things may never be normal again........

Talk about doom and gloom bagofleas, thanks a lot man. I just had this vision of my youngest teenage son walking up to get his (not owned yet but hopefully some day) copy of NM 98 signed and slabbed by Leifeld only to be rebuffed and have his dreams come crashing down..."Sorry kid, you can't meet the artist and have him sign your book. You have to drop it off at the CGC booth and they will get it signed for you...and in a few months you'll get to see it again." Not cool. I'm getting really tired of the fans ending up with the short end of the stick. This is OUR hobby! How did that fact get lost so quickly on the companies and creators that are supposed to be catering to us, not the other way around?!? Ok, done venting now, thanks.

[bagofleas]

It's beginning to look like the days of walking up to a creator and quickly getting a signature for your graded book are numbered. The horizon looks blurry, like a desert with no end in sight, and the sun seemingly getting hotter and hotter. Beware of mirages that would fool you into thinking things will go back to normal.

 

 

 

Things may never be normal again........

Talk about doom and gloom bagofleas, thanks a lot man. I just had this vision of my youngest teenage son walking up to get his (not owned yet but hopefully some day) copy of NM 98 signed and slabbed by Leifeld only to be rebuffed and have his dreams come crashing down..."Sorry kid, you can't meet the artist and have him sign your book. You have to drop it off at the CGC booth and they will get it signed for you...and in a few months you'll get to see it again." Not cool. I'm getting really tired of the fans ending up with the short end of the stick. This is OUR hobby! How did that fact get lost so quickly on the companies and creators that are supposed to be catering to us, not the other way around?!? Ok, done venting now, thanks.

I'm completely with you on that bud! Sorry to sound all gloomy Gus about it, but I can see the writing on the wall with this newest development. It will probably start with the big shows. It will take longer to trickle down into the smaller cons probably but it's not looking good for the long term.I too am disappointed at the possibilty of not being able to do things like we have in the past, but to be honest, as we get older, many things from our past are slowly going the way of the dinosaur. Just look at Saturday morning cartoons. GONE! Everything is "get it instantly whenever you want it" now, and while in many ways that's awesome, in some ways it makes things seem less appreciated for what they are.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

I think you are overstating the fact that this is a "last 18 month" phenomenon. Since 2010, there has been a direct movement away from the concept that SS books are just like every other book being signed at a con, except they end up being slabbed by CGC.

 

Stan Lee, Todd McFarlane, Tony Moore, Robert Kirkman and, to a lesser extent, many of the Masters and Legends only creators (Joe Simon, Gene Colan etc.) have been available only through designated appointees.

 

Even guys like Jim Lee and Geoff Johns had become exceedingly difficult to get "in the wild."

 

The number of creators that charge for their autograph is on a steady increase from the early 2010 time frame as well.

 

What is different in the last 18 months is that CGC is on the forefront of the delivery of these controlled signing opportunities. I have a personal belief that this is a concerted effort on their part to take control of their brand (the Yellow Label) for a number of reasons:

 

(1) Explosive growth in the program

(2) Creators become agitated at slabs and slab prices (BWS, Al Plastino)

(3) Increasing desire to provide creators with understanding about the program and an opportunity to participate therein (with their comp copies or whatever).

 

I, like you, have predicted the market for these books to become more robust as they become more expensive to create oneself. That has not played out just yet, but like you, I still think it is the most logical result.

 

Viva La SS!!

I think your mic is turned off.

 

I can hear you through the monitors, but not through the house PA system.

 

[Park]

I think you are overstating the fact that this is a "last 18 month" phenomenon. Since 2010, there has been a direct movement away from the concept that SS books are just like every other book being signed at a con, except they end up being slabbed by CGC.

 

Stan Lee, Todd McFarlane, Tony Moore, Robert Kirkman and, to a lesser extent, many of the Masters and Legends only creators (Joe Simon, Gene Colan etc.) have been available only through designated appointees.

 

Even guys like Jim Lee and Geoff Johns had become exceedingly difficult to get "in the wild."

 

The number of creators that charge for their autograph is on a steady increase from the early 2010 time frame as well.

 

What is different in the last 18 months is that CGC is on the forefront of the delivery of these controlled signing opportunities. I have a personal belief that this is a concerted effort on their part to take control of their brand (the Yellow Label) for a number of reasons:

 

(1) Explosive growth in the program

(2) Creators become agitated at slabs and slab prices (BWS, Al Plastino)

(3) Increasing desire to provide creators with understanding about the program and an opportunity to participate therein (with their comp copies or whatever).

 

I, like you, have predicted the market for these books to become more robust as they become more expensive to create oneself. That has not played out just yet, but like you, I still think it is the most logical result.

 

Viva La SS!!

 

I feel like a V-8.

 

Or maybe some microwaved eggs.

 

With Pico.

 

And a Corona.

 

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

I think you are overstating the fact that this is a "last 18 month" phenomenon. Since 2010, there has been a direct movement away from the concept that SS books are just like every other book being signed at a con, except they end up being slabbed by CGC.

 

Stan Lee, Todd McFarlane, Tony Moore, Robert Kirkman and, to a lesser extent, many of the Masters and Legends only creators (Joe Simon, Gene Colan etc.) have been available only through designated appointees.

 

Even guys like Jim Lee and Geoff Johns had become exceedingly difficult to get "in the wild."

 

The number of creators that charge for their autograph is on a steady increase from the early 2010 time frame as well.

 

What is different in the last 18 months is that CGC is on the forefront of the delivery of these controlled signing opportunities. I have a personal belief that this is a concerted effort on their part to take control of their brand (the Yellow Label) for a number of reasons:

 

(1) Explosive growth in the program

(2) Creators become agitated at slabs and slab prices (BWS, Al Plastino)

(3) Increasing desire to provide creators with understanding about the program and an opportunity to participate therein (with their comp copies or whatever).

 

I, like you, have predicted the market for these books to become more robust as they become more expensive to create oneself. That has not played out just yet, but like you, I still think it is the most logical result.

 

Viva La SS!!

 

I feel like a V-8.

 

Or maybe some microwaved eggs.

 

With Pico.

 

And a Corona.

 

I'm having Pantry Raid Chicken tonight.

[n2wdw]

Interesting post. I've seen it before in other contexts, when the secondary market profits off the primary market, the primary market will take steps to suck up those profits. I see this in wine, which I also collect. Collectors buy direct from wineries and then sell for a profit. Wineries see this and increase their price to match what they see on the secondary market.

 

Here's the risk. Sometimes the secondary market does not reflect the true price of the wine, but just a subset of the fanatical/devoted collectors. So when the winery increases their price, their sales go down across the board. Or, they lose those devoted collectors. Once sales go down it's hard for the winery to recover (ie, they are no longer the "hot" wine).

 

So relating that to your Image example, right now they're hot, people see the big lines for sigs, that feeds into itself and makes them more hot. Now they put into place these restrictions. Less people go for sigs. Smaller lines, that results in the perception that Image is no longer so hot. The lines get smaller.

 

My point is, the primary market has to be careful when trying to capitalize on the gains of the secondary market. If the devoted collectors move on to other things, it's hard to get them back. Greed is not good.

[N/A]

Most of your post did not play out as predicted. The only SS issue I am aware of was McFarlane and that is a well known, unlimited annual signing. With anything you can't please everybody so there are exceptions among creators who simply hate the SS program. They are a very small minority. It wasn't that long ago that you simply dropped off books at the CGC booth and they ran around.

The only difference I see in the last few years is the overall popularity of comics. This creates pressure and to alleviate some of the pressure there have to be controls. I don't see this as a trend but more of a temporary solution in a time of overwhelming popularity. I have said for the last couple of years that anyone could literally fall on a comic book and make money. It won't last and this "trend" will revert.