Is this medium killing itself?!

[delekkerste]

Is it high end comic book collecting?, then sure its a self selecting group with a relatively high price for joining. But that's like complaining that collecting Lamborginis is too expensive of a hobby.

 

The base price for a new V-12 Lamborghini has gone up roughly 4x in price in the past 30 years (Countach vs. Aventador). As we were discussing in the "Are key comics a good investment?" thread, an AF #15 5.0/5.5 has gone up 50-fold plus during that time. So, yeah, it used to be expensive to buy a Lamborghini, and it still is. Compared to median household income, it cost about 4 and a half times the average to buy a new V-12 Lambo 30 years ago, and now it takes close to 8x. So, even adjusted for income, they've become almost twice as expensive. But, that's nothing compared to AF #15, which has become about 14x as expensive when adjusted for income vs. 30 years ago.

 

So, yeah, it's a much higher barrier to entry than it used to be. Sure, there's something for every budget in this hobby, from 50 cent books on up. But, if you're a young person today, spoiled for choice with almost unlimited hobby/entertainment/spending options, are you really going to be happy getting into a hobby where you know that you've been priced out of much of the better/best stuff? Are you going to be happy collecting dollar bin drek? It's true that prices have always seemed high, but, back in the day, it was mostly a psychological hurdle. Now the hurdle is both psychological and mathematical/financial with books like AF #15 up 50-fold or more since then. And let's not even get started on Action #1. Back then, paying 4 or 5 figures for an Action #1 was considered crazy, but many adult collectors could theoretically have afforded one. Now almost everyone is bullish on Action #1 and hardly anyone can afford one.

 

Is the medium killing itself? No, I don't think the medium is doing anything - as people have noted, there are still plenty of good books coming out these days (just not at Marvel, ). It's the market that's sowing the seeds of its eventual downfall, not the medium itself. The market already will have to contend with the demographic cliff some years from now, and escalating prices won't help attract fresh blood to the hobby aside from speculators. As they say, there's no cure for high prices like high prices.

[HouseofComics.Com]

This is what I have often thought. It's not like there's movie goers out there buying their first comic book.

 

The hobby is feasting upon itself.

 

There are tons of collectors who quit in the 80s and 90s and the movies do bring those guys back in, for sure. Many. Which adds a real boost to things.

 

The movies do bring in some young people (or if not the movies, just a sense that comics are cool and interesting). Sent an ASM 8 to a guy last week who is in his mid-to-late 20s with no history of reading a single comic in his childhood or teen years and just sold today a Detective 105 to a guy in his early 20s who thinks comics are cool and wants it on his wall. He's probably going to end up only buying 10 comics a year and more as objects or pieces of art, not for story reasons, but it's something. (These are just anecdotes to show that some new collectors are coming in. Not that prices on FF 45 aren't ridiculous...)

[Pedro1974.5]

Is this medium killing itself?!

 

Yes. When I see a sales thread with 5-7 copies of FF 45, yes.

 

Flippers flipping to flippers are killing this hobby.

 

No affordable copies left for the collectors. Yet dealers have a bunch of them.

 

 

Ditto

 

I have a VGish FF45 since many years and happy with it, but for example my FF52 is at best a poor one (really loved comic). Wwould love to upgrade it, when i say upgrade have a F/VF nothing too fancy (9.0's an up). But came on the 8.0's are getting near the a grand an a half, the ragged copies of Hulk 181 fetch half a grand,... just ridiculous

 

Indeed flippers flip flippers and collectors that miss the boat, well, they wave and accept the holes in their respective collections.

 

I just think it keeps a lot of people away and even tend to leave a bitter taste in the mouth (or wallet) of longtime collectors/ fans.

 

The avengers 1st ultrons, visions, etc... (and i have these and nice shape), who can get near those prices (again i'm not talking about 9.0's and up)?!

 

Everything is just about money, money, money,...

 

it tends to fade the magic of being a fan/ collector.

 

sorry, end of rant

 

regards

Why are you waiting until now to buy an FF 45 or Avengers 55, 57? Did you suddenly realize these were valuable and now you want them? Because a couple of years ago you could've gotten them at a very reasonable price. But to say that the hobby is killing itself because of dealers, flippers, dead kennedys or black flags just because a literal handful of key books per title have jumped in price ignores the plain fact that 95% or more of any silver and Bronze Age run is cheap as sheet. avengers, cheap. Iron man, twice as cheap. Thor? Good golly, even a 126 can be had in great shape for relative peanuts. Daredevil, please. Out of over 1,000 issues of these titles, there are less than 30 keys, so go ahead and pick up the other 970+ issues and by the time you're done, the prices on these must haves will have had time to settle into their fair market value. Whatever that is.

 

not waiting to buy the ones you've referd, i have them and very happy with the copies, just mentionning the fact that the prices are exploding sky high. ANd for the collectors (not flippers) who are looking is more difficult, that's all.

 

Yes i agree with you, there are a lof more affordable comics in the runs you've mentioned, than "keys". But in a décades time some of the major titles have also gone up steadly...

 

Maybe people who are sellers have another look at the medium, if they are able to buy collections and acess some nice stuff for a more affordable price per issue, on the opposite of the collectors who track them individually.

And this is in no way "a take" to sellers...

 

regards

[quicksilver]

This is what I have often thought. It's not like there's movie goers out there buying their first comic book.

 

The hobby is feasting upon itself.

 

Well said indeed - feasting upon itself...I like that term.

[lizards2]

Is this medium killing itself?!

 

Yes. When I see a sales thread with 5-7 copies of FF 45, yes.

 

Flippers flipping to flippers are killing this hobby.

 

No affordable copies left for the collectors. Yet dealers have a bunch of them.

 

 

Ditto

 

I have a VGish FF45 since many years and happy with it, but for example my FF52 is at best a poor one (really loved comic). Wwould love to upgrade it, when i say upgrade have a F/VF nothing too fancy (9.0's an up). But came on the 8.0's are getting near the a grand an a half, the ragged copies of Hulk 181 fetch half a grand,... just ridiculous

 

Indeed flippers flip flippers and collectors that miss the boat, well, they wave and accept the holes in their respective collections.

 

I just think it keeps a lot of people away and even tend to leave a bitter taste in the mouth (or wallet) of longtime collectors/ fans.

 

The avengers 1st ultrons, visions, etc... (and i have these and nice shape), who can get near those prices (again i'm not talking about 9.0's and up)?!

 

Everything is just about money, money, money,...

 

it tends to fade the magic of being a fan/ collector.

 

sorry, end of rant

 

regards

Why are you waiting until now to buy an FF 45 or Avengers 55, 57? Did you suddenly realize these were valuable and now you want them? Because a couple of years ago you could've gotten them at a very reasonable price. But to say that the hobby is killing itself because of dealers, flippers, dead kennedys or black flags just because a literal handful of key books per title have jumped in price ignores the plain fact that 95% or more of any silver and Bronze Age run is cheap as sheet. avengers, cheap. Iron man, twice as cheap. Thor? Good golly, even a 126 can be had in great shape for relative peanuts. Daredevil, please. Out of over 1,000 issues of these titles, there are less than 30 keys, so go ahead and pick up the other 970+ issues and by the time you're done, the prices on these must haves will have had time to settle into their fair market value. Whatever that is.

 

My copy off FF 45 has CT and I had always wanted to upgrade it for probably the past 20 years - I just never found the right copy. Now it will likely never happen. Why? Because it has been priced into the stratosphere by greed. I don't see the book holding the value either, so maybe 5-10 years from now, I'll be able to afford a nice copy again. If you have dealer/flipper upon flipper/dealer with 10 copies each, where is the demand for this book? Doesn't seem to be from the collector base. Flippers flipping to f'n flippers.

 

In 20 years you couldn't find a high grade copy of FF 45? That's hard to believe considering up until a couple years ago it was a nothing book. More likely you passed on it multiple times thinking you could get a nice copy any time. It was easily attainable on ebay at any given day. I bought a high grade copy 4 years ago for 90 bucks just to fill a hole in my collection not because I cared 2 about the Inhumans. As far as I knew nobody cared about Inhumans until there was movie buzz.

I collect a lot of mess. May be hard for you to believe, but I don't think so. It wasn't on your radar screen, and wasn't on mine either. The glory of hindsight. I was busy collecting lots of other mess.

[Jaymole]

I definitely see some kind of correction coming in the next few years. The prices on some of these books are getting way out of hand. Prices on a lot of these books has doubled in just the past 2 years, (and I am not talking about ones that are tied into a movie coming out). I have seen this before and I just don't see any way that this will sustain itself.

 

There is also a lot of greed in this hobby...this is not new, but I hate seeing it from members here on this forum. Luckily, it is just a handful that I had the misfortune of dealing with, (and will make sure never to deal with again), but I am probably one of the few who would love to see a correction come, maybe that will flush some of the greed out of this hobby.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FineCollector]

I definitely see some kind of correction coming in the next few years. The prices on some of these books are getting way out of hand. Prices on a lot of these books has doubled in just the past 2 years, (and I am not talking about ones that are tied into a movie coming out). I have seen this before and I just don't see any way that this will sustain itself.

 

Yup. Has anyone here bought a Batman 121 to put in their collection since the price spiked?

[Pedro1974.5]

 

to everyone

 

several points have been presented on the different arguments: the 90's phenomen, the variant mouvement, the movies impact, the digital/ internet revolution, etc...

 

altought we have seen periods of price increase in the past 2 décades, nowadays the time period of "fever peaks" seems to be more and more longer, stronger and deep. When i say deep, it's related also to a certain shift of how several persons may collect. It's not rare to see fans, and when i say fans i say collectors (one of the many ways of being a comics fan), who are tempted to sell part of their collections to gather funds for more important acquisitions and doing it may developpe another way of positioning themselfs in the medium and therefore the market itself.

 

Of course it won't be a great surprise to see price corrections in the near future, but i have a felling that it's correction might be minor in comparison to the huge increase in value.

 

The line between major characters, second ones, insignificant ones and even the appearance of certains "détails" (1st vibranium, 1st Garvis aspirator, ) are being puted up in the same "bag" (of course spidey and garvis aspirator aren't exactelly in the same dimension, but you get what i'm saying, i hope).

 

it seems that there are some new caracteristics being presented by the people in the medium that might forge some new takes on this form of art.

 

regards

[wombat]

A dealer acquires a key book and then sells it.

A flipper acquires a key book and then sells it.

 

One is the good guy and one is the devil. Makes sense.

 

 

[jaeldubyoo]

The hobby is driven by money. Take the money out of the hobby and you'll have far fewer people in the hobby.

[rodan57]

A dealer acquires a key book and then sells it.

A flipper acquires a key book and then sells it.

 

One is the good guy and one is the devil. Makes sense.

 

 

 

... putting the dichotomy to one side, under the new market conditions, how many flippers now exist for every dealer?

[MrBedrock]

A dealer acquires a key book and then sells it.

A flipper acquires a key book and then sells it.

 

One is the good guy and one is the devil. Makes sense.

 

 

 

... putting the dichotomy to one side, under the new market conditions, how many flippers now exist for every dealer?

8.34

[1Cool]

A dealer acquires a key book and then sells it.

A flipper acquires a key book and then sells it.

 

One is the good guy and one is the devil. Makes sense.

 

 

 

... putting the dichotomy to one side, under the new market conditions, how many flippers now exist for every dealer?

8.34

Three fifty

[Bomber-Bob]

IMO, hoarding is fine. It can even be viewed as a genre of collecting. 'I like Harbinger 4 so much I am going to grab every copy I can'. No biggie. However, arranging for fake sales and trying to pimp the book on the Boards is evil !

[NewWorldOrder]

The fact that this book sells for more or as much as the first appearances of Wolverine (Hulk 180 & 181) has always seemed like an indicator to me that there are some really messed up things in this hobby.

 

 

It`s a manufactured collectible like something you buy at the Franklin Mint.

Now that isn`t bad because the Franklin Mint is a billion dollar business.

So some people are making profits.

The bad news is most Franklin Mint stuff is always sold for a loss by the owners when they try to unload their manufactured collectible on EBay a few years down the road.

So just figure out what THE manufactured comic book collectibles are and which ones have true value.

 

One thing I STRESS is these manufactured collectible comics do bring in money to the hobby, so they are not entirely a bad thing.

IMHO.

 

"What I collect rules, what you collect sucks."

Yep, and that`s why I STRESSED the manufactured collectibles do bring in money to the hobby which is a positive..

 

People can collect all the 9.8 variants they want at $100 to $1000 a piece, and it`s good for the hobby moneywise.

The only negative is when these people go to sell those 9.8 variants down the road in 5 to 10 years they shouldn`t be shocked if they lost money.

The shiny new variant today will be replaced by the next shiny new variant tomorrow.

 

 

 

Guys please don't use the 3rd best variant since 2000 as your example.

 

That book is worth exactly what it should be worth. Go find that book in that condition and get back to me. I can find hundreds of copies of Hulk 181 before I even see one of those in a comic con anymore. I had 4 CGC 9.8's sold them for $600 a piece and was happy at the time. Now I could vacation in Europe for a couple months for what they go for now.

[NewWorldOrder]

If this hobby is too expensive for you I really believe this is the best advice I can give you.

 

[jsilverjanet]

If this hobby is too expensive for you I really believe this is the best advice I can give you.

 

 

+1

 

[BarryAllen]

The fact that this book sells for more or as much as the first appearances of Wolverine (Hulk 180 & 181) has always seemed like an indicator to me that there are some really messed up things in this hobby.

 

 

It`s a manufactured collectible like something you buy at the Franklin Mint.

Now that isn`t bad because the Franklin Mint is a billion dollar business.

So some people are making profits.

The bad news is most Franklin Mint stuff is always sold for a loss by the owners when they try to unload their manufactured collectible on EBay a few years down the road.

So just figure out what THE manufactured comic book collectibles are and which ones have true value.

 

One thing I STRESS is these manufactured collectible comics do bring in money to the hobby, so they are not entirely a bad thing.

IMHO.

 

"What I collect rules, what you collect sucks."

Yep, and that`s why I STRESSED the manufactured collectibles do bring in money to the hobby which is a positive..

 

People can collect all the 9.8 variants they want at $100 to $1000 a piece, and it`s good for the hobby moneywise.

The only negative is when these people go to sell those 9.8 variants down the road in 5 to 10 years they shouldn`t be shocked if they lost money.

The shiny new variant today will be replaced by the next shiny new variant tomorrow.

 

 

 

Guys please don't use the 3rd best variant since 2000 as your example.

 

That book is worth exactly what it should be worth. Go find that book in that condition and get back to me. I can find hundreds of copies of Hulk 181 before I even see one of those in a comic con anymore. I had 4 CGC 9.8's sold them for $600 a piece and was happy at the time. Now I could vacation in Europe for a couple months for what they go for now.

 

:shrug:

 

Hulk 181 is common, but this book is in a massive bubble (along with all other Modern books worth over $100). Modern variant covers won't be worth squat in a few years. I think the point was that it was worth more than the first appearance of the character, which in concept is a good point.

 

Something isn't valuable only because it is rare. Supply AND demand. Long term, there will be zero demand for this book and all those that bought these at the peak will be left holding $1 books when they eventually want to sell (for whatever reason).

[NewWorldOrder]

The fact that this book sells for more or as much as the first appearances of Wolverine (Hulk 180 & 181) has always seemed like an indicator to me that there are some really messed up things in this hobby.

 

 

It`s a manufactured collectible like something you buy at the Franklin Mint.

Now that isn`t bad because the Franklin Mint is a billion dollar business.

So some people are making profits.

The bad news is most Franklin Mint stuff is always sold for a loss by the owners when they try to unload their manufactured collectible on EBay a few years down the road.

So just figure out what THE manufactured comic book collectibles are and which ones have true value.

 

One thing I STRESS is these manufactured collectible comics do bring in money to the hobby, so they are not entirely a bad thing.

IMHO.

 

"What I collect rules, what you collect sucks."

Yep, and that`s why I STRESSED the manufactured collectibles do bring in money to the hobby which is a positive..

 

People can collect all the 9.8 variants they want at $100 to $1000 a piece, and it`s good for the hobby moneywise.

The only negative is when these people go to sell those 9.8 variants down the road in 5 to 10 years they shouldn`t be shocked if they lost money.

The shiny new variant today will be replaced by the next shiny new variant tomorrow.

 

 

 

Guys please don't use the 3rd best variant since 2000 as your example.

 

That book is worth exactly what it should be worth. Go find that book in that condition and get back to me. I can find hundreds of copies of Hulk 181 before I even see one of those in a comic con anymore. I had 4 CGC 9.8's sold them for $600 a piece and was happy at the time. Now I could vacation in Europe for a couple months for what they go for now.

 

:shrug:

 

Hulk 181 is common, but this book is in a massive bubble (along with all other Modern books worth over $100). Modern variant covers won't be worth squat in a few years. I think the point was that it was worth more than the first appearance of the character, which in concept is a good point.

 

Something isn't valuable only because it is rare. Supply AND demand. Long term, there will be zero demand for this book and all those that bought these at the peak will be left holding $1 books when they eventually want to sell (for whatever reason).

 

Here let me educate you on important variants that aren't garbage since 2000.

 

1. Batman 608 RRP

2. Wolverine #1 Deadpool from above

3. Siege Deadpool "pimp" variant

4. yet to be determined....SAGA #1 RRP

[kav]

Something is valuable because of

Rarity

Condition

Significance

Demand

 

A single variant may be rare and it may be currently in demand but I can see the day when the flood of variants makes them all 'just another variant'.