The Silence of the Avengers 2!!!

[hammer-migration]

Personally, I totally disbelieve Marnin Rosenberg's claim that he "submitted 6 books to CGC that Susan Ciccone had worked various restorative procedures on and smoked all 6 right by them". Possibly it was an exaggeration. Maybe he submitted 6 books and only ONE smoked by, with very minor work, maybe none at all. Who could know for sure? Maybe he submitted 6 DRY-cleaned books and they passed because CGC DID notice but their criteria does not consider a mild cover abrasing as restoration (like the erased pencil on the now infamous Nic Cage Marvel Mystery 33). Who the hell knows?

In my estimation, based on the right edge (not just the size but the TYPE of cut that the edge exhibits with it's "stutter-cut" that twists and turns as well as bites into the paper unevenly, and I don't mean chips) it's scissors apparatus cut. I looked at the book as a potential bidder and I passed based on my opinion. I saw red-flags and flares. I may be right or I may be wrong. THAT'S the dichotomy of grading and that's why 5+ graders used to sit on the Sotheby's grading Board. A pooling of opinion and reaching of a decision that since it's my money, I can agree, disagree with, or reserve judgement on.

It's also why I raised the point of you Board Members that have owned or do own comic retail outlets that have people off the street bringing in collections to sell. I mentioned that in my estimation, you would be hard pressed to find a virgin collection that had a book in it that had a similar spiraling right edge cut instead of a typical beveled arc that is consistant from book to book as tooled and died on the standard Marvel production line. This Avengers 2 has a right edge, the first three inched of, that starts with a twisting edge (like the vortex effect of a thin stream of water from a faucet) and THEN CHANGES in midcut. VERY typical of something cut by HAND, not machine. Or a machine (like a paper cutter) activated/controlled by HUMAN hand. Just my opinion, it's value being admittedly secondary to CGCs.

[B-Smooth]

That does sound like a load of [!@#%^&^]. Im just glad i dont collect SA or GA comics, the controversy is just tooooooo intense!

[drbanner]

The Avengers 2 in question does look a little ragged on the right edge, although many of the copies of this issue I've seen look trimmed since part of the comics code on the right edge is cut off...like this one:

 

[ninanina]

Ya know, the fact that there is doubt is the real problem. In a perfect world, anyone's reaction to Hammer's opinion would be "No way that comics been cut, it was CGC'd and they didn't see any restoration."

 

When we run across a comic that we know had a pencil mark removed, pressed and re-graded at a higher grade without the restoration being noticed, leads us to believe that it is very possible for CGC to grade a comic without noticing the restoration. So, when we see something suspicious (like Hammer did) flags go up.

 

There's only a few people that know right now. Once word gets out and after a few more of these inconsistencies, will CGC actually become un-important to a certain degree? I mean right now it's yeah I know you're comics been CGC'd, but how do know it's not been restored? All you can agree to is that it probably has not been restored, but you know... I'm not sure because of that Heritage thing. That's exactly opposite to what everyone wants or everyone wanted CGC to stand for. Looks bleak, but probably only to the extent of what CGC'd comic values will stand for in the future.

 

(Bug, welcome back. I like a man whose not afraid to express his opinion, warped as it is.)

 

 

[hammer-migration]

Doc, Your image is even more evidentiery of what I'm trying to explain in regards to the CUT itself. The fact of the intrusion on the comic code of the "scissors-cut" copy, or size is TOTALLY secondary. The image YOU posted displays an AVengers 2 with a NORMAL, MARVEL MACHINERY cut right edge. Look at the difference. The is a DRASTIC departure from the one you posted, or any other. The cut on the image you posted has a right edge with beveled/arced pages produced on MARVEL MACHINERY of the period. Compare the two CLOSELY. No similarities of cut whatsoever.

[fantastic_four]

Once word gets out and after a few more of these inconsistencies, will CGC actually become un-important to a certain degree?

Nah. They're still better at finding work than 99.5% of anyone you'll ever buy a raw comic from. Welcome to the cutting edge of restoration, where it's the slight restorers vs. the detectors...the slight restorers, like all criminals, will always be a bit ahead of the people who try to chase them down. Just like the state of the art in crime is almost always ahead of the state of the art in policework and written law. We don't get rid of the cops just because they can't always catch every crook.

[PovertyRow]

I took a few long looks at this scan over a couple of days to avoid a snap judgement. In my opinion, from what I see in the scan, this was at the least very poorly cut, and most probably HAS been trimmed. What leads me to this conclusion is that the edge is not straight. It has three different angles, with the apexes (apexi?) being:

 

first apex - about at the point where the word PHANTOM is in the black slug that says "Armed With A Fantastic Power, The SPACE PHANTOM. The angle goes TOWARDS the interior of the book.

 

second apex - Where the wasp is saying "He's About To Attack IRON MAN" - The angle goes AWAY from the interior of the book.

 

If I had to make a decision I would say this was cut by either a paper cutter as in Hammer's p[hoto or a straight edge with a blade. In both cases, it can be very difficult for the less experienced to maintain an absolutely straight, parallel edge.

 

Just my opinion.

[fantastic_four]

Were the edges of comics sliced before the book as a whole was assembled or after?

[PovertyRow]

First off - I responded to this but got a "Web Page Not Found" error - finally got back in and my reply is not there so replying again (luckily was able to go Back and copy/paste)

 

Were the edges of comics sliced before the book as a whole was assembled or after?

 

I honestly do not know. However, obviously cutting HAD to occur before assembly because these pages and covers were on different stock and printed multiple times up on one sheet. They would be printed in "printers pairs" (pages with numbering like this for an 8 page book: 8 - 1, 2 - 7, 6 - 3, 4 - 5. You add up the page numbers of any single sheet of two pages, they will total the number of pages in the book plus 1). It would be impossible (or insane) to assemble the printed output into books and then cut them, at least from what I know of my experience in the printing industry. The printers pairs for the interior pages would have to be cut, and the covers would be cut. Most likely the resulting pages would be assembled, folded and saddle stitched. It may be possible a second, finish cut ocurred, but that is very doubtful taking into consideraiton the extra cost and also the overlap/underlap the covers display.

 

For some years I have been doing a little dabbling in how SA/GA books were printed. Maybe it is time I start to delve more deeply as it IS something that interests me greatly.

 

WIsh I could have been more definitive.

[fantastic_four]

In another thread over in the Silver Age forum, I posted another example of an angle-cut Daredevil #1. I've seen many Marvels issues where the right edge of most copies of that issue exhibit an angle cut, including Daredevil 1, Fantastic Four 25 and 67, and X-Men 40.

 

So here's my follow-up question that I was leading to with the previous question...if the interior pages are cut in a separate process from the cover, how could ALL the pages on these angle-cut books be at an angle? It would seem they'd all have to be cut at the same time for them all to exhibit the same angle like that...otherwise, you'd think some of the interior pages would be straight and the cover angled, or the cover straight and interior angled. I've got an angle-cut FF 25 and an FF 62, and on both copies, the cover and interior pages are cut at the same angle.

[PovertyRow]

if the interior pages are cut in a separate process from the cover, how could ALL the pages on these angle-cut books be at an angle?

 

Well, I am addressing this specific scan. Cases like this HAVE to be taken as individual studies. If you look at that Avengers 2 scan the interior pages are visible in the lower half but not the upper half. This alone would belie a sinlge cut for covers and interiors. And the more I think about it the more obvious it is that covers and interiors were cut seperately, or else we would never have the classic cover overhang.

[fantastic_four]

Yea, overhang, exactly. I have always assumed that each wrap was cut independently, and that Silver Marvels were not trimmed at the factory.Yet, I quite often see right edges where the cover and interior are both angled in the exact same way on the issues I mentioned previously. How can this be unless sometimes the edges were trimmed in post-assembly? Here's another example:

Click for larger image

[PovertyRow]

Here's another example

 

In that example, the book is miscut but evenly. That is, it is narrower at the top and progressively wider as you go down. That is different than three differing angles.

 

It is possible (and I say possible) that the same cutter was setup and used for batches of the final output, for both cover and interior. If that is the case, and if the cutter was slightly misaligned, then the interior pages and the covers would at least follow a common angle.

 

The Avengers scan shows two different sets of angkles. the intertior pages are hidden at the top but exposed at the lower half. The cover has three distinct angles to it. It just looks suspicious.

[fantastic_four]

How do we know the printers Marvel used didn't have a hand slicer sitting near the machinery that was used when they were near the end of the run and the big machinery broke down?

 

My assumption about trimming has always been that CGC can't detect certain types of trims...and that at times, they may suspect a trim, but they err on the side of caution. Kind of like the American system of justice hinges on "reasonable doubt"...if they have reasonable doubt that a book has been trimmed, they presume innocence over guilt.

 

It's hard for me to believe that ANY of us know exactly what went on in the printing runs unless we worked there in the old days like that Shuley guy does today.

[Rickdogg]

"Marvel's printing and quality control at that period of time was horrendous. Any legitimate dealer will tell you this. Many comics of the same issue were cut in different ways. Most people in our hobby can't tell if a comic is trimmed unless they take it out of a holder, let alone from a scan of a comic in a holder.

 

There is a reason people point out things like this and there is a reason people put up un-ceritified "high grade" comics on ebay that sell for 25% of what they would get if they were certified. Think about it or ask other board members. Even collector's and dealer's who don't agree with having a third party grade their comics, use CGC because buyers want to eliminate more of the uncertainty and reduce some of their risk when buying on the internet."

 

ROFL!

[hammer-migration]

That is VERY possible and is interesting food for thought (machinery breaks down...hand cut it). What IS obvious about that Avengers 2 is that it was CUT ONCE IT WAS ALREADY FULLY ASSEMBLED going against all convention we note on Marvel comic production in evidence by virtue of the typical existing edges.

The pages are cut from a large sheet with many pages on the sheet to approximately the same size (as far as tolerances allow), then lined up, folded, and stapled with a cover around them. THIS is what produces the arc, bow, or bevel on the right edge where the centerfold sticks out farthest to the right BEYOND the cover's right edge, being displaced in width by the 7 full 4 page sheets that precede it. This offset or arc, that looks like THIS: ) when viewed from the bottom end of the reading edge, rather than this: ] if the book is straight edge cut all at once as a whole, is what staggers the pages of EQUAL SIZE (as far as tolerances allow) to the right BEYOND the cover. The AV2 exhibits traits completely against that of a book where the components are CUT FIRST, then assembled, as ALL OTHER MARVELS (or at least 99.9%) seem to be.

[PovertyRow]

How do we know the printers Marvel used didn't have a hand slicer sitting near the machinery that was used when they were near the end of the run and the big machinery broke down?

 

These were high-capacity printers. They had and do have VERY tight schedules. The cost per hour they would have charged Marvel for hand-cutting books near the end of the run would have been do much more than Marvel would have made from those books that they would have said "Nah - nevermind."

 

But the real bottom line is they had more than one cutting station. All they would have had to do would be to cut them on another high capacity cutter. The concept of having a hand slicer standing by is just not one that would jive.

[fantastic_four]

Don't you think they must have trimmed a bunch in post-assembly for the reasons I mentioned previously about how the cover and interior on commonly-miscut issues always line up? The first time I noticed these angle-cuts was when I bought an FF 25 that had one, and you pointed out to me that almost EVERY copy of that issue has an angle cut. That's pretty strong evidence that Marvel sometimes--not always since many copies exhibit the centerfold pokethrough you pointed out--but sometimes, they must have trimmed that right edge after the book had already been assembled.

[fantastic_four]

It might depend on the printer. If you look at the first page of every Silver Marvel comic, you'll see that Marvel seemed to switch who did their printing every few months...I guess they were continually trying to cut their costs. I may go research the bottom of the first page of every Marvel from the 1960s to see how many different printers Marvel used during the Silver Age...has to be at least a half dozen or a dozen or more.

[hammer-migration]

Dogg, and while we're on the subject of 25% for RAW vs. slabbed, I might take this opportunity to remind people who actually believe that 25% hogwash that I realized $5700 in an Ebay auction for a RAW Spiderman 50 in NM/MT. How much more was to be gained by having it slabbed??? Does anyone actually think that the CGC equivalent 9.8 value of this book in a LEGITIMATE, UNSHILLED auction would have been FOUR time more ($23,000.00)??? From MY experience based on REALITY, not some speculation of Fantasy, Raw high grades do NOT sell for 25% of CGC equivalents. From my experience, the figure is usually closer to the 75% to 90% figure WITHOUT the added expense, possibility of loss of submitted items (see Gorgo about the meaning of frustration), and paying a percentage of the book's value (a piece of the "action").