Asian box is now checked off at the House Of Ideas...

[Smoak//Frost-migration]

 

Show me were I was telling you because Americans buy Japanese products that your people are well represented in the mainstream and you should be happy with what you get?

 

My point was Asian culture is much more American mainstreamed than the culture from the continent of Africa that you tried to compare it to.

 

Manga,Anime and Video games by the Japanese are much more mainstream than anything from the continent of Africa.

Nobody is telling you anything.

 

 

I don't think you have bad intentions so I'm not going after you hard but you literally said

 

What about manga and anime?

I say Asians are pretty well represented in pop culture.

 

That is not at all the same as what we are talking about. First of all Asian-American and Asian from the Mainland are different cultures and subsets of people. Second of all because a cultural import from Asia has had success in America or the West DOES NOT mean that all of a sudden Asian-American's are being represented in the media.

 

Also equating Asian products to actual Asian human beings is highly offensive, and if you can't see where your argument there is a bit messed up, then I think its best we just go our separate ways.

 

"Nobody is telling you anything." Please...

[ComicConnoisseur]

 

Show me were I was telling you because Americans buy Japanese products that your people are well represented in the mainstream and you should be happy with what you get?

 

My point was Asian culture is much more American mainstreamed than the culture from the continent of Africa that you tried to compare it to.

 

Manga,Anime and Video games by the Japanese are much more mainstream than anything from the continent of Africa.

Nobody is telling you anything.

 

 

I don't think you have bad intentions so I'm not going after you hard but you literally said

 

What about manga and anime?

I say Asians are pretty well represented in pop culture.

 

That is not at all the same as what we are talking about. First of all Asian-American and Asian from the Mainland are different cultures and subsets of people. Second of all because a cultural import from Asia has had success in America or the West DOES NOT mean that all of a sudden Asian-American's are being represented in the media.

 

You don`t think I know that?

That would be like me labeling that all white people have the same culture, and that there was no difference between Germans,Russians,Swedes,Italians,French and Americans.

 

 

 

[ComicConnoisseur]

 

Show me were I was telling you because Americans buy Japanese products that your people are well represented in the mainstream and you should be happy with what you get?

 

My point was Asian culture is much more American mainstreamed than the culture from the continent of Africa that you tried to compare it to.

 

Manga,Anime and Video games by the Japanese are much more mainstream than anything from the continent of Africa.

Nobody is telling you anything.

 

 

I don't think you have bad intentions so I'm not going after you hard but you literally said

 

What about manga and anime?

I say Asians are pretty well represented in pop culture.

 

Also equating Asian products to actual Asian human beings is highly offensive, and if you can't see where your argument there is a bit messed up, then I think its best we just go our separate ways.

 

"Nobody is telling you anything." Please...

IF me saying that Asian pop culture is mainstream in America is offensive to you, than that shows me that you my friend have a chip on your shoulder.

You sound like a guy who is use to people pandering to you.

IMHO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

And sorry to turn this into a race thing guys, but just giving my honest perspective

The OP made this a race thing. What you're saying makes perfect sense, and it's unfortunate that more people can't see it from the perspective of those that are underrepresented (or poorly represented) in entertainment.

 

Thanks buddy, I do appreciate it. I'm as apple-pie american as they come, but I do have full asian heritage. Growing up I was just used to Superheroes not looking like me, and that was just the way things go.

 

I think whats getting lost in a lot of this whole fuss about "Marvel's changing X just to be more diverse" is the fact that to a lot of us under-represented people, we don't care about the mandate that it might have come from, its just cool as hell to finally be represented.

 

Imagine if every superhero you loved wasn't your race, and then all of a sudden DC/Marvel decides to make one of their big guns your race. You'd be excited no? Now wouldn't it suck a little to hear everyone else complain about how this was just "for diversity's sake" or even worse some of the "Peter Parker's White" vitrol.

 

In some way we are all outcasts being such big fans of something a lot of people consider low-art or for kids, so I like to think we are a bit more inclusive and understanding of minority groups than the mass public.

 

<3 and peace in our time.

 

You don't think it's insulting that the apparent school of thought from the publishers is that minority characters can't achieve even limited success without replacing or copying white characters with an established fan base?

 

Of course its not ideal, but that's a systemic level problem with race in our country. I know some will say its a cop out, but hey every little step counts when it comes to seeing people like me, or more importantly the kids (because at this point I forget my skin color unless I look at the mirror), as super heroes.

 

There's no such thing as "systemic level." That's redundant. "Systemic" already means "system wide."

 

And no, there's no systemic racism in "our" country (I assume you mean the US) and hasn't been since at least the 70's.

 

What you see in the media is smoke and mirrors.

 

And Lazyboy is completely right. It's the bigotry of low expectations, that "minority" (whatever THAT means) characters can't succeed on their own, that they have to mimic established characters to be successful. It's just more of the same from the people who brought you the incredibly destructive "affirmative action."

 

"There, there, minority people. We know you're not capable of doing things yourself (except you overachieving Asians over there....we've got our eyes on you...), so we'll structure it so that expectations for you are lowered, so you can "compete at the same level" as everyone else (which is really a level, or several, down.) In essence: you can't compete on your own terms, and you need us kind, compassionate white folk (read: guilt-ridden liberals) to give you a "hand up" to bring you to our level."

 

Can you think of anything more demeaning, demoralizing, dis-incentivizing, and downright racist when applied to those of different ethnicities?

 

It's destructive to the core, and has done immeasurable damage to "minorities" in this country (with, again, the exception of the "overachieving Asians" who get mysteriously left out of these programs.)

 

I'm still waiting for the promise of judging everyone by the contents of their characters, rather than the color of their skin, to be fulfilled, all the way around, for everybody, all the time.

 

I'd also like to offer the counter argument of Silk, as well as the choice to make Daisy/Quake a half asian. They are trying, but do understand the way that big media works, its hard enough to get an Asian in a role where he's not doing Jet Li moves, and acting shady.

 

Not an attack on you because I know your hearts in the right place, but essentially are you saying we shouldn't accept these minority characters because the reason they exist is sub-optimal? Lets look back at Black Panther, The Falcon, Luke Cage, do you think marketing and execs really thought "lets make sure black kids have someone to look up to."

 

Marketing and execs...? At Marvel in the late 60's/early 70's? You mean, Martin and Stan...? Maybe Virginia...?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Nothing wrong with expanding the depth and breadth of Marvel characters, nothing wrong with expanding the comic-reading audience, but their ham-handed "diversity for diversity" marketing just comes across as pandering. That's all.

 

Pandering or not, the bottom line is we are finally seeing DIVERSITY and multi-dimensional minority characters in the books. I could care less what their PR spin is, or what makes their execs look good.

 

ALso when it comes to Cho, lets not forget that Pak and Takeshi Miyazawa created him.. That's a pretty huge deal as well. Two Asian creators, bringing a 3-dimensional chracter to the mainstream who now has a major role as one of the most identifiable supers on earth.

 

At a certain point, gotta let the diversity for diversity's sake argument go at some point. Is it annoying, YES, is it worth saying that these moves are in some way hurt by this, NO way.

 

Why is "diversity" solely for the sake of "diversity" a good thing....?

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Nothing wrong with expanding the depth and breadth of Marvel characters, nothing wrong with expanding the comic-reading audience, but their ham-handed "diversity for diversity" marketing just comes across as pandering. That's all.

 

Pandering or not, the bottom line is we are finally seeing DIVERSITY and multi-dimensional minority characters in the books. I could care less what their PR spin is, or what makes their execs look good.

 

ALso when it comes to Cho, lets not forget that Pak and Takeshi Miyazawa created him.. That's a pretty huge deal as well. Two Asian creators, bringing a 3-dimensional chracter to the mainstream who now has a major role as one of the most identifiable supers on earth.

 

At a certain point, gotta let the diversity for diversity's sake argument go at some point. Is it annoying, YES, is it worth saying that these moves are in some way hurt by this, NO way.

 

Why is "diversity" solely for the sake of "diversity" a good thing....?

 

Is that how you interpret that? As I see it, the term "diversity for the sake of diversity" is essentially saying that there is no value in having diversity; that diversity is the only end. The "gotta let the diversity for diversity's sake argument go at some point" suggests to me he's calling BS on that idea. And I agree.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

And Lazyboy is completely right. It's the bigotry of low expectations, that "minority" (whatever THAT means) characters can't succeed on their own, that they have to mimic established characters to be successful.

The problem with that statement is that there are a lot of high-quality books out there (the Valiant line and several Image books come to mind, especially) that don't have the sales numbers of characters that have been continuously published for decades. So it's not surprising that the Big Two, both huge corporations, would choose to make their move with known quantities (i.e. their existing, mostly white base of characters).

[Lonzilla]

It's not like Marvel hasn't had Asian superheroes before, Sunfire has been around for over 40 years. Yes, Asians are stereotyped in TV and movies, so maybe they should aim a bit lower in academia, and hold their guns sideways so the writers won't think they're all genius businessmen kung fu experts with words of wisdom for every situation who eat with chopsticks. Did I nail every -script stereotype there?

 

Madame Gao was one of the best characters on the Daredevil Netflix show. Man you do not wanna tick that lady off. Also, the blind Chinese guy who was singing the song in the cab, it made me and my gier look up the song and its origins. Beautifully done.

Having said all that mumbo-jumbo, I won't be buying the Cho-Hulk. Marvel is such a joke anymore that I only buy the Deadpool books, because they're meant to be ridiculous

[Lonzilla]

I must add that I was raised on Ultraman, Speed Racer, Johnny Sokko, Marine Boy, Space Giants,Kimba, and Battle Of the Planets. What a time for great TV!!!

[Mef]

What if Marvel is trying to create something like... an ALL NEW ALL DIFFERENT universe or something...

 

Wait.. What if Marvel is trying to increase their fan base?

 

Why can't we be excited that the same characters and stories that have been used up over the course of the last '50 years' are changing. We get new stories! New heroes! As a comic book fan this should be amazing news.

 

The fact that this thread exists at all shows that there is indeed systemic racism in our society, and in this forum.

 

If you are unhappy with the new Hulk simply because 'he's not white anymore' then you're a racist.

 

If you're unhappy with Thor because she's a she now, and not a he then you're a sexist.

 

We are all humans. We all deserve the same respect. I can't believe the level of ignorance I've witnessed in this thread. I really hope it gets locked, because it's a sad representation of some of the people who post here.

[Lonzilla]

If you are unhappy with the new Hulk simply because 'he's not white anymore" (or to paraphrase o.p. 'more importantly, what long-established white male characters are there still left that need a "facelift"?) then you're a racist.

 

If you're unhappy with Thor because she's a she now, and not a he then you're a sexist.

 

We are all humans. We all deserve the same respect. I can't believe the level of ignorance I've witnessed in this thread. I really hope it gets locked, because it's a sad representation of some of the people who post here.

 

I'm not buying the new Hulk because with the exception of some of the Waid issues, I haven't enjoyed The Hulk as a solid read since the John Byrne era (same goes with FF)

The Falcon as Captain America doesn't do it for me because after the whole Civil War thing from Rogers to Bucky back to Rogers again, it seems pointless

Thor for me as a whole was horrible since Simonson left until the Straczynski series which was well written like all of his stuff. The fact that a female Thor doesn't interest me doesn't make me sexist, it's my choice to not buy into what is a temporary marketing ploy which will be undone whenever the next Thor movie is set to be released.

What I or anyone chooses to buy, or not buy doesn't make us one of your SJW buzzwords, it's our personal tastes and choice. You forgot to call us "nazis", but yeah that's soooo 1996 and doesn'r sting anymore. You're just an elitist jerk and if you don't like the people who post here, please feel free to leave

[Mef]

If you are unhappy with the new Hulk simply because 'he's not white anymore" (or to paraphrase o.p. 'more importantly, what long-established white male characters are there still left that need a "facelift"?) then you're a racist.

 

If you're unhappy with Thor because she's a she now, and not a he then you're a sexist.

 

We are all humans. We all deserve the same respect. I can't believe the level of ignorance I've witnessed in this thread. I really hope it gets locked, because it's a sad representation of some of the people who post here.

 

I'm not buying the new Hulk because with the exception of some of the Waid issues, I haven't enjoyed The Hulk as a solid read since the John Byrne era (same goes with FF)

The Falcon as Captain America doesn't do it for me because after the whole Civil War thing from Rogers to Bucky back to Rogers again, it seems pointless

Thor for me as a whole was horrible since Simonson left until the Straczynski series which was well written like all of his stuff. The fact that a female Thor doesn't interest me doesn't make me sexist, it's my choice to not buy into what is a temporary marketing ploy which will be undone whenever the next Thor movie is set to be released.

What I or anyone chooses to buy, or not buy doesn't make us one of your SJW buzzwords, it's our personal tastes and choice. You forgot to call us "nazis", but yeah that's soooo 1996 and doesn'r sting anymore. You're just an elitist jerk and if you don't like the people who post here, please feel free to leave

 

I don't know why you felt you had to explain yourself to me but you didn't read my post.

I said if those were the only qualms you had with it then you were a racist/sexist. You obviously have other reasons, but you can't hate a story that doesn't yet exist.

 

Think what you want of me, I stand up for everyone's rights to speak their mind and be represented equally. Even if it's ignorant.. but I don't have to like it. Which is what makes America great.

[nixnix]

I must add that I was raised on Ultraman, Speed Racer, Johnny Sokko, Marine Boy, Space Giants,Kimba, and Battle Of the Planets. What a time for great TV!!!

 

Yeah me too, great stuff.

 

I'm half Asian (Taiwanese and Japanese mix) and half White and was born in Taiwan and I think the new Hulk is Lame, so does that make me half a racist?

[Mef]

I must add that I was raised on Ultraman, Speed Racer, Johnny Sokko, Marine Boy, Space Giants,Kimba, and Battle Of the Planets. What a time for great TV!!!

 

Yeah me too, great stuff.

 

I'm half Asian and half White and was born in Asia and I think the new Hulk is Lame, so does that make me half a racist?

 

I guess I don't understand how anyone could think something is lame before they know what it is.

 

The reason racism was brought up is due to several comments and inflections made by various people. I did quote the o.p. originally but edited it out after I calmed down. I'm white and my wife is hispanic. I live in colorado which is an amazingly progressive state, yet I still see racism. And to see people casting stones at things simply because they have changed race or gender is wrong. But that was my point. If your only reason that 'this is bad' is because 'he's not a white guy anymore' then yea, that's racist.

[nixnix]

I must add that I was raised on Ultraman, Speed Racer, Johnny Sokko, Marine Boy, Space Giants,Kimba, and Battle Of the Planets. What a time for great TV!!!

 

Yeah me too, great stuff.

 

I'm half Asian and half White and was born in Asia and I think the new Hulk is Lame, so does that make me half a racist?

 

I guess I don't understand how anyone could think something is lame before they know what it is.

 

The reason racism was brought up is due to several comments and inflections made by various people. I did quote the o.p. originally but edited it out after I calmed down. I'm white and my wife is hispanic. I live in colorado which is an amazingly progressive state, yet I still see racism. And to see people casting stones at things simply because they have changed race or gender is wrong. But that was my point. If your only reason that 'this is bad' is because 'he's not a white guy anymore' then yea, that's racist.

 

My point was meant to be taken lightly, but I grew up with the original Hulk and I'm not saying the new Hulk is bad, but just changing him to please the PC masses to sell more comics is silly. They could have made him a Red or Blue Hulk and that would have been somewhat different.

[Mef]

I must add that I was raised on Ultraman, Speed Racer, Johnny Sokko, Marine Boy, Space Giants,Kimba, and Battle Of the Planets. What a time for great TV!!!

 

Yeah me too, great stuff.

 

I'm half Asian and half White and was born in Asia and I think the new Hulk is Lame, so does that make me half a racist?

 

I guess I don't understand how anyone could think something is lame before they know what it is.

 

The reason racism was brought up is due to several comments and inflections made by various people. I did quote the o.p. originally but edited it out after I calmed down. I'm white and my wife is hispanic. I live in colorado which is an amazingly progressive state, yet I still see racism. And to see people casting stones at things simply because they have changed race or gender is wrong. But that was my point. If your only reason that 'this is bad' is because 'he's not a white guy anymore' then yea, that's racist.

 

My point was meant to be taken lightly, but I grew up with the original Hulk and I'm not saying the new Hulk is bad, but just changing him to please the PC masses to sell more comics is silly.

 

I understand that you and many others have many valid opinions as to why you don't like the concept.

 

I should have known the comment wouldn't be read in its' entirety. This is a forum, the minute you say racist or sexist it takes a turn for the worse.

 

Its' funny though that the guy who calls out the racism is getting the heat.. why not the people mad that the white guys are gone..

 

No one needs to defend themselves, but I find defending myself on this point hilarious. If the mods see fit to ban me they will, otherwise I will continue lurking.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

What if Marvel is trying to create something like... an ALL NEW ALL DIFFERENT universe or something...

 

Wait.. What if Marvel is trying to increase their fan base?

 

Why can't we be excited that the same characters and stories that have been used up over the course of the last '50 years' are changing. We get new stories! New heroes! As a comic book fan this should be amazing news.

 

Which isn't true, and never has been. "There's nothing new under the sun." That means that everything, every plot, every idea, every story, has been told in one form or another. It's ALL been done before.

 

Fortunately, we have a built in device to combat boredom: the life cycle. Yes, that's right...people die, and new people replace them, people who've never heard these stories before, so it's new to them. It's always new to someone.

 

There is no such thing as "characters and stories that have been used up." There's always something new, something different, a new way of looking at the same old, a fresh way to tell the same essential stories.

 

The fact that this thread exists at all shows that there is indeed systemic racism in our society, and in this forum.

 

No.

 

If you are unhappy with the new Hulk simply because 'he's not white anymore' then you're a racist.

 

If you're unhappy with Thor because she's a she now, and not a he then you're a sexist.

 

That, of course, with all due respect, is completely, utterly, totally, unequivocally false.

 

"Change for the sake of change", whether it's to pander to a demographic, or to pander to a certain ideology, is still pandering. These changes should be made (and have been made, and, indeed, if they even SHOULD be made) organically, within the context of stories, in ways that make sense. That's how to do it the right way. Want to make an Asian character with the powers of the Hulk? Create a new character. Want to make Thor a female? Create a new character, or a new spin in the context of a story that makes sense.

 

By the way...many of these "white" characters (whatever that really means. I'm not white....I'm decidedly beige, and occasionally pink) have been made into other ethnicities, with no explanation, "just because."

 

How many people, however, would be up in arms of the Black Panther was played by Bradley Cooper? Or Storm played by Ken Jeong? Or Lois Lane played by Lebron James, while Superman is played by Betty White? There's nothing stopping anyone from creating new, interesting, and exciting characters. There's no need, however, to strip existing characters of their identities to do so.

 

By the way....for one of the original, groundbreaking, breathtaking, non-pandering, and realistic transformations of a character's ethnicity, read Grant Morrison's Animal Man #1-4. Top notch, it is, and doesn't do it for the sake of doing it, without explanation.

 

We are all humans. We all deserve the same respect. I can't believe the level of ignorance I've witnessed in this thread. I really hope it gets locked, because it's a sad representation of some of the people who post here.

 

We all deserve the same respect....? Really...? Even the people you think are racists and sexists....?

 

 

When we stop making decisions...."good" OR bad, negative OR "positive"...about ANYONE based on the color of their skin, then, and only then, will we have truly eradicated racism. So long as we "prefer" one over the other, for any reason other than skill and qualification, no matter how "noble" the motive seems to the preferer...then there will always be racism.

[Doktor]

no one at these big companies does anything except to appeal to the 'bottom line'. IF they're trying to add diversity (which it appears they are), its not because they because they're trying to engender social change and force it down your throat, but reacting to the social and multicultural change they're are seeing in purchasing markets in America and worldwide. Its not ultimately about making their universe more diverse, its about making their customer demographic more diverse, and more importantly LARGER. And they apparently think that the most reasonable way to do that is to attempt to reach previously underrepresented markets in hopes of attracting new readers, as well as giving them access to previously untold stories/art/creative content.

 

For example, if I've owned a successful burger shop for 30 years selling nothing but 5 delicious (but pretty standard American) burgers, and I notice the demographic in my area has become more Hispanic, I might consider replacing a burger targeted more toward one of the Mexican demographic than I have in the past. Is it because it keeps me up at night that downtrodden Mexicans can't get enough guacamole or pico de gallo on their burgers in my neighborhood? Am I giving them pity guacamole? EFFFF that, its because I think I will get more new customers than I lose by replacing the burger, especially since I make damn good burger and plenty of other races love guacamole burgers now too.

 

Now in the same burger example, replace Mexicans with HIPSTERS. They're generally white, and I want their money just as much so I replace and existing burger with Kale/Gluten Free/Turkish Honey/handmade/grass fed paleo dinosaur meat burgers. Is it because I wish I had more white customers? Or just because I want a larger share of a marketplace which has changed demographics (and tastes) over time?

 

Its really the same with big business. They're trying to increase sales and appeal to a larger, more diverse (in population and taste) marketplace, and they're making moves which they hope will help them do that. Its' really that simple.

 

 

Its always economics first. For those of you that think otherwise, you should probably ask yourself why you're reading so much into it. You should also realize that ANY public statements made by staff/press/management should be taken with a grain of salt. They have agendas, or the people who told them what to say have agendas, and those agendas may not be representative in every case of the truth. And the truth for those in power is that they think this is the best way to get money.

 

 

 

Agreed 99%.

 

Only quibble I have is that I don't think Marvel is seeing significant actual changes in demographics at the moment but is forecasting changes in the future & trying to adjust ahead of time so that when the future (which may be 3, 6, 12, 24 months down the line?) shifts in buying preference really take hold, it prevents their competition (be it DC, Image or the video game/any-other-entertainment-medium) from already having the inside tract on it. They're trying to be a market leader in sales by being ahead of the curve of future buying tastes.

 

It's not really that big of a gamble either. It's something that they can adjust away from if the PC pendulum (in a manner of speaking) swings back the other way by just having a return of the original characters with a brand new #1, a big relaunch & a boatload of press to announce "The Long-Awaited Return of the REAL Captain America!!" if the aforementioned future buying demographic shift doesn't happen as forecast. But if they don't make the adjustment ahead of time & look like they're on the forefront and being "super Progressive", they'll get accused of pandering by those same customer demographics that they would otherwise be trying to appeal to by making changes after the shift (potentially) comes.

 

The rest of it & the "why's" and "what's" of that forecasted demographic shift is a fight for the overall culture war. Marvel is just trying to forecast ahead of time, future-proof their product & leave themselves escape routes that don't look too obviously like base pandering no matter where the cultural winds shift.

 

I don't necessarily like it, and it's somewhat-negatively impacting storytelling in the books I read (well, that + movie rights issues) but I don't like it. I don't know if I'll keep reading when the obvious pandering move of bringing back the white guys kicks in when the PC Pendulum swings the other way, but probably. I'm a sucker for things with an X in the title.

 

Not true. There has been a huge female readership increase over the last decade.

 

There has. So I'll change it to 99.2% agreement. Female readership has increased significantly but to what degree is entirely unknown (even if they like to bandy about numbers that are simply conjecture since there's no way to accurately track it without essentially polling every shop owner & Comixology & their own app & Amazon & every other retailer out there that involves knowing the gender of their buyers). There's been no real reports about other significant non-white-male demographic shifts in the buyers. Last time I heard a number thrown out by Marvel was something like 47% female readers? I doubt that's accurate unless they are giving significant weight to their digital readership.

 

Additionally, I did say "significant'. I meant to imply an overall significant change. % of buyers by gender has changed somewhat in the past decade. % of buyers by gender/race/ethnicity/religion/sexual orientation overall has not drastically changed to the same degree as Marvel has shifted the demographics of their marquee characters in the past few years. At least not as much of a proportional shift.

 

But the point I'm making is that it's there's an expectation of a changing buying demographic in the next few years & they're trying to make sure they're ahead of the curve. And they're using the increase in female readership as a directional arrow for the cultural winds.

[PIR8]

 

There's no such thing as "systemic level." That's redundant. "Systemic" already means "system wide."

 

And no, there's no systemic racism in "our" country (I assume you mean the US) and hasn't been since at least the 70's.

 

What you see in the media is smoke and mirrors.

 

And Lazyboy is completely right. It's the bigotry of low expectations, that "minority" (whatever THAT means) characters can't succeed on their own, that they have to mimic established characters to be successful. It's just more of the same from the people who brought you the incredibly destructive "affirmative action."

 

"There, there, minority people. We know you're not capable of doing things yourself (except you overachieving Asians over there....we've got our eyes on you...), so we'll structure it so that expectations for you are lowered, so you can "compete at the same level" as everyone else (which is really a level, or several, down.) In essence: you can't compete on your own terms, and you need us kind, compassionate white folk (read: guilt-ridden liberals) to give you a "hand up" to bring you to our level."

 

Can you think of anything more demeaning, demoralizing, dis-incentivizing, and downright racist when applied to those of different ethnicities?

 

It's destructive to the core, and has done immeasurable damage to "minorities" in this country (with, again, the exception of the "overachieving Asians" who get mysteriously left out of these programs.)

 

I'm still waiting for the promise of judging everyone by the contents of their characters, rather than the color of their skin, to be fulfilled, all the way around, for everybody, all the time.

 

You make very well articulated arguments, and I typically admire the way you do so. But the above is most certainly just your opinion, and you've stated it very matter-of-factly. I don't usually have the time or the focus to get into wordy arguments, but I thought I'd give a response...

 

[...] And no, there's no systemic racism in "our" country (I assume you mean the US) and hasn't been since at least the 70's.

 

What you see in the media is smoke and mirrors.

 

I disagree. I don't know how to prove that there is, but many many people agree that there is in one way or another. So I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there is a logical and reasonable argument to the contrary.

 

 

And Lazyboy is completely right. It's the bigotry of low expectations, that "minority" (whatever THAT means) characters can't succeed on their own, that they have to mimic established characters to be successful...

 

I'm assuming that ""minority" (whatever THAT means)" is sarcasm, but I don't really understand the point of it. You disagree with the entire concept of the term "minority"?

 

It's not about minority [superhero] characters succeeding on their own, its about any new superhero character succeeding on its own. Lots of brand new titles flop and flounder. Obviously the big wigs and Marvel and DC have an agenda to push a more diverse line up. It's become apparent that that is a goal of theirs, some think its a goal, but it is one. So if that's their angle, why would it make more sense to build a brand from the ground up and hope that it catches on in a big way, as opposed to simply shaking up their current hit titles? They are constantly making huge "earth shattering" changes to their universes, why is this one so pathetic? They aren't mimicking established characters, they are becoming established characters. According to wikipedia, there have been 4+ different iterations of The Flash, 7 of Batman, and 13+ Captain Americas. Were all of those changes just as pathetic? Why is it only when the character's race (or gender) changes that there is so much backlash?

 

...It's just more of the same from the people who brought you the incredibly destructive "affirmative action.

 

"There, there, minority people. We know you're not capable of doing things yourself (except you overachieving Asians over there....we've got our eyes on you...), so we'll structure it so that expectations for you are lowered, so you can "compete at the same level" as everyone else (which is really a level, or several, down.) In essence: you can't compete on your own terms, and you need us kind, compassionate white folk (read: guilt-ridden liberals) to give you a "hand up" to bring you to our level."

 

Can you think of anything more demeaning, demoralizing, dis-incentivizing, and downright racist when applied to those of different ethnicities?

 

It's destructive to the core, and has done immeasurable damage to "minorities" in this country (with, again, the exception of the "overachieving Asians" who get mysteriously left out of these programs.)

 

 

Your interpretation of affirmative action is kinda gross. It's supposed to be a way to allow minorities into careers and industries that for a long time locked them out. I'm sure you won't believe this, but there are operations all over the country that would hire zero minorities at all given the option. There are HR reps who won't even consider hiring a black or hispanic or middle eastern applicant unless their hand is forced. So to answer your question, yes, I can think of something more demeaning, demoralizing, dis-incentivizing, and downright racist. I won't argue that affirmative action is a perfect, and without flaws. I think it's a patchwork solution to a problem that a lot of people think doesn't exist anymore.

 

So I'll offer my own (admittedly biased) interpretation...

 

"Hey, minorities. We know many of you have historically been excluded from many career and job opportunities simply because of the color of your skin. We're attempting to right that wrong. So we are going to enact policy to try ensure firms don't continue discriminatory hiring practices. In essence: we understand that for many minorities, the job market is slanted against you, so we're are offering a hand up to level the playing field is some small way."

 

I'm also interested in damage this has done to "minorities" also. I see it can't be measure apparently, but can it be described?

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I must add that I was raised on Ultraman, Speed Racer, Johnny Sokko, Marine Boy, Space Giants,Kimba, and Battle Of the Planets. What a time for great TV!!!

 

Yeah me too, great stuff.

 

I'm half Asian and half White and was born in Asia and I think the new Hulk is Lame, so does that make me half a racist?

 

I guess I don't understand how anyone could think something is lame before they know what it is.

 

The reason racism was brought up is due to several comments and inflections made by various people. I did quote the o.p. originally but edited it out after I calmed down. I'm white and my wife is hispanic. I live in colorado which is an amazingly progressive state, yet I still see racism. And to see people casting stones at things simply because they have changed race or gender is wrong. But that was my point. If your only reason that 'this is bad' is because 'he's not a white guy anymore' then yea, that's racist.

 

Interesting. Racism as it currently exists in the US is mostly because of progressivism, not in spite of it.

 

"This is bad" because it's an unnecessary change, made...by admission...to "get rid of homogeneity that isn't real."

 

Oh really....?

 

Homogeneity is one of the foundations of human civilization. "Like attracts like" and what not. Forced diversity for the sake of diversity has never worked, and never will. It's a progressive pipe dream.

 

Everyone should be free to pursue whatever degree of diversity....or homogeneity...they think is appropriate for them, and not be shamed for choosing one side, the other, or any degree in between.

 

THAT is genuine equality.

 

Is it wrong to only be interested in Thor because he's a white male....?

 

Is it wrong to only be interested in Storm because she's a black female...?

 

Can't people be free to say "Hey, I liked Hulk as a white (or green, or grey) male; I have no interest in the character if he's not a while (or green or grey) male"...? Can't people be free to say "Hey, I liked Storm as a black female; I have no interest in the character if she's not a black female"....?

 

Aren't they customers, too? Don't their opinions matter as much as anyone else's?

 

Or must they be shamed by the "diversity" crowd into accepting something they just don't like, because it's "the right thing to do"...? Maybe, if they were free to give the changes a chance, instead of being hit over the head with the threat of being called a racist, sexist, etc...they might find they actually like Colossus being a half-Hispanic, half-Inuit female dwarf from Miami.

 

 

Or not.

 

But being free to make that decision is what really matters, and "change for the sake of change" is pandering and just a little more than slightly racist. Respecting these characters isn't a terrible thing.

 

(And, by the way...Len Wein managed to create a black, female lead super heroine out of nothing....in 1975. If he could do it, anybody can.)