Is there any OA dealer you won’t do business with?

[Meeley Man]

All of this, of course, has nothing to do with the questionable practices of misrepresentation, which I think is a far more relevant topic for the thread.

 

This is the only thing you've said I agree with. Yes, let us keep this on the topic.

 

Re-read what I wrote and the very first sentence was a flatly incorrect definition. I got on a train of thought thinking through market transactions but not actually the concept of fair value. It's been revised - sorry for being an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. (thumbs u

 

Multitasking isn't for me

 

No thanks. As I said, I'm not interested in this game. It's not the reason for the topic and I simply will not indulge on that anymore. I've agreed to disagree with folks. If that's not good enough for some, it says more about them, than it ever will me.

 

And I never thought you an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. I just didn't agree with your assertions. It's not the end of the universe or anything. At least you didn't personally insult me, because I didn't. That hasn't always been the case around here.

[Lucky Baru]

 

So far, the only dealers who seem to have been named here are Richard Rae and the Donnellys. Both of whom are well known for their unscrupulous business tactics. Is there anyone else, whom folks would have the courage to name, besides them? After all, isn't the point of a post like this to actually give the names, so folks can know who they should be wary of dealing with?

 

The point of this thread isn't necessarily to actually name names- if thats what it truly was the thread starter should have named names him/herself (they didn't).

 

Being treated rudely by a dealer was a new experience. After all, if they treated enough potential buyers they way I was treated they wouldn't be in business for too long. At the same time, if that dealer was the only avenue for a certain piece and/or artist I guess they could treat people anyway they wanted to treat them. They would know the road to obtain whatever page/artist work moves through them. Maybe that is why I was treated the way I was treated. Based upon my experience, I will take my business to other dealers and not make purchases through the dealer I was writing about in my post.

 

If any poster wanted to name a dealer that was OK and if they didn't that was OK. Unlike other individuals that post on internet boards I don't have enough of an ego to believe that a thread/comment I start/make causes any demands on the reader. I thought I would relay that experience, and see if others had been treated "badly" by any dealer(s) in the community. I guess, I was attempting to see if my experience was out of the norm.

[vodou]

How you are treated by dealers tends to be a self-healing process. Nobody can take the pain forever.

 

I think when we all started we experienced a mix of good and bad experiences (and sometimes the 'bad' we didn't realize till later with hobby maturity how screwed or mistreated we actually were). The bad news is, in the beginning, the ratio of bad:good tends to be pretty high. I write 'self-healing' because what you are doing, we all have done (for the most part), over time moved to doing more business with those that treat us right or less/no business with the others. James thinks the bad guys stay in business because many art fans pick personal lust over morals/values. I'm not sure about that. It may be that most of those sales are occurring when new blood enters or 'in kind' trades among dealers with equally 'hot' stock (vs. outright cash sales at stupid numbers).

 

Anyway, I think those that do not make this transition go broke or leave the hobby in disgust (actually probably the first, then the second, in that order). Anybody that's been around for ten or more years can remember some folks that came up with them and bought like mad, anything and everything they could afford (price, not value here) that hit their button and then -poof- were gone just that fast again. If you kept in touch (I did with some), you'd find many of those folks got burned hard, mistreated, etc by the flea market huckster style sellers...cash 'n carry, no returns, tough sht etc etc. (BTW, a lot of those dealers have come and gone too or -I guess?- trade deep underground - I don't see them around any more. Eff 'em, that's a good thing. What goes around comes around.)

 

As long as more people (or more money) is entering the hobby than leaving, this effect isn't readily apparent to most...but the Donnelly Brothers...they have definitely queered some collectors right back out right quick. It's pretty juvenile and slimy actually, working that hard to (over)max out the single sale (knowing in doing so you'll likely never see that customer again) but it's a free market. On the plus side there is a fair bit of reward to be had for doing due diligence and respecting caveat emptor.

[AnkurJ]

I will usually give someone a couple of tries, but if they are being rude each time, we are done.

This happened with specific artists and dealers. I'm sure they have a steady flow of customers so it doesn't matter if they're friendly. Some I had a bad initial experience with which improved as time moved on, specifically Albert Moy and Metropolis. Then you have dealers who are always friendly whether you buy from them or not such as Scott Eder and Jim Warden. So there is a good mix of dealers out there. But one thing is for sure, just because a price is higher than we want to pay doesn't mean it's personal.

[Lucky Baru]

But one thing is for sure, just because a price is higher than we want to pay doesn't mean it's personal.

 

Heck, a lot of the pages I desire are out of my budget. I just pick-up pages that are done by the artist I enjoy that don't have the current market value as those that seem to be out of reach. That way I get a page I enjoy and by an artist I want in my collection but at a price that doesn't cause my wife to question why she married me....

 

 

[Meeley Man]

If any poster wanted to name a dealer that was OK and if they didn't that was OK. Unlike other individuals that post on internet boards I don't have enough of an ego to believe that a thread/comment I start/make causes any demands on the reader. I thought I would relay that experience, and see if others had been treated "badly" by any dealer(s) in the community. I guess, I was attempting to see if my experience was out of the norm.

 

Well, first off, I'm sorry if I misread your intentions. Again, going by the title of the thread, it would seem to say that "naming names" is important. After all, how can we know who the bad dealer is, if no one says the name? If I misread that, I apologize.

 

Second, I wouldn't say your experience is "the norm," but it isn't a rare or infrequent happenstance, either. It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens often enough that you need to be wary. Hopefully, some of the people named here will help you in knowing more of those dealers to stay away from or not to implicitly trust. I really do think that the naming of names is important, when dealer (or buyers) cross certain moral and ethical lines. Part of being in a community, is helping to provide information like this, so that the people of it can better protect themselves from scam artists and unscrupulous individuals.

 

Lastly, I want to comment on something vodou said about me. Yes, I do think that too many collectors in this hobby do enable bad dealers to commit these kinds of acts, because they put art lust over ethics too often. I've seen the stories of people, who tell of the horrid they went through with a dealer (or even another collector), just to obtain a piece of art. As if to say crawling over that figurative mile of broken glass and puke on their bellies was worth it, because they got what they wanted in the end. Heck someone on this thread said their was a dealer they had a personal problem with, but if they had some art they wanted, they'd deal with them. And that's fine, for what it is. But it does play right into the hands of the type of people we should be exposing on threads like this. When you act the part of a "junkie," is it really a surprise when you get treated like one?

 

I don't know, maybe it's just me and how I was raised. My parents taught me that no mere item or object, is worth surrendering my dignity to someone else. And the kind of dealers we are talking about here thrive on people who do so. As I said, I will always side with putting ethics before art, both as a collector and as an art rep. I always do a square deal with people. I always do all I can to make sure all parties are happy with the final transaction. I even follow up with buyers, just to be sure. If you aren't going to do good business, then IMO, you shouldn't do ANY business. But sadly, it seems my business ethics don't count for much with a lot of collectors (or that's the impression I've been given over the years). Until those kind of mentalities change. Until people aren't afraid of speaking up about bad dealers, for fear of "missing out" on a piece of art they might someday want from them, things will be as they are now. The scammers and unscrupulous types will always have that edge over the community. Newbies will get taken advantage of, because experienced collectors are too scared or selfish to do what they know is right. And the bad business dealings within the hobby will continue.

 

I'm only one guy, who sells on behalf of a few artists. I do what I can to try and make this hobby and business better, but I can only do so much. The old adage "you get the government you deserve," also holds true for this community. So, if there are dealers who treat buyers like dirt and are still around to do so, it's because the community has allowed them to get away with it. They put art before ethics. You get the hobby you deserve. And stories like yours, and the others found here and elsewhere, will continue. It's just the way it will be, until the community decides to change their behavior which enables those types to flourish and remain.

[Lucky Baru]

If any poster wanted to name a dealer that was OK and if they didn't that was OK. Unlike other individuals that post on internet boards I don't have enough of an ego to believe that a thread/comment I start/make causes any demands on the reader. I thought I would relay that experience, and see if others had been treated "badly" by any dealer(s) in the community. I guess, I was attempting to see if my experience was out of the norm.

 

Well, first off, I'm sorry if I misread your intentions. Again, going by the title of the thread, it would seem to say that "naming names" is important. After all, how can we know who the bad dealer is, if no one says the name? If I misread that, I apologize.

 

Second, I wouldn't say your experience is "the norm," but it isn't a rare or infrequent happenstance, either. It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens often enough that you need to be wary. Hopefully, some of the people named here will help you in knowing more of those dealers to stay away from or not to implicitly trust. I really do think that the naming of names is important, when dealer (or buyers) cross certain moral and ethical lines. Part of being in a community, is helping to provide information like this, so that the people of it can better protect themselves from scam artists and unscrupulous individuals.

 

Lastly, I want to comment on something vodou said about me. Yes, I do think that too many collectors in this hobby do enable bad dealers to commit these kinds of acts, because they put art lust over ethics too often. I've seen the stories of people, who tell of the horrid they went through with a dealer (or even another collector), just to obtain a piece of art. As if to say crawling over that figurative mile of broken glass and puke on their bellies was worth it, because they got what they wanted in the end. Heck someone on this thread said their was a dealer they had a personal problem with, but if they had some art they wanted, they'd deal with them. And that's fine, for what it is. But it does play right into the hands of the type of people we should be exposing on threads like this. When you act the part of a "junkie," is it really a surprise when you get treated like one?

 

I don't know, maybe it's just me and how I was raised. My parents taught me that no mere item or object, is worth surrendering my dignity to someone else. And the kind of dealers we are talking about here thrive on people who do so. As I said, I will always side with putting ethics before art, both as a collector and as an art rep. I always do a square deal with people. I always do all I can to make sure all parties are happy with the final transaction. I even follow up with buyers, just to be sure. If you aren't going to do good business, then IMO, you shouldn't do ANY business. But sadly, it seems my business ethics don't count for much with a lot of collectors (or that's the impression I've been given over the years). Until those kind of mentalities change. Until people aren't afraid of speaking up about bad dealers, for fear of "missing out" on a piece of art they might someday want from them, things will be as they are now. The scammers and unscrupulous types will always have that edge over the community. Newbies will get taken advantage of, because experienced collectors are too scared or selfish to do what they know is right. And the bad business dealings within the hobby will continue.

 

I'm only one guy, who sells on behalf of a few artists. I do what I can to try and make this hobby and business better, but I can only do so much. The old adage "you get the government you deserve," also holds true for this community. So, if there are dealers who treat buyers like dirt and are still around to do so, it's because the community has allowed them to get away with it. They put art before ethics. You get the hobby you deserve. And stories like yours, and the others found here and elsewhere, will continue. It's just the way it will be, until the community decides to change their behavior which enables those types to flourish and remain.

 

I tried to send you a PM but you don't accept them. What artist do you rep?

 

I agree with your post. Outside of my real job I run a small company. We sent out around 20,000 packages last year. I purchase items from our competitors to see their shipping times, how they pack, and ship items. It amazes me just how poorly they do things compared to our business model's way of doing it. It seems in today's world customer's expectations are pretty low.

[dem1138]

I think another component of this is that this is a public message board. And while there are many "lurkers" who could add volumes to this discussion, they won't. But at conventions, private gatherings, dinners, phone calls, etc. the stories do get told.

Almost every collector I know, whether they've been around for one month or four decades, has at least one story of getting burned either by a fellow collector, dealer, or both. Its unfortunately a part of this hobby. And I've certainly seen collectors rush in and rush out just as fast due to their negative experiences with dealers and collectors. It definitely insulates the hobby, but in the end, the major dealers don't change their behaviors, so they must want it that way. And collectors have been around for decades and not much has changed there either, so they must be okay with it too.

There's the ideal of what the hobby could be and the reality of what the hobby is. Either it's a true passion of yours, and you survive the good with the bad, or its not and you move on. No one's obligated to participate in this hobby and there are plenty of avenues to sell if you decide that you're done with it. Or you can put everything away in your closet for 20 years and the hobby will still be here when/if you decide to return. But everyone's free to participate or exit at any time.

There are certainly plenty of other facets of the hobby to enjoy if this one isn't it for you.

[Peter G]

I think another component of this is that this is a public message board. And while there are many "lurkers" who could add volumes to this discussion, they won't. But at conventions, private gatherings, dinners, phone calls, etc. the stories do get told.

Almost every collector I know, whether they've been around for one month or four decades, has at least one story of getting burned either by a fellow collector, dealer, or both. Its unfortunately a part of this hobby. And I've certainly seen collectors rush in and rush out just as fast due to their negative experiences with dealers and collectors. It definitely insulates the hobby, but in the end, the major dealers don't change their behaviors, so they must want it that way. And collectors have been around for decades and not much has changed there either, so they must be okay with it too.

There's the ideal of what the hobby could be and the reality of what the hobby is. Either it's a true passion of yours, and you survive the good with the bad, or its not and you move on. No one's obligated to participate in this hobby and there are plenty of avenues to sell if you decide that you're done with it. Or you can put everything away in your closet for 20 years and the hobby will still be here when/if you decide to return. But everyone's free to participate or exit at any time.

There are certainly plenty of other facets of the hobby to enjoy if this one isn't it for you.

 

well said

[Lucky Baru]

I think another component of this is that this is a public message board. And while there are many "lurkers" who could add volumes to this discussion, they won't. But at conventions, private gatherings, dinners, phone calls, etc. the stories do get told.

Almost every collector I know, whether they've been around for one month or four decades, has at least one story of getting burned either by a fellow collector, dealer, or both. Its unfortunately a part of this hobby. And I've certainly seen collectors rush in and rush out just as fast due to their negative experiences with dealers and collectors. It definitely insulates the hobby, but in the end, the major dealers don't change their behaviors, so they must want it that way. And collectors have been around for decades and not much has changed there either, so they must be okay with it too.

There's the ideal of what the hobby could be and the reality of what the hobby is. Either it's a true passion of yours, and you survive the good with the bad, or its not and you move on. No one's obligated to participate in this hobby and there are plenty of avenues to sell if you decide that you're done with it. Or you can put everything away in your closet for 20 years and the hobby will still be here when/if you decide to return. But everyone's free to participate or exit at any time.

There are certainly plenty of other facets of the hobby to enjoy if this one isn't it for you.

 

That's interesting. From your post it seems that bad experiences and getting burned are ingrained in the hobby. Since 95% of my pages have been purchased directly from the artist, at a convention, or from one of the big auction houses I've never had a negative experience until recently. Gotta love the internet. Also, it seems that people are content with the status quo as no one voices these experiences except in "dark alleyways" when one collect runs into another one as they pass the information...Hush, Hush.....

[Peter G]

I think another component of this is that this is a public message board. And while there are many "lurkers" who could add volumes to this discussion, they won't. But at conventions, private gatherings, dinners, phone calls, etc. the stories do get told.

Almost every collector I know, whether they've been around for one month or four decades, has at least one story of getting burned either by a fellow collector, dealer, or both. Its unfortunately a part of this hobby. And I've certainly seen collectors rush in and rush out just as fast due to their negative experiences with dealers and collectors. It definitely insulates the hobby, but in the end, the major dealers don't change their behaviors, so they must want it that way. And collectors have been around for decades and not much has changed there either, so they must be okay with it too.

There's the ideal of what the hobby could be and the reality of what the hobby is. Either it's a true passion of yours, and you survive the good with the bad, or its not and you move on. No one's obligated to participate in this hobby and there are plenty of avenues to sell if you decide that you're done with it. Or you can put everything away in your closet for 20 years and the hobby will still be here when/if you decide to return. But everyone's free to participate or exit at any time.

There are certainly plenty of other facets of the hobby to enjoy if this one isn't it for you.

 

That's interesting. From your post it seems that bad experiences and getting burned are ingrained in the hobby. Since 95% of my pages have been purchased directly from the artist, at a convention, or from one of the big auction houses I've never had a negative experience until recently. Gotta love the internet. Also, it seems that people are content with the status quo as no one voices these experiences except in "dark alleyways" when one collect runs into another one as they pass the information...Hush, Hush.....

 

The general rule is Caveat Emptor

 

With exception of outright fraud which is a different topic entirely, most buyers should become educated before laying out large sums of money

 

Especially when based on a price by a dealer that is deemed to be "fair" when such a party CLEARLY has a conflict of interest

[Lucky Baru]

 

Especially when based on a price by a dealer that is deemed to be "fair" when such a party CLEARLY has a conflict of interest

 

I'm lost. What do you mean by the above.

[Peter G]

 

Especially when based on a price by a dealer that is deemed to be "fair" when such a party CLEARLY has a conflict of interest

 

I'm lost. What do you mean by the above.

 

Sorry for my ambiguity in my thought. I was rushing a bit when I wrote it.

 

What I meant by that is that when a person buys a piece of art, they should not rely on the seller's asking price as being representative of the fair market value. A dealer has a vested interest to "over price" their wares. There is an inherent conflict of interest between buyer/seller interests. A seller is not the same as a broker of an auction house in which fair market value is determined at auction.

 

Not even sure if you were referring to "being burnt" by dealers as meaning the above or if you were actually referring to actual FRAUD committed by a dealer, which is a completely different thing.

 

Does what I am saying make sense now ?

[Bronty]

Well dealers aren't there to sell cheap or even fair, they are there to get the most they can. They aren't a super market and we should have no expectation of "fair" prices. We should have expectation of fair treatment (representations, honesty and the like) however

[Peter G]

Well dealers aren't there to sell cheap or even fair, they are there to get the most they can. They aren't a super market and we should have no expectation of "fair" prices. We should have expectation of fair treatment (representations, honesty and the like) however

 

Exactly !

 

Not sure what being "burnt" means

[Meeley Man]

 

I tried to send you a PM but you don't accept them. What artist do you rep?

 

I agree with your post. Outside of my real job I run a small company. We sent out around 20,000 packages last year. I purchase items from our competitors to see their shipping times, how they pack, and ship items. It amazes me just how poorly they do things compared to our business model's way of doing it. It seems in today's world customer's expectations are pretty low.

 

Currently, I'm working with Mike Harris, Bill Maus, Gerry Acerno, Richard Moore, and Mike Vosburg. Stop by my art gallery and check out what I have for sale from them. Who knows, you might even find something you like. And I can promise you, you will get a square and fair deal.

 

http://www.comicartshop.com/ComicArtShopsByCat.asp?GCat=3287

[jimjum12]

Well dealers aren't there to sell cheap or even fair, they are there to get the most they can. They aren't a super market and we should have no expectation of "fair" prices. We should have expectation of fair treatment (representations, honesty and the like) however

 

Exactly !

 

Not sure what being "burnt" means

 

..... with OA, each item is "unique" so the concept of fair market value seems difficult to apply. All one might have for reference in that regard is the record of a past sale.... and in a world where the prices of even the most mundane things appear to be continually rising, to expect stasis in this type of scenario is naïve. If a piece is "worth" it, we make the sacrifice. If not, we move on. Customer service, on the other hand, is an area where expectation is the norm. I actually find value in denying my patronage to a *spoon*.... but that's me. I'm not a person who is accustomed to having everything I want, so in my case, "disconnect" may be easier than for others. One thing I have learned is that the "best" often costs the most and sticker shock is part of the territory. With OA, the dealer will not be able to secure another after it is sold, so restocking becomes challenging, and costly. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[vodou]

..... with OA, each item is "unique" so the concept of fair market value seems difficult to apply. All one might have for reference in that regard is the record of a past sale...

Well I'm going to disagree with this. Each (comic)OA item is unique no more than any single family home is. That's a market where comp are a way of life, so too with comic art. Absolutely there are standout singular pieces exceptions but most piece fit a generic bill of artist, title/character, desirability. Hard to handicap GL76 cover but not so hard a Neal Adams Batman panel page with lots of in-costume action. It's pure marketing that every piece is unique (they are, but most ready 'n willing collectors are not looking for that EXACT piece!)

[jimjum12]

You can disagree that each page is unique.... but that will not make it so. New single family homes are, however, an interesting comparison. There is a LOT of availability with each (OA and homes....), but when it comes down to the one a person really wants, the price can become very subjective..... especially when competition comes into play. My point was more geared towards the concept of FMV rather than the definition of "unique"..... but I do see your point. "A" Neil Adams Batman page is a good example for debate, but even there, I find the "one size fits all" argument to be only partially applicable to the topic of FMV. Likewise for a situation like Ditko ASM pages. My statement in my previous post probably was made under the assumption that the hypothetical "bad" dealer was applying an aggressive price to a piece that was actually noteworthy as opposed to "drek"...... so that, in itself, was shortsighted of me. Either way, the page, for example, by Kirby with the Silver Surfer at a mountain summit when the climbers arrive, which sold several years ago at HA for a very strong (at the time) price, is hardly a page that is interchangeable with any other Surfer page..... but that's my take..... and why the "uniqueness" of a page can't always be easily dismissed. But you may not care for Kirby, or the Surfer, at all.... which to me illustrates the aspect of uniqueness with a little more clarity. How would one even arrive at FMV for something like that GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[AKA Rick]

I think nobody wants to burn bridges and name names to answer this question since it truly is very subjective in most cases.

 

You hear high praises for some sellers then others complain about that same seller's bedside manners, whether it's being short and gruff, not responding quick enough, inflexible in negotiating pricing, not user friendly website navigation, lack of new material or material of interest or frequency of updates, etc.

 

Those dealers who are truly thieves don't last long and are here today, gone tomorrow, so there's really no dealers that anyone should listen to other folks opinions on as it relates to "don't do business with" - - So those are the names you're probably looking to be named.

 

Every dealer who advertises on the CAF website are trustworthy in terms of completing the deals with legitimate merchandise and reliable sturdy packaging. Everyone you hear about on the CGC boards are also trustworthy, even Coolines, despite people not liking their approach, if/when you strike a deal it does go through without incident. I've never been "ripped off" from any dealer of O.A. in any way and I've dealt with over a dozen of 'em.