A Defense of Kirby's 4th World Series

[Aman619]

Good points. Devil Dinosaur is a very baffling comic to me cause it doesn't really seem to fit in anywhere else and seems to be far and away worse than anything else he did conceptually, artistically, and especially it had the worst writing he did in my opinion. Maybe it was just purposefully aimed at a younger audience? Pure speculation on my part, but maybe after seeing his attempts to reach a higher level audience fail, he resigned himself to writing for the younger audiences that he had been so successful with. In a sense, then, this would be an example of Kirby seeing his own limitations.

That being said, remember, I am a Kirby fan, but I really can't say anything good about that comic...

Joe

 

Marvel was trying to sell Devil Dinosaur as a Saturday morning cartoon show, so it did shoot for a younger audience....

 

I was actually going to guess that!! Is it true? Cause by then Kirby was making most of his income working for TV and animation, right?

and Devil Dinosaur never seemed very Kirby

 

[Zonker]

Can we all agree that Kirbys later Bronze work was not up to par and not particularly brilliant? That as he aged,his work declined,even if we can't agree as to when the decline started?

 

For my part, I think this is a very accurate statement. The points of contention that remain seem to be...

 

1) what the quality of his early bronze work with DC is, and

 

2) the tone of our discussion, which, I feel, should be more civil overall.

 

Joe

 

[awe4one]

Nice to see some much has been covered since I last left this thread...

 

BJ...you're steadfastly trying to defend titles that are bad in my opinion. And his work only got progressively worse afterwards. Just because Fourth World may have been better than Devil Dinosaur isn't really a ringing endorsement to the quality of those stories. It also points collectors not familiar with Kirby to inferior examples of his work overall. If I looked at Fourth World with fresh eyes I'd think you all are were pretty whacked and wouldn't go out of my way to pick up another...

 

EDITED: It didn't make much sense before...that what I get for posting in a hurry first thing in the morning...

 

Jim

[Fan4Fan]

Something just occurred to me while reading this thread. Jack Kirby's legacy is in danger with future collectors because of his 70s output. Let me explain...

 

I grew up with Kirby's 70s work and didn't much care for him. In fact, I considered him extremely overrated. His writing was cr@p, his characters blocky, and his women unattractive. This includes the 60s FF reprints. After seeing his mediocre new work, his 60s work seemed just more of the same. Not a fair analogy but as a kid there were many comics, to include my much loved Buscema FF run every month, that having to wade through Kirby's stuff wasn't really something I had to do to get my comics fix. It wasn't until I re-entered comics in the mid-80s, almost a decade removed from Kirby and with cash in hand to buy back issues of my favorite FF comics, that I learned to appreciate what Kirby brought to the Marvel Age of comics. Regardless, Kirby's art is an acquired taste and not quickly accessable.

 

Interesting notion that Kirby's legacy might be forgotten...

 

I started collecting in the mid-1970's and eagerly sought out Kirby's work (both in back issue FF and Captain America as well as the then-current reprints). This may have been largely due to Rich Buckler in full-on Kirby-mode being the artist on FF at the time.

 

Interestingly, I never really liked Buscema's FF until very recently and thought it inferior.

 

Now we are two decades later...HG 60s Marvels are priced outside the normal collector's pocketbook. Their main access to Kirby is his 70s work. And it's a large body of work as well. When Kirby went to DC it was the "Kirby Age of Comics!" When he went back to Marvel it was "Kirby Returns!". And all these hyped comics are generally awful. Collectors are going to look at these and base his whole career on this work. Again, it's the volume of work that'll be his undoing. It not just a title or two, it's near 100+ comics.

 

...

 

Kirby's 70s output on the otherhand will be out there for decades and affordable to the common collector. This is what collectors will base Kirby's legacy on and sadly will do so without seeing his best work...

 

I was all psyched for Kirby's return to Marvel and eagerly bought the Captain America MadBomb arc and remember enjoying it immensely. I have not read it since (tho' I do have the recent trade sitting at home waiting for me), so I don't know how well it has aged. I believe noted Kirby authority Mark Evanier disliked the arc immensely, but found a depth and complexity he had missed when he reread it years later.

 

I can't comment on the Fourth World stuff, as I have never been interested in cosmic storylines. However, that may be changing since I am getting into Thor (thanks to Kirby) and may be more open to that genre in the future.

 

Did Kirby write the first few issues of Challengers of the Unknown? Comics.org indicates that that might be the case, but I just discovered this Fantastic Four precursor so I am obviously not completely up-to-date on the King's works. In any event, these are generally regarded as pretty good Silver Age comics, no?

 

Thanks,

Fan4Fan

[MikeS]

Good points. Devil Dinosaur is a very baffling comic to me cause it doesn't really seem to fit in anywhere else and seems to be far and away worse than anything else he did conceptually, artistically, and especially it had the worst writing he did in my opinion. Maybe it was just purposefully aimed at a younger audience? Pure speculation on my part, but maybe after seeing his attempts to reach a higher level audience fail, he resigned himself to writing for the younger audiences that he had been so successful with. In a sense, then, this would be an example of Kirby seeing his own limitations.

That being said, remember, I am a Kirby fan, but I really can't say anything good about that comic...

Joe

 

Marvel was trying to sell Devil Dinosaur as a Saturday morning cartoon show, so it did shoot for a younger audience....

 

I was actually going to guess that!! Is it true? Cause by then Kirby was making most of his income working for TV and animation, right?

and Devil Dinosaur never seemed very Kirby

I'm almost done with the book Tales to Astonish: Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and the American Comic Book Revolution and it does state that Marvel was hoping to sell Devil Dinosaur as a Saturday morning cartoon..... Yeah, he had been doing work on Thundarr and a few other cartoons.

[Silver]

This may be

 

But Kamandi is one of my all time favorite 70's series

[awe4one]

This may be

 

But Kamandi is one of my all time favorite 70's series

 

No...not off-topic at all...

 

I've already said I liked the first 10 or so issues of Kamandi. Are they the greatest comics of the early 70s? Lord No. But they were decent and the best of Kirby DC output in my opinion...

 

But then again...I'm a huge Planet of the Apes fan which may explain the attraction...

 

Jim

[Fan4Fan]

I was all psyched for Kirby's return to Marvel and eagerly bought the Captain America MadBomb arc and remember enjoying it immensely. I have not read it since (tho' I do have the recent trade sitting at home waiting for me), so I don't know how well it has aged. I believe noted Kirby authority Mark Evanier disliked the arc immensely, but found a depth and complexity he had missed when he reread it years later.

 

Well, I finally got around to reading this, and - hoo boy! - what kind of stupid kid was I?

 

The dialog was not great, and the art was less than stellar Kirby.

 

Needless to say, the trade and I have parted ways.

 

This is not to condemn Kirby's earlier work which I still really like. Even some of the earlier all-Kirby comics (eg. Amazing Adventures) are loads better than this Cap stuff...

[topofthetotem]

Well being that Kirby was the most prolific creator in all of comic history he is entilted to a stinker or two!

Cut the guy some slack and don't armchair quarterback the artistic direction/style he was taking 20-30 yrs ago.

I'm sure there werere alot of the whiteman afro , bellbottom pant ,Miami vice dressing collectors back in the day that are here second guessing Kirby!

[Fan4Fan]

Well being that Kirby was the most prolific creator in all of comic history he is entilted to a stinker or two!

Cut the guy some slack and don't armchair quarterback the artistic direction/style he was taking 20-30 yrs ago.

I'm sure there werere alot of the whiteman afro , bellbottom pant ,Miami vice dressing collectors back in the day that are here second guessing Kirby!

 

I only wore bellbottoms after they went out of style.

 

And if you look at my earlier post (and even the most recent), I have a lot of respect for Kirby and really like his Silver Age stuff.

 

I still like (prefer) a lot of what was produced in the 1970's, so it is not like I am dissing the entire era.

 

I remember looking forward to Kirby getting back on Cap (especially after Robbins destroyed the end of the Englehart run) and - as a kid - looked forward to every issue.

 

Of course, I also looked forward to Marvel Two-In-One and Marvel Team-Up, too.

[bigfiver69]

This may be but as a hardcore collector of DC war (especially bronze) Kirby's work on Our Fighting Forces is a terrific change of pace, and a definite highlight of that genre.

 

It's truly a love it/hate it run, but I love it - action packed, lots of storytelling. A lot of Kirby superhero fans have long ignored that work, so if anyone thinks Kirby was past it in 1975, take a look at those books. They're a joy.

 

Shep

[tth2]

I remember looking forward to Kirby getting back on Cap (especially after Robbins destroyed the end of the Englehart run) and - as a kid - looked forward to every issue.

I did too, and shared your distaste for Frank Robbins' horrific run. But my hopes for Kirby were soon dashed. Even as 12-year olds, my friends and I would poke fun at Kirby's work, and also compare it to his SA work and wonder what had happened to him.

[tth2]

This may be but as a hardcore collector of DC war (especially bronze) Kirby's work on Our Fighting Forces is a terrific change of pace, and a definite highlight of that genre.

 

It's truly a love it/hate it run, but I love it - action packed, lots of storytelling. A lot of Kirby superhero fans have long ignored that work, so if anyone thinks Kirby was past it in 1975, take a look at those books. They're a joy.

 

Shep

Sorry Shep, but you'll have to put me in the "hate it" camp. I remember reading a couple of Kirby's issues on the Losers as a 12-year old or so and thinking they were some of the worst written, and worst drawn, comics I had ever read.

[bigfiver69]

This may be but as a hardcore collector of DC war (especially bronze) Kirby's work on Our Fighting Forces is a terrific change of pace, and a definite highlight of that genre.

 

It's truly a love it/hate it run, but I love it - action packed, lots of storytelling. A lot of Kirby superhero fans have long ignored that work, so if anyone thinks Kirby was past it in 1975, take a look at those books. They're a joy.

 

Shep

Sorry Shep, but you'll have to put me in the "hate it" camp. I remember reading a couple of Kirby's issues on the Losers as a 12-year old or so and thinking they were some of the worst written, and worst drawn, comics I had ever read.

 

No question - they are polarizing. Of just about any topic, DC war-wise, most big five fans find easy agreement - The greatness of Heath, Kubert, Toth, Kanigher, Goodwin, etc.... but man, those handful of Kirby books have created a great divide.

 

There are a couple of lousy issues in the Kirby run to be sure, but OFF #153 'A Small Place in Hell' is one of the most action packed stories that ever appeared in DC war, imho.

 

I will readily admit part of my love of those books is the residue of childhood... I read them as a kid, and got a big thrill from them. Some of that carries over, I'm sure. Sure am glad they never put Kirby on Sgt. Rock!

 

Shep

[Fan4Fan]

I remember looking forward to Kirby getting back on Cap (especially after Robbins destroyed the end of the Englehart run) and - as a kid - looked forward to every issue.

I did too, and shared your distaste for Frank Robbins' horrific run. But my hopes for Kirby were soon dashed. Even as 12-year olds, my friends and I would poke fun at Kirby's work, and also compare it to his SA work and wonder what had happened to him.

 

Well, I was the only one of my group of friends that ever read Cap with any regularity to begin with. We each had our character (or characters) of expertise, so we needed to keep up regardless.

 

I do recall dropping Cap with #200, so I must have become dissatisfied for some reason, but the sands of time have buried the reasons for my action.

[awe4one]

I remember looking forward to Kirby getting back on Cap (especially after Robbins destroyed the end of the Englehart run) and - as a kid - looked forward to every issue.

I did too, and shared your distaste for Frank Robbins' horrific run. But my hopes for Kirby were soon dashed. Even as 12-year olds, my friends and I would poke fun at Kirby's work, and also compare it to his SA work and wonder what had happened to him.

 

Well, I was the only one of my group of friends that ever read Cap with any regularity to begin with. We each had our character (or characters) of expertise, so we needed to keep up regardless.

 

I do recall dropping Cap with #200, so I must have become dissatisfied for some reason, but the sands of time have buried the reasons for my action.

 

As a kid I couldn't stand Kirby. No one drew FF better than Buscema in my eyes (I thought the Marvel house art overall was the bomb as well as anything Neal Adams) and the work Kirby was doing at that time (both DC and his return to Marvel) was just plain awful. I was a regular reader of Cap and dropped it like a hot potato a couple issues into Kirby's run...

 

My dislike for Kirby, who I considered extremely overrated, continued until I reentered the hobby in the mid-80s. It wasn't until I bought FF Ann #6 and looked at his work with older eyes did I truly appreciate the artist. And let me tell you it was a revelation.

 

I still think his mid-70s work is terrible (his New Gods has moments) and a shadow of his Silver Age output...

 

Jim

[Fan4Fan]

FF Ann #6

 

[joe_collector]

Why in the world is this thread still going?

 

60's Kirby Rocked

 

70's Kirby Sucked

 

'nuff said.

[Fan4Fan]

I just wanted to report my important opinion of the Cap MadBomb arc.

 

Now that I have done so, the thread may be closed.

 

[divad]

Why in the world is this thread still going?

 

Jim's on a soapbox . . .