Why don't dealers have all high-value comics graded?

[tth2]

certainly here in the UK, the majority of buyers will not touch a CGC graded book with a ten foot pole. Yes, a number of them collect really high grade books, but want them raw. I have to keep a stock of both CGC and unslabbed books in high grade to satisfy demand for both.

Well, the Vault (and I assume that a majority of their customers are British) certainly seems to be doing booming business with slabbed books, and there seem to be plenty of UK buyers of slabbed books on eBay.

[tth2]

once you have concluded that there is no such thing as a raw 9.6 or 9.8 then you will have fewer disappointments

I don't agree with this. I think you can spot books that are of particularly exceptional structural quality that have a very good shot at 9.6 or 9.8. Having said that, I would still never put money on it!

[Flaming_Telepath]

certainly here in the UK, the majority of buyers will not touch a CGC graded book with a ten foot pole. Yes, a number of them collect really high grade books, but want them raw. I have to keep a stock of both CGC and unslabbed books in high grade to satisfy demand for both.

Well, the Vault (and I assume that a majority of their customers are British) certainly seems to be doing booming business with slabbed books, and there seem to be plenty of UK buyers of slabbed books on eBay.

 

Yes there is, but they are NOT representative of the vast majority of the UK market.

 

Here's a breakdown on some figures that will prove my point...

 

In excess of 80% of my stock is graded at VF or better, suggesting that my client base is 'high-end' (whatever that means these days).

 

However, despite the fact that I always carry a couple of hundred CGC books, only 8% of sales are slabbed items.

 

At the last London show, a long-standing client came and dropped $3,000+ on about 25 books, all of them VF/NM or better. Only one of them was CGC graded and he only bought that because it was a book he was desperate for (it completed a run) and I didn't have a raw copy.

 

Simply saying that there seems to be a lot of UK buyers taking slabbed items from Vault/eBay or wherever doesn't give you any indication of what the size of the overall market is.

 

And, by definition, I would anticipate that ANY means of purchase that involves mail order would have a higher proportion of CGC sales. However, we do good trade through the store and at shows (and through long-standing customers who trust our product and grading) which negates a lot of the benefits offered by slabbed books.

 

The UK market is very sceptical regarding the benefits of CGC for many, many reasons and there simply isn't the frenzy that you find in the US.

 

And besides, I think taking eBay and online sales as the only way of gauging the market somewhat blinkered. There's a big old world out there!

[tth2]

And besides, I think taking eBay and online sales as the only way of gauging the market somewhat blinkered. There's a big old world out there!

 

I wasn't saying it was a definitive barometer of the English market, I was just using it as an example to show that there is some market for CGC'd books amongst English buyers.

[Flaming_Telepath]

And besides, I think taking eBay and online sales as the only way of gauging the market somewhat blinkered. There's a big old world out there!

 

I wasn't saying it was a definitive barometer of the English market, I was just using it as an example to show that there is some market for CGC'd books amongst English buyers.

 

There better had be...I've got $50,000 tied up in the bloody things!

[tth2]

And besides, I think taking eBay and online sales as the only way of gauging the market somewhat blinkered. There's a big old world out there!

 

I wasn't saying it was a definitive barometer of the English market, I was just using it as an example to show that there is some market for CGC'd books amongst English buyers.

 

There better had be...I've got $50,000 tied up in the bloody things!

 

In your opinion, is this lack of popularity amongst your buyers the result of: (i) the price differential between slabbed and raw books (particularly for 9.2 and above), (ii) greater priority placed on touching and opening and reading books or (iii) plain old British obstinacy and unwillingness to embrace change?

[Flaming_Telepath]

And besides, I think taking eBay and online sales as the only way of gauging the market somewhat blinkered. There's a big old world out there!

 

I wasn't saying it was a definitive barometer of the English market, I was just using it as an example to show that there is some market for CGC'd books amongst English buyers.

 

There better had be...I've got $50,000 tied up in the bloody things!

 

In your opinion, is this lack of popularity amongst your buyers the result of: (i) the price differential between slabbed and raw books (particularly for 9.2 and above), (ii) greater priority placed on touching and opening and reading books or (iii) plain old British obstinacy and unwillingness to embrace change?

 

All three reasons are quoted endlessly by collectors with probably no. 2 shading it as most popular.

 

There are also three other reasons that are given with frequency...

 

(1) The storage issue. The things are just too bulky and take up roughly 3 times the space of a raw book. This is actually quite important when you consider that the average UK accommodation (house/apartment) is much smaller than your average US home space.

 

(2) A distrust of CGC grading. To many in the UK market, they are simply too lax when compared to strict adherance to OS. For example, corner creases. According to OS, these are not allowed in VF or better. But they are by CGC. I know it's not as simple as that, but the buying public generally doesn't want to hear it.

 

(3) A distrust of CGC's business practices, especially when it comes down to pressing/resubs for better grades/non-disclosure of grading criteria/etc.

 

So, all in all, quite a bit of whinging going on on this side of the Atlantic!

[sfilosa]

In excess of 80% of my stock is graded at VF or better, suggesting that my client base is 'high-end' (whatever that means these days).

 

However, despite the fact that I always carry a couple of hundred CGC books, only 8% of sales are slabbed items.

 

At the last London show, a long-standing client came and dropped $3,000+ on about 25 books, all of them VF/NM or better. Only one of them was CGC graded and he only bought that because it was a book he was desperate for (it completed a run) and I didn't have a raw copy.

 

Simply saying that there seems to be a lot of UK buyers taking slabbed items from Vault/eBay or wherever doesn't give you any indication of what the size of the overall market is.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how you came up with the conclusion that a "MAJORITY" of buyers in the UK won't touch a CGC book.

 

1) What percent of your inventories value is in CGC books and what type of books are they?

 

2) One customer buys $3K of raw books so he must be one of your MAJORITY collectors. But wait, he did buy a CGC book, because he was desperate. Well I guess he will touch a CGC with a ten foot pole.

 

Not trying to pick on you, but I just don't believe that there are many COLLECTORS that spend thousands of dollars on books, that won't buy a CGC book (assuming all factors are equal).

[the blob]

"(1) The storage issue. The things are just too bulky and take up roughly 3 times the space of a raw book. This is actually quite important when you consider that the average UK accommodation (house/apartment) is much smaller than your average US home space."

 

Just try fitting a wife and 10,000 comics in a one bedroom manhattan apartment.

[Flaming_Telepath]

In excess of 80% of my stock is graded at VF or better, suggesting that my client base is 'high-end' (whatever that means these days).

 

However, despite the fact that I always carry a couple of hundred CGC books, only 8% of sales are slabbed items.

 

At the last London show, a long-standing client came and dropped $3,000+ on about 25 books, all of them VF/NM or better. Only one of them was CGC graded and he only bought that because it was a book he was desperate for (it completed a run) and I didn't have a raw copy.

 

Simply saying that there seems to be a lot of UK buyers taking slabbed items from Vault/eBay or wherever doesn't give you any indication of what the size of the overall market is.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how you came up with the conclusion that a "MAJORITY" of buyers in the UK won't touch a CGC book.

 

1) What percent of your inventories value is in CGC books and what type of books are they?

 

2) One customer buys $3K of raw books so he must be one of your MAJORITY collectors. But wait, he did buy a CGC book, because he was desperate. Well I guess he will touch a CGC with a ten foot pole.

 

Not trying to pick on you, but I just don't believe that there are many COLLECTORS that spend thousands of dollars on books, that won't buy a CGC book (assuming all factors are equal).

 

And how long have you lived in the UK? Or more importantly, how long have you been a dealer here?

 

You wouldn't believe what I have to say, would you, as this goes totally against your own view of how to collect? Which, of course, you're entitled to but (a) it doesn't mean it's the only one valid and (b) it doesn't mean that it's shared by everyone else.

 

Why do COLLECTORS only spend thousands of dollars on a book? Can they not spend a few hundred and still be COLLECTORS? Can they not buy low grade by the bag-full and still remain COLLECTORS? Sorry, that's a digression, but how do you know what constitutes a COLLECTOR? Someone with exactly the same buying habits are yourself? And nobody else can be?

 

The point I was making was that the majority of buyers would prefer to buy unslabbed books, by a ratio of 3 to 1 as regards to my client base. Given that, as a percentage of inventory, I have more CGC books than any other dealer in the UK, that suggests my experience may be valid as a weathervane. You of course can tell me differently, which you no doubt will.

 

Regarding my inventory, I do not stock any CGC books below 8.0, and of the 220 currently in stock, only 6 grade below 8.5. They are restricted entirely to Silver/Bronze, ceasing at 1975. They represent 9% of total stock in item terms and 18% in retail price terms.

 

And regarding show sales (as those are the only figures I have to hand), here's detail of the last six London shows in terms of total number of books sold, followed by how many of those were CGC graded.

 

Feb '05 38 (2)

Dec '04 70 (2)

Nov '04 28 (3)

Oct '04 36 (1)

Sept '04 22 (2)

Aug '04 34 (1)

 

I don't know about you, but to my eye, there seems to be a pattern emerging?

 

Look, this was a rant, and yes, it was directed at you. My apologies, but I have had just about enough of a number of people (you being one of them) continually bowing at the feet of the almighty CGC, arguing every last point, attempting to put a positive spin on the unspinable, turning a blind eye to their faults, singing to the rooftops regarding their every success.

 

CGC is not the 'be all and end all' of this hobby/business. Neither are they infallable, nor 100% honest and open. They are a BUSINESS, here to make money at somebody else's expense (like all businesses) and, like any other business, they do some things well and other things abysmally.

 

Do I personally collect CGC books? No.

 

Do I stock CGC books and recommend them to customers? Yes.

 

Do I believe the resto check is invaluable on high ticket items? Absolutely.

 

Do I believe CGC's internal consistancy leaves much to be desired? Without doubt.

 

I just think that this board would be a lot better off if it were populated by more 'yes, but...' people, rather than a [#@$%!!!]-load of 'yes' or 'no' people. We need to get out of our respective 'camps' and sniff the air outside sometimes!

 

Which, I think, was my point to begin with.

 

And as I said, apologies to you, but this has been some time coming and I'm sorry that you 'got it'.

[Flaming_Telepath]

"(1) The storage issue. The things are just too bulky and take up roughly 3 times the space of a raw book. This is actually quite important when you consider that the average UK accommodation (house/apartment) is much smaller than your average US home space."

 

Just try fitting a wife and 10,000 comics in a one bedroom manhattan apartment.

 

Well, obviously the wife's gotta go...

[Foolkiller]

I have no trouble believing that there are plenty of people out there who will not buy CGC books, and would prefer their books raw. This board does not represent any sort of majority of collectors feelings about wanting all their books slabbed.

 

As I've said before, I'd almost universally prefer my books raw, but sometimes, the right book at the right price is in a slab, or perhaps you want the book to remain liquid for easy online sale. CGC is a wonderful tool that many, many collectors like and enjoy, but I don't believe that the majority of collectors want their collections CGC'd.

[sfilosa]

Why do COLLECTORS only spend thousands of dollars on a book? Can they not spend a few hundred and still be COLLECTORS? Can they not buy low grade by the bag-full and still remain COLLECTORS? Sorry, that's a digression, but how do you know what constitutes a COLLECTOR? Someone with exactly the same buying habits are yourself? And nobody else can be?

 

Now we're having some fun.

 

Points to clarify:

 

The topic of the post refers to HIGH VALUE COMICS.

Therefore, we are not talking about people who buy $1-100 comic books. They are absolutely collectors but, I WOULDN'T EXPECT this to be the client of CGC books.

 

From everything that I have read, many HG CGC dealers in America have been selling books to many European (including the UK) customers.

 

I get TIRED of COLLECTORS who BASH CGC, when the only books they BUY are LOW / MID-GRADE BOOKS that probably don't cost as much as the GRADING FEE ALONE.

 

Now if you tell me that you have lots of clients that spend $500 or more on ONE BOOK, and would prefer that book NOT BE CGC, then you argument is valid. And I'm not talking about someone who will pay a lot of money for a very old, very low grade book (i.e. early DC's and Timelys) as the grade and potential for restoration is not that important.

 

But I really don't believe there are many collectors who are dying to pay $10,000 for a raw VF Hulk #1 if they can get a CGC 8.0 for no more then 10% higher (as they have elimated the RISK that the book is restored and/or overgraded, at least from a time to sell point of view).

[jbud73]

Why do COLLECTORS only spend thousands of dollars on a book? Can they not spend a few hundred and still be COLLECTORS? Can they not buy low grade by the bag-full and still remain COLLECTORS? Sorry, that's a digression, but how do you know what constitutes a COLLECTOR? Someone with exactly the same buying habits are yourself? And nobody else can be?

 

Now we're having some fun.

 

Points to clarify:

 

The topic of the post refers to HIGH VALUE COMICS.

Therefore, we are not talking about people who buy $1-100 comic books. They are absolutely collectors but, I WOULDN'T EXPECT this to be the client of CGC books.

 

From everything that I have read, many HG CGC dealers in America have been selling books to many European (including the UK) customers.

 

I get TIRED of COLLECTORS who BASH CGC, when the only books they BUY are LOW / MID-GRADE BOOKS that probably don't cost as much as the GRADING FEE ALONE.

 

Now if you tell me that you have lots of clients that spend $500 or more on ONE BOOK, and would prefer that book NOT BE CGC, then you argument is valid. And I'm not talking about someone who will pay a lot of money for a very old, very low grade book (i.e. early DC's and Timelys) as the grade and potential for restoration is not that important.

 

But I really don't believe there are many collectors who are dying to pay $10,000 for a raw VF Hulk #1 if they can get a CGC 8.0 for no more then 10% higher (as they have elimated the RISK that the book is restored and/or overgraded, at least from a time to sell point of view).

 

I wonder what the elitist cut off point would be in terms of where the curve starts to go up for CGC transactions. Based on what I've seen I still think the a high percentage of transactions (say 80% or more) on books up to the $2500 tier are raw transactions. Thats just my gut based on what I've seen on the show floors, but I could be wrong.

[the blob]

"I get TIRED of COLLECTORS who BASH CGC, when the only books they BUY are LOW / MID-GRADE BOOKS that probably don't cost as much as the GRADING FEE ALONE."

 

I think it's the people selling these $100 an under books that are doing most of the bashing because CGC has created a contingent of people who will now only buy a book in a slab and (with the exception of some moderns that may fetch $50-$100, but only if slabbed, where the $15 slab is a good idea for the seller), as a result, the liquidity of the rest of the comic universe of books worth less than $100 for which a $30 slab doesn't make sense has been harmed. Before slabs the "i only buy slabs" people were buying raw. Now they're out of the market and many seem to expect a book that guides for $50 in VF to be in a slab that costs $30. OR these people now would only buy a raw book (at a huge discount) if it is of a value or grade that would be worth slabbing.

 

A decent chunk of my SA collection consists of books that guide for $25-$75. I really do feel like CGC has made it a harder to move these raw at a half decent price. Sure, perhaps ebay and the flood of sellers has had an impact too but I can't imagine that the core contingent of "never buy a raw book" collectors out there who voice that view doesn't at least dampen the enthusiasm of many would be raw buyers.

 

Not that I wouldn't be extremely hesitant to spend more than $100 on ebay on a raw book as well. Virtually all of my $100+ purchases on ebay over the last few years have been slabbed.

[jbud73]

Hmm thats funny all of my $100 and over purchases with the exception of 2 have been Raw. CGC has changed things, but this formula is pretty much consistent. Buy in person, or buy off dealers that can grade, or both. CGC has eliminated the need to develop a specialized skill set or knowledge base, however if nothing these boards and discussion should have illustrated that this is overstated. You still have to know a thing or two - not all 9.4s are created the same and not all 9.4s are 9.4s and some were once 8.0s if you catch my drift.

[helionaut]

CGC is still in its infancy. They've been around for 5 years or so, and there is still a ways to go for wide acceptance among all collectors. In my other hobby, baseball cards, the main grading company, PSA, has been around for about 15 years, and it was only around 1998 that it really started to catch on. Coin slabbing has been around longer than that, and probably took a long time to catch on, too. While Wizard reporting on slabbed sales had a big impact on one segment of the hobby and Overstreet including it had an impact on another, the time has yet to come where you can walk into any comic shop and see a good selection of books slabbed. The ones I've been to have had either the newest hot books like Ultimate Spider-man or Origin #1 or Batman #608 slabbed, or else whatever flakes of the Golden or Silver Ages might have been lying around. Just to try it out. In 5 years, with strady progress, continual development and expansion of the market, positive coverage in Wizard (whose broke 12-20 yo readers will grow to be 20-25 yo adults with disposable income), and improvements in the Registry (too many key sets are missing), there will be a big change in the amount and type of material graded. While the cost of entry for pre-76 books is still a big speed bump, I think the population will get there eventually. If you look at cards, it is common to see a 1970s card that would be worth less than a quarter raw sell for hundreds if graded out not at a 10, but a 9 or even an 8 in a lot of cases, due to pressures of competition on the PSA Registry. Cost of slabbing is typically $10 or less, though. If it was $30, there would be many fewer graded. But PSA increased the number of graders in the past few years and CGC would be smart to do the same, both to increase current business and to, over time, increase the population that promotes acceptance. Now when many collectors look at a nice raw baseball card, they wonder why it's not slabbed. It's reaching a point where raw state breeds suspicion. While there are some valid reasons not to slab a comic (being able to read it first in my mind, followed by bulkiness of a large collection), they are being worn away balanced against the dollars involved. Of course, a baseball card and a comic book are very different in terms of grading and complexity (you can read a whole baseball card inside the slab), but I think the market is going in that same direction with respect to a lot of comics. Basically, over time, if there is any money to be made at all, most anything worth slabbing will be slabbed. Especially when the registry really gets going. When a couple heavyweights start competing for low-population books in premium grade, it can be a lot of fun to watch, and resulting publicity usually draws in more participants, and books.

[jbud73]

I know that this is probably the preferred business model that CGC would like to see develop over time. While its hard to say what actually will happen. I think the different mediums was understated in your analogy. Slabbing comics definitely changes their composition 85% of the book becomes unviewable. While I support the need for standardized grading and am of the opinion that CGC has undertaken this enterprise well - still if encapsulation reaches the population % that are evident in cards and coins, the hobby might have grown a little too far.

 

I'm also of the opinion that Comics in CGC holders do not show as well as Raw books. Helionaut I have a question actually. What is the prevalence in Cards of Cracking the card out of the holder. How would you gauge its frequency as compared to comics. My sense is that there is a lot more cracking going on in the Comics for the reasons illustrated above.

[LordThanos1969]

The cost of PSA card grading has also been held down by the presence of healthy competition from the other main card grading companies: SGC, Beckett, and GAI. Currently, CGC has no real competition to my knowledge (feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong here). There is no reason for the prices of CGC grading to drop; in fact, they may well escalate as demand for grading increases.

[kiltman]

The cost of PSA card grading has also been held down by the presence of healthy competition from the other main card grading companies: SGC, Beckett, and GAI. Currently, CGC has no real competition to my knowledge (feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong here). There is no reason for the prices of CGC grading to drop; in fact, they may well escalate as demand for grading increases.

 

*cries* It would be wonderful if they brought out a student rate. Where as long as the comic was produced in the early 90's and you can prove your a student you can have it graded for $5