ebay observation

[Buzzetta]

This is why I very rarely offer raw books on eBay or if I do I simply offer lots that say VF to NM for new stuff.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Has anyone noticed a trend of people buying raw books listed as NM or NM- and them returning them because they do not fit the criteria for 9.8 books, presumably due to ebay ' s required generous return policies? I went 16 years and 1000 plus comic transaction without anyone returning or complaining about any nm- or better book other than a couple damaged in shipping or where I flat out missed something, but now, anything with a spine tick, etc.

? Makes me wonder if there is a lot of fishing for potential under graded cgc material knowing that there is little risk due to returns.

 

I had a buyer...."fishyxliar"...noted in the eBay Blocked Bidder List thread...who opened up a claim against me for "items not as described", for a set of Batman #426-429, because the books were listed as "HIGH GRADE."

 

He essentially freaked out...well, here's part of the exchange:

 

"These would grade a F/VF in grade level: Fine (FN) condition Fine/Very Fine FN/VF 7.0 Fine+ FN+ 6.5 Fine FN 6.0 Fine- FN- 5.5 A comic in FN condition is considered "above average" but still displays some wear. In general, the eye appeal is somewhat reduced due to either an accumulation of minor defects or one or two moderate defects. Acceptable defects on a FN copy include: Slight spine roll, a moderate accumulation of spine stresses that may break color, a spine split of less than 1/2", minor water spotting or residue (less than the size of a dime), an impacted corner, and moderate foxing. Can you tell how this one is more comparable to this, than an M grading? If they pages weren't out of place and the discoloration hadn't reached a tan-cream color, then we would be talking about an actual 9.0 grade level, but with the spine stress, and the color breaks, along with the pages comic out of it, the staples no longer in a straight line, shows that there's been more wear to the comic than shown. "

 

And this:

 

"Exactly, you know very WELL that these comic books aren't high grade, that you were lying about the comic books grade, and in fact, still lying. Superb condition, not true at all, I'll send it to you the same way I got them, nicely packaged, because they haven't even left the table after I opened them. I can't believe you're literally trying to tell me these are above 9.0, NEAR MINT : 9.4 NEAR MINT- : 9.2 This book is an excellent copy with great eye appeal. It is vibrant and clean with supple pages. The spine may have a couple of very small stress lines at the most 1/4 inch the surface color around the line must not be noticeably broken. The spine is almost completely flat. The cover is relatively flat with almost no surface wear and the cover inks are generally bright with medium to high reflectivity. The staples may show some discoloration, but it's not too noticeable on first glance. The inside pages and covers usually will be off-white to white, but can be creamy or slightly yellowish. Here's another one, does that say PAGES ARE OFF-CENTERED TO YOU? No. Didn't think so. AND LOOK AT THAT. FINE / VERY FINE : 7.0 Slightly better condition than FINE +: 6.5, but in lesser condition than the grade above. FINE+ : 6.5 FINE : 6.0 FINE- : 5.5 This comic is definitely a well-read copy, but can still be a very desirable copy. This could have one major defect like a larger piece out of the cover (1/4 inch to 1/8 inch) or a one-inch plus tear. It has stress lines around the staples and creases from the opening and closing of the cover. The whiteness of the pages has been changed to off-white to yellowish color. This could have a reading or subscription crease or a rolled spine, but is not damaged enough to reduce eye appeal dramatically. Some discoloration, fading in colors and even minor soiling is allowed. The cover and/or inside pages could have minor tears and/or folds Cover can be loose from one staple, but cover cannot be completely detached from interior. Pages and inside covers could be brown but not brittle. Depending on the grade of the copy certain amounts are available in this grade. i.e a book that looks 8.0 with a piece of tape on the interior cover is acceptable in this grade. DID THAT JUST SAY A LOW GRADE HAS A ROLL? WHICH IS OFF CENTERED? HUH. S H O C K I N G. On top of that, I shouldn't have to pay return on damaged products, that I was lied to about. Glowing review, can't wait!"

 

And more like this, essentially telling me I had ripped him off, that I'd raped his mother, and slaughtered his whole family.

 

So, I told him to send them back...and he dared me to send them to CGC, so I took him up on his offer.

 

Guess what the books came back as.....?

 

 

VFNM or better?

 

MY estimates for those particular copies (and I have many multiples) were:

 

#426 - 9.6

#427 - 9.4/9.6

#428 - 9.2, slight chance at 9.4

#429 - 9.6

 

Here's what I told him, verbatim:

 

The #426 and #429 are dead 9.6s, the #427 is a 9.4/9.6 (could go either way), and the #428 is a solid 9.2, maybe a 9.4.

 

And:

 

A few things that need to be pointed out: I didn't offer the books as "9.6s" in the listing. You say "the books were poorly graded", but I didn't GIVE them grades. You'll note, they are listed as "very high grade", not "9.6", because of situations like this. I don't always like to get in the weeds with people saying "well, you said it was a 9.6, and I only think it's a 9.4!"

 

Actual grades from CGC, after being transported all over the country:

 

 

#426 - 9.6

#427 - 9.2

#428 - 9.4

#429 - 9.4

 

Oh, and all four were WHITE pages.

 

 

 

 

[D84]

Did you contact the guy and show him the results?

[slym2none]

I'd email him & thank him for sending them back, as "now I can sell them for even more than I did to you, and I have CGC's word to back my own up."

 

 

 

 

-slym

[BlowUpTheMoon]

 

#426 - 9.6

#427 - 9.2

#428 - 9.4

#429 - 9.4

 

Oh, and all four were WHITE pages.

 

 

 

 

Was it worth it to submit those books?

[CKB]

Why are you sellers paying return shipping? You don't have to do that. If someone makes a return both sides should be out the shipping costs. Paying shipping both ways invites this abuse.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Did you contact the guy and show him the results?

 

I'd email him & thank him for sending them back, as "now I can sell them for even more than I did to you, and I have CGC's word to back my own up."

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

 

#426 - 9.6

#427 - 9.2

#428 - 9.4

#429 - 9.4

 

Oh, and all four were WHITE pages.

 

 

 

 

Was it worth it to submit those books?

 

I told him I would be happy to submit the books, but that he would have to pay for everything, and that he would first have to return the books to me, so I could submit them directly to CGC. I told him to carefully scan each book, to make sure I wasn't "pulling a fast one on him", and then send the books back.

 

He did, I sent them to CGC, and the books were shipped to him. They are presumably now in his possession, and the transaction is now completely over.

 

Essentially, after all was said and done, he paid about GPA for these books in these grades slabbed...but managed to hammer my eBay account with a claim against me in the process. Yay.

 

His response:

 

Ok, books are done and shipping out tomorrow.

 

 

 

Here are your grades:

 

 

 

Batman #408 - 9.6 (as promised)

 

Batman #426 - 9.6

 

Batman #427 - 9.2

 

Batman #428 - 9.4

 

Batman #429 - 9.4

 

 

 

So, the #426 is exactly as I thought it would be, the #427 is a little lower, the #428 (the key) is a little higher, and the #429 is a little lower. And not that it matters, but they are in stupid tight mode at the moment. Still...you had insisted that I was lying about them being high grade, and the grades are NM+, NM-, NM and NM. Hopefully, you are willing to see that I wasn't lying to you, or trying to scam you?

 

So, we were both wrong, I guess? Regardless, at least they're not under 9, so I'm happy with my purchase.

 

 

Yes, we were "both wrong." I was "wrong" about what CGC would grade them, and he called me a liar and a scammer. So yes, I guess we were both wrong...

 

 

By the way...during this, he got involved with a comic store called "Tate's Comics"...he reported that they said this:

 

The comic book store was Tate's comics, I don't know if you know them, but they poorly reviewed your comics. Telling me that you had given me the wrong grading for them that a 9.6 would never have a crease on the spine, and would never have pages coming out of the comic book, they explained that if the comics were "off-centered" they wouldn't have a page in the middle sticking out, they'd all be rolling together in one direct, but since one page in like the lower half was sticking out, it meant that it wasn't rolled. On top of that, they told me that the spine had shown minimal opening, saying the comic book had been used prior to, and that lowered it's grade, they also told me since the pages weren't a creme-color or a tan, and since they leaned more into yellow, that meant that the rating dropped along with it. They said if the creases hadn't caused color break, then maybe it would've been above an 8.5, but since the cover showed color break, they weren't very pleased with that. They hesitated removing the comic books from the bag to check the back of it, to see if it was soiled, and told me that just from looking at it, that it should've been in better conditions. They told me if I was very upset with it, to just return it, they continuously advised me that it was poorly graded by you, and not to continue arguing with you, that it was pointless. If I'm unsatisfied, to just return it, although they did wonder why I didn't just send it to CGC and explained that you were against the idea of me doing so, due to lack of trust, and they simply told me to just return it to you then.

 

 

I had told him, over and over and over and over, to return the books for a full refund, that it didn't matter what my opinion was, that he was the customer, and that's all that counted. The arguing wasn't being done by me.

 

 

Beware of Ares Rosell, aka "fishyxliar.".

[kav]

blocked

[slym2none]

Beware of Ares Rosell, aka "fishyxliar.".

 

I missed this name on the other thread. Thanks for this.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[tth2]

I am thinking of just saying high grade, medium grade, and low grade.

You're a lawyer, why don't you just include a detailed definition of "NM" or whatever grades you're listing, in the auction description?

[thecopperagekids]

Beware of Ares Rosell, aka "fishyxliar.".

 

I missed this name on the other thread. Thanks for this.

 

 

 

 

-slym

 

 

+1

[MetalPSI]

RMA has to be one of the best sellers I have ever, ever dealt with. The fact he runs into these types of problems is baffling to me considering the effort made to ensure a smooth transaction.

[crassus]

I am thinking of just saying high grade, medium grade, and low grade.

You're a lawyer, why don't you just include a detailed definition of "NM" or whatever grades you're listing, in the auction description?

 

I find this a really interesting thread, and I'm just reacting to the question, and not presuming obviously to answer for the OP.

 

I left the hobby in the mid 1980s and came back into it in the mid 2000s, and it was a different universe. Those friends of mine with the same timeline who didn't come back, look at the grading now with a lot of scepticism.

 

There is scepticism about the plausibility of finely cut grades, meaning 9.2 vs 9.4 vs 9.6 or even less plausibly, 9.9

 

I have a friendly and ongoing argument with a friend who got out of comics and everytime he sees me grading a book it usually ends with something like the following (to paraphrase):

 

"VF+??...8.5??...look at the book...its beautiful...in my day we would have put it down on the table, everybody would have gone WOW what a beautiful book and called it and sold it a NM..."

 

I would then list what imo were the various defects that by present standards prevented me from selling it as a NM, however beautiful it may look on the table, I say, if I tried to sell this as a NM I would lose customers.

 

Our discussions usually end with him shaking his head in disbelief and saying something like "This is what I hate about (expletive deleted name of grading company deleted) and what it's done to this hobby" and than we both laugh about it.

 

That one should have to think it necessary to draw on legal skills to grade and sell a comic is a sign of the times, and a sad sign of the times. Part of the problem is the prevalence of sociopaths on Ebay, but the hobby now is feeding those monsters with the potent forces of big money and the pretension of pseudo-scientific standards.

 

 

[jcjames]

Beware of Ares Rosell, aka "fishyxliar.".

 

This person was already on my banned-ebay-buyers list from your post in the Banned Ebay Buyers thread.

 

[lizards2]

I am thinking of just saying high grade, medium grade, and low grade.

You're a lawyer, why don't you just include a detailed definition of "NM" or whatever grades you're listing, in the auction description?

 

I find this a really interesting thread, and I'm just reacting to the question, and not presuming obviously to answer for the OP.

 

I left the hobby in the mid 1980s and came back into it in the mid 2000s, and it was a different universe. Those friends of mine with the same timeline who didn't come back, look at the grading now with a lot of scepticism.

 

There is scepticism about the plausibility of finely cut grades, meaning 9.2 vs 9.4 vs 9.6 or even less plausibly, 9.9

 

I have a friendly and ongoing argument with a friend who got out of comics and everytime he sees me grading a book it usually ends with something like the following (to paraphrase):

 

"VF+??...8.5??...look at the book...its beautiful...in my day we would have put it down on the table, everybody would have gone WOW what a beautiful book and called it and sold it a NM..."

 

I would then list what imo were the various defects that by present standards prevented me from selling it as a NM, however beautiful it may look on the table, I say, if I tried to sell this as a NM I would lose customers.

 

Our discussions usually end with him shaking his head in disbelief and saying something like "This is what I hate about (expletive deleted name of grading company deleted) and what it's done to this hobby" and than we both laugh about it.

 

That one should have to think it necessary to draw on legal skills to grade and sell a comic is a sign of the times, and a sad sign of the times. Part of the problem is the prevalence of sociopaths on Ebay, but the hobby now is feeding those monsters with the potent forces of big money and the pretension of pseudo-scientific standards.

 

 

I've also bought from several boardies on eBay, and it's interesting to see which ones lose their grading ability when they sell at that venue. Not all of them, but some of them. And of course, some couldn't grade to begin with in either venue.

[StuporMan]

Honestly, I think to a certain extent CGC and other grading companies have hurt the hobby. Most people seem to be chasing 9.8 and don't even look at the book.

 

Do you remember when VF 8.0 was desirable copy?

 

Pre-Copper or raw? Still is to me

[darkstar]

Why are you sellers paying return shipping? You don't have to do that. If someone makes a return both sides should be out the shipping costs. Paying shipping both ways invites this abuse.

 

Because items not as described cases are different than simple returns. On a simple return the seller mandates whether the shipping cost is the seller's or buyer's responsibility. On items not as described the seller eats the return shipping charge. If the seller does not provide a return label then eBay generates one for the buyer and adds the charge to the seller's monthly invoice.

[the blob]

Why are you sellers paying return shipping? You don't have to do that. If someone makes a return both sides should be out the shipping costs. Paying shipping both ways invites this abuse.

 

I don't have to, sure, but I'd also rather not get a negative, which I hope wouldn't happen. I have sent people the money and they have actually declined it though.

[drotto]

Best part is, I have seen books with one or two very small spine ticks come back as 9.8. Basically there is no perfect comic book.

[the blob]

October said he got a 9.8 with 12 spine ticks. That sounds extreme and I would never call a book with a tick a 9.8, but one might be ok on a 9.6 if small. I had a 9.4 copper with 6 ticks.