Opinions On Restoration

[PovertyRow]

This whole restoration thing is a fascinating topic. Back in the early days of Sotheby's auctions, the restorer was often named and the name of the restorer could lend credibility to that lot. For example, a book restored by Susan could indeed bring a higher amount than a book that was simply "restored" without naming the restorer, because collectors knew that the good restorers used reversible processes, used archival materials and did not violate the book by doing things like reglossing or trimming.

 

Yet restoration is almost a death knell, due totally to a combination of the CGC labeling and the uninformed collector. It is unfortunate. While I definitely prefer unrestored books, a line must be drawn between invasive and non-invasive restoration.

 

Processes like removing a spine roll, dry cleaning, simple pressing: in my opinion they should not be counted under restoration. It should simply be described under a Universal label. These processes add nothing to the book and can help lengthen its life. When removing a spine roll (surprisingly easy), removing an ink transfer stain (extremely simple and very benign) or a simple dry cleaning, nothing is added to the book.

 

Processes like inpainting, leaf forming and tear seals are radical enough to earn the CGC restoration label. But spine roll removal, pressing and dry cleaning? Nah. Thoughts?

[comicinvestor-migration]

People spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on a comic realize the inherent value and scarcity of an untouched gem. Investors outside the hobby are scared of restored books (and rightly so), collectors avoid them, and they are only saleable at depressed Guide values. Many on here state they "don't mind restored books" but an extremely low price is definitely part of the equation.

 

No matter how you slice it, anything but a 100% original, unaltered and untouched NM+ book (or what CGC *ahem* states is original) will never get the big bucks and I only see this downward trend getting worse.

 

This is the negative to the CGC high-grade windfall, that low-to-mid-grade comics, and restored / altered books will continue to lose value on a daily basis. It's all about getting the very best, and no one in their right mind looks at a restored book that way.

[Darthdiesel]

CI, just to piggyback, I believe it's ALWAYS been about getting the very best even before CGC. It's just too bad for those who were sold what they thought was "the best" and actually got a made to order fixer-upper.

[PovertyRow]

>> It's all about getting the very best, and no one in their right mind looks at a restored book that way. <<

 

You are both hitting my point and seemingly condemning my point at the same time. I am talking here about informed people.

 

In the "fine arts" world, not only is the cleaning of a painting condoned, it is recommended. Why? Because they know that the original colors still exist underneath a layer of dirt, grime, smoke whatever. Now a painting is a bit tougher than a comic. But the principal should still apply. The ORIGINAL QUALITY of the book remains, and that should be the guiding principal. If non-invasive processes can reveal what still exists in the book - why not?

 

We allow store stamps on a book without really impacting the grade, and what you actually have is a quantity of foreign ink pressed into the cover of a comic. Yet that is ok? I disagree.

[PovertyRow]

>> actually got a made to order fixer-upper<<

 

Geeze, did you even read what I wrote? If the book did not already HAVE that "made to order quality" to begin with, then the restoration impact should be considerably reduced because those qualties were not added - they were already THERE and were simply revealed. (OK - I can feel one star coming on but ya know what? I don't care. I have finally found a forum with folks who know comic books! You can agree or disagree. I find all equally exciting, just to be able to talk comics!)

[comicinvestor-migration]

Hey, you can talk concepts the how they relate to other fields (paintings are originals and the buyer either buys it or not, while comic collectors have multiple issues to choose from), but I try and live in the real world. To whit, I don't know of any collector (especially the rich ones) who view restored comics as anything but a cash-losing dog.

 

In other words, I may feel that Care Bears #12 is THE finest comic ever printed, but if the mass market doesn't agree with me, then it's still going to be in the quarter bins. I don't see restoration gaining steam with the new money, but falling even further behind.

 

The real question is this: Does anyone out there prefer a restored book to an unrestored one, price notwithstanding. If you've got the cash, why settle for a book that has been worked on?

 

It's like those sellers who list comics with the Marvel Value Stamp clipped, as "not affecting the story". Hey buddy, if I was spending $2K on a story, I'd grab a reprint for $2 instead. If I really wanted a resto book, I'd buy a F/VF and have the work done myself.

[Darthdiesel]

I just call all restos "frankenstein comics" or fixer uppers. Cleaning and other resto techniques, invasive, non-invasive, pressing, spine roll removal - all may preserve the book's original look and form but when it comes to down to it, I don't want to get into a "who can resto their book the best" contest in order to compete for big money sales.

 

If my dad bought a comic book in 1936 and did nothing to it, but keep it dry, flat and well stored and pass it on to me in VF condition, that SHOULD be worth more to buyers/collectors than a comic passed to you in FN+, and because of your immense resto knowledge, patched up to an App NM, regardless of how "informed" your audience is. To me Restoration is cheating, especially when it factors into sales and is usually synonymous nowadays with seller fraud/misrepresentation of goods.

 

As for your one star, I've already dinged you with one long time ago, before your 3rd post...

[PovertyRow]

>> It's like those sellers who list comics with the Marvel Value Stamp clipped, as "not affecting the story". <<

 

Please do not insult me, CI. If you want to add this kind of broad generalization into the mix tell me what you really know about restoration processes. I'll be happy to do likewise. May be best in PM since I am sure most folks here don't want to watch this kind of argument. Or maybe they do? Who knows. But to equate a clipped page to the kind of processes I am talking about is ludicrous.

[PovertyRow]

>>Restoration is cheating, especially when it factors into sales and is usually synonymous nowadays with seller fraud/misrepresentation of goods.<<

 

Jesus doesn't ANYONE know what I am talking about? Have I said a restored book with non-invasive processes should sell for the same amount and not have the restoration revealed? I specificaly said it SHOULD be revealed but not on that colored label. Or did you miss that? Tell me if I DID say that the non-invasive restoration should be slip-streamed and I will buy your entire collection for 10x guide. And I will kiss every book in your collection as I pay for it. There is a HUGE TREMENDOUS CONSIDERABLE difference between a simple pressing, spine roll removal or dry cleaning and a piece replacement, tear repair, inpainting, leaf forming etc. If you cannot see that - well I certainly am not gonna convince you.

 

And I ALSO said that the restoration of these non-invasive processes should be revelaed on the label. So where the hell is the cheating?

 

Man am I pissed. They should rename this the Comic Investors Who do Not Care About Anytyhing Except A Profit Forum.

 

But I shall remain here.

 

[PovertyRow]

>>to compete for big money sales.<<

 

Maybe I am missing something here. If I am please tell me. I was under the impression that the folks here mainly collected and perceived comics for their artistic (story and graphic) qualties. If you are saying the majority here are in the CBSM (comic book stock market) then all I can say is - what the hell?

[PovertyRow]

>>with the new money<<

 

Where am I?

[Darthdiesel]

"If you cannot see that - well I certainly am not gonna convince you."

 

Damn straight - to me resto is resto... and not worth my time or money, period.

[Guest]

Okay, I am new here, but have been in comics for over 30 years. I was around when books were worked on and not advertised. I was around when this whole thing of "restoration" came to light. For what it's worth....here's what I think. Unless the book in question is very valuable....$1000 or better, if it's had anything done to it, it's garbage. The $1000 mark is arbitrary. What's valuable to some is paltry to others. Trying to compare 400 year old original works of art to comics printed in the 100,000's is retarted. Tell you what...go find the original art to Action 1, then we can talk. How can you think that a comic of that stature restored to vf/nm should be worth an untouched, true vf/nm. Give me a break. I have thrown away books that had work done to them (good or bad) that if untouched still would have been worth $50 or $60. Look at the SanFrans that Wilson worked on. They don't come close to the value of untouched beautiful SanFrans.

 

 

-- this is just my opinion and not that of others working at this station --

[Darthdiesel]

If you are saying the majority here are in the CBSM (comic book stock market) then all I can say is - what the hell?

 

If you can not see that there are as many dealers, maybe more, as there are collectors on this forum who are interested in how books sell, then I certainly am not gonna convince you....

[blowout]

........its obvious you feel very strongly on this subject povertyrow, but so do others, there's nothing wrong will a healthy debate, don't let the oposing views rile you............

 

......i myself, don't know too much about the restoration process's, but as a collector i avoid restored books. mainly because i would rather own the original item rather than something that has been 'dressed up' to look better than it was (usually for the sake of making more money).

 

...i have no problem with seriously old books that are restored for preservation purposes, if a book would die without the process then great...........

 

........what you say about loosing the purple label, i don't agree with.............restoration needs to be disclosed, and some notes on a blue label just isn't good enough.............

 

....the purple label makes it abundantly clear that a book has been restored, and leaves the potential buyer with the choice of restored or unrestored............

 

.........in my view restored is restored, wether it is cleaned, pressed, trimmed, or huge sections replaced.................it is just the degree of retoration that varies...........

 

........i think cgc have this nailed just about right ..............

[comicinvestor-migration]

But to equate a clipped page to the kind of processes I am talking about is ludicrous.

 

Once again, your opinion and nothing more.

 

My Opinion:

 

I personally equate any change to the comic's structure, content or make-up in the EXACT same way, whether it's resto or some missing part of the comic.

[Darthdiesel]

Jesus doesn't ANYONE know what I am talking about? Have I said a restored book with non-invasive processes should sell for the same amount and not have the restoration revealed? I specificaly said it SHOULD be revealed but not on that colored label. Or did you miss that? Tell me if I DID say that the non-invasive restoration should be slip-streamed and I will buy your entire collection for 10x guide. And I will kiss every book in your collection as I pay for it. There is a HUGE TREMENDOUS CONSIDERABLE difference between a simple pressing, spine roll removal or dry cleaning and a piece replacement, tear repair, inpainting, leaf forming etc. If you cannot see that - well I certainly am not gonna convince you.

 

The name's Darth and I do know what you are rambling about. No, you never said that outright, but seem to be making a claim for higher value to be assigned for "less" restored books than "more" restored books. If you are planning to cut up your book and fix it up, clean it and keep it in your collection, then by God, go to it, man, and be happy. But if you ever decide to put it out on the market, you might as well burn it, from the current stance on restos on the open market.

 

I highly doubt you would want my collection, even at 10x guide, as you couldn't "fix" my 9.8's into 10.0s no matter what invasive, non invasisve technique you tried.

 

I see your HUGE TREMENDOUS CONSIDERABLE point, but I disagree. I'm glad that the Purple label that CGC gives has that stigma attached to it, as this comic snob does not want it's blue labelled babies playing with the bad purple kids from the other side of the tracks. WHO CARES? NOT ME...I don't collect anything that would remotely ever be restored. Nor am I interested in Golden Age/Silver Age that are???

 

[PovertyRow]

>>I personally equate any change to the comic's structure, content or make-up in the EXACT same way, whether it's resto or some missing part of the comic. <<

 

Err - what do you mean by "resto or some missing part of the comic." Is not "resto" some missing part of the comic? THAT is what I am saying. There is restoration which replaces and restoration which reveals. And a distinction should be made. If you cannot see the diff then - well - you cannot.

 

 

 

 

[Darthdiesel]

No distinction...resto is bad for sales...glad if we could cull all these out of the comic book population, but I 'd take off the open market.

[PovertyRow]

>> If you are planning to cut up your book and fix it up, clean it and keep it in your collectiion then by God, go to it man and be happy. But if you ever decide to put it out on the market, you might as well burn it, from the current stance on restos on the open market. <<

 

 

Nope. I do not. And once again someone has to include "cut up" in the processes I agree with. As if, again, they never read what I wrote.

 

Here is what I am saying - and CI - this applies to you as well.

 

1) Grades are based on extent of damage. Can we agree on that?

 

2) A book that has had a light pencil mark dry erased vs a book that has had inpainting, piece replacement and spine reinforcement are considerably different. Or do you feel they are the same?

 

3) There are VERY different intensities of restoration and if we are ever going to be more than a place on NASDAQ we should appreciate that.

 

4) I never said that a book with non-invasive restoration should go for the same price as a book with NO restoration. What I DID say is that such books should be perceived differently.

 

I truly wish folks would address these points and not glom everything into "resto" or not.