Notice of HoS nomination and poll for munkalunk

[newshane]

I did not ask for a return on grading fees in any of my official contacts with him on eBay regarding a refund.

 

Why are you even trying to make this an issue?

[CAHokie]

There is also a huge difference in getting a lower grade than expected on an ebay buy and someone using a pair of plyers to add covers to manufacture a fake book.

[shadroch]

There is also a huge difference in getting a lower grade than expected on an ebay buy and someone using a pair of plyers to add covers to manufacture a fake book.

 

Would PayPal, eBay or a credit card company include the cost of grading when giving a refund?

 

[thecopperagekids]

There is also a huge difference in getting a lower grade than expected on an ebay buy and someone using a pair of plyers to add covers to manufacture a fake book.

 

Would PayPal, eBay or a credit card company include the cost of grading when giving a refund?

 

Maybe...maybe not.

 

If the submitter was very vocal and adamantly expressed his position, considering that the submitter subbed a book that was bought under false pretenses, it is certainly possible.

 

This is not the same as over/under grading a book.

 

The book was sold under the auspice of being a rare production error.It is not.The seller added on cover(s) to the book to counterfeit a genuine production error, thereby giving the book an air of greatly increased desirability and monetary value.

 

The book lacks both of those traits.

 

This is not a case or a book being a half a grade lower or higher...and yes, Paypal, eBay or any CC company would be completely right to dismiss....and virtually laugh.... off such a request.

 

 

 

 

[CAHokie]

There is also a huge difference in getting a lower grade than expected on an ebay buy and someone using a pair of plyers to add covers to manufacture a fake book.

 

Would PayPal, eBay or a credit card company include the cost of grading when giving a refund?

 

Its not called a "refund" if you commit Felony Fraud and get busted. Restitution would be the word more applicable.

[shadroch]

There is also a huge difference in getting a lower grade than expected on an ebay buy and someone using a pair of plyers to add covers to manufacture a fake book.

 

Would PayPal, eBay or a credit card company include the cost of grading when giving a refund?

 

Its not called a "refund" if you commit Felony Fraud and get busted. Restitution would be the word more applicable.

 

Fine. Would any of them give restitution to the buyer?

[dupont2005]

There is also a huge difference in getting a lower grade than expected on an ebay buy and someone using a pair of plyers to add covers to manufacture a fake book.

 

Would PayPal, eBay or a credit card company include the cost of grading when giving a refund?

Probably not, but I think the boards have a higher standard than eBay and Paypal do. I like the high standards of the boards personally, it's why I'd rather shop here than eBay.

[divad]

There is also a huge difference in getting a lower grade than expected on an ebay buy and someone using a pair of plyers to add covers to manufacture a fake book.

 

I think his choice of name alone deserves a place on the HOS . ..

 

Seriously, his sales are the definition of the HOS.

 

And I made the freaking list . . .

[shadroch]

There is also a huge difference in getting a lower grade than expected on an ebay buy and someone using a pair of plyers to add covers to manufacture a fake book.

 

I think his choice of name alone deserves a place on the HOS . ..

 

Seriously, his sales are the definition of the HOS.

 

And I made the freaking list . . .

 

Unlike comic keys, who has been doing far worse for decades.

[Chaseman210]

Who is comic keys?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Restitution for the eBay sale. He is still seeing if he can cancel the CGC grading order on the book.

 

To play the devils advocate, what happens if it comes back a blue label?

On a side note, asking to get cgc fees on a $20 book is ridiculous.

 

I didn't pursue CGC fees and accepted that it was my decision to send the book off for grading.

 

What's your problem?

 

Also, at what point would it NOT be ridiculous? How much does the book have to be worth?

 

This guy is getting off cheap and easy if you ask me.

 

Ridiculous?

 

You have a guy who admitted in front of the entire board to selling fake comics that "his friend" manufactured. You have a guy who had to be publicly exposed before he would refund $21. Then he told us all to go to and you call asking for CGC fees ridiculous?

 

I'm honestly kind of surprised with you.

 

Not sure what surprises you? I've gone on record to say that requesting slab fees in a transaction

is wrong.

Last year I sold a book for $15 that I described as VF, maybe better. Buyer asked if it would get a 9.0

I told him it might, but I was selling it as VF.Months later, he asked not only for a full refund, but grading fees and shipping back and forth to Florida. He wanted $57 for a book I sold him for $15.

When I refused he asked for $20 and he'd keep the book. He got nothing.

In your case, you got a refund and have the book.

EBay is a cesspool. Is this news?

Simple question.

Would eBay or PayPal side with you in including grading costs for a book bought raw?

It's great that some dealers will refund such fees, but that is not the eBay standard, and I don't believe it should be a board standard

 

Don't leave us hanging. What did CGC grade the book?

[shadroch]

Restitution for the eBay sale. He is still seeing if he can cancel the CGC grading order on the book.

 

To play the devils advocate, what happens if it comes back a blue label?

On a side note, asking to get cgc fees on a $20 book is ridiculous.

 

I didn't pursue CGC fees and accepted that it was my decision to send the book off for grading.

 

What's your problem?

 

Also, at what point would it NOT be ridiculous? How much does the book have to be worth?

 

This guy is getting off cheap and easy if you ask me.

 

Ridiculous?

 

You have a guy who admitted in front of the entire board to selling fake comics that "his friend" manufactured. You have a guy who had to be publicly exposed before he would refund $21. Then he told us all to go to and you call asking for CGC fees ridiculous?

 

I'm honestly kind of surprised with you.

 

Not sure what surprises you? I've gone on record to say that requesting slab fees in a transaction

is wrong.

Last year I sold a book for $15 that I described as VF, maybe better. Buyer asked if it would get a 9.0

I told him it might, but I was selling it as VF.Months later, he asked not only for a full refund, but grading fees and shipping back and forth to Florida. He wanted $57 for a book I sold him for $15.

When I refused he asked for $20 and he'd keep the book. He got nothing.

In your case, you got a refund and have the book.

EBay is a cesspool. Is this news?

Simple question.

Would eBay or PayPal side with you in including grading costs for a book bought raw?

It's great that some dealers will refund such fees, but that is not the eBay standard, and I don't believe it should be a board standard

 

Don't leave us hanging. What did CGC grade the book?

 

8.0.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Restitution for the eBay sale. He is still seeing if he can cancel the CGC grading order on the book.

 

To play the devils advocate, what happens if it comes back a blue label?

On a side note, asking to get cgc fees on a $20 book is ridiculous.

 

I didn't pursue CGC fees and accepted that it was my decision to send the book off for grading.

 

What's your problem?

 

Also, at what point would it NOT be ridiculous? How much does the book have to be worth?

 

This guy is getting off cheap and easy if you ask me.

 

Ridiculous?

 

You have a guy who admitted in front of the entire board to selling fake comics that "his friend" manufactured. You have a guy who had to be publicly exposed before he would refund $21. Then he told us all to go to and you call asking for CGC fees ridiculous?

 

I'm honestly kind of surprised with you.

 

Not sure what surprises you? I've gone on record to say that requesting slab fees in a transaction

is wrong.

Last year I sold a book for $15 that I described as VF, maybe better. Buyer asked if it would get a 9.0

I told him it might, but I was selling it as VF.Months later, he asked not only for a full refund, but grading fees and shipping back and forth to Florida. He wanted $57 for a book I sold him for $15.

When I refused he asked for $20 and he'd keep the book. He got nothing.

In your case, you got a refund and have the book.

EBay is a cesspool. Is this news?

Simple question.

Would eBay or PayPal side with you in including grading costs for a book bought raw?

It's great that some dealers will refund such fees, but that is not the eBay standard, and I don't believe it should be a board standard

 

Don't leave us hanging. What did CGC grade the book?

 

8.0.

 

You sold it as a VF

It came back an 8.0

 

Who's the that requested a refund?

[Doktor]

Restitution for the eBay sale. He is still seeing if he can cancel the CGC grading order on the book.

 

To play the devils advocate, what happens if it comes back a blue label?

On a side note, asking to get cgc fees on a $20 book is ridiculous.

 

I didn't pursue CGC fees and accepted that it was my decision to send the book off for grading.

 

What's your problem?

 

Also, at what point would it NOT be ridiculous? How much does the book have to be worth?

 

This guy is getting off cheap and easy if you ask me.

 

Ridiculous?

 

You have a guy who admitted in front of the entire board to selling fake comics that "his friend" manufactured. You have a guy who had to be publicly exposed before he would refund $21. Then he told us all to go to and you call asking for CGC fees ridiculous?

 

I'm honestly kind of surprised with you.

 

Not sure what surprises you? I've gone on record to say that requesting slab fees in a transaction

is wrong.

Last year I sold a book for $15 that I described as VF, maybe better. Buyer asked if it would get a 9.0

I told him it might, but I was selling it as VF.Months later, he asked not only for a full refund, but grading fees and shipping back and forth to Florida. He wanted $57 for a book I sold him for $15.

When I refused he asked for $20 and he'd keep the book. He got nothing.

In your case, you got a refund and have the book.

EBay is a cesspool. Is this news?

Simple question.

Would eBay or PayPal side with you in including grading costs for a book bought raw?

It's great that some dealers will refund such fees, but that is not the eBay standard, and I don't believe it should be a board standard

 

I think there's a difference between the 2 situations. A big difference.

 

Your case was a buyer having unrealistic expectations based on the way it was advertised & you offering an honest assessment on condition.

 

The other was a seller purposely misrepresenting a book.

 

One is someone being disappointed that they didn't get a deal & then being an unmitigated dickbag when it didn't come back better than it was advertised.

 

The other was a buyer expecting to get a legit book only for it to be found out that the seller lied about known manipulation to it.

 

Would we be discussing this if the seller had been trimming books? Color touching? Marrying books? And then still representing them as the real deal? I don't see any difference between marrying covers to artificially create a double cover vs adding wraps to make an incomplete book artificially complete.

 

Purposeful misrepresentation is very different than unrealistic expectations.

[shadroch]

This is my opinion. You are welcome to agree with it or not.

 

I feel if you buy a book from a dealer, and it comes back stabbed or trimmed, he should refund you the money for the book and stabbing fees.

However, if I buy a book from a collector and don't detect the restoration myself, I'm not sure I would hold that collector responsible.

It's a part of buying raw books. It's why raw books sell for less than stabbed books.

 

Your opinion may vary.

[Jeffro.]

This is my opinion. You are welcome to agree with it or not.

 

I feel if you buy a book from a dealer, and it comes back stabbed or trimmed, he should refund you the money for the book and stabbing fees.

However, if I buy a book from a collector and don't detect the restoration myself, I'm not sure I would hold that collector responsible.

It's a part of buying raw books. It's why raw books sell for less than stabbed books.

 

Your opinion may vary.

 

Stabbing books is a no no

[HarveySwick]

But if you buy a book advertised as a Double Cover from a "collector" and it turns out that the "collector" created a counterfeit Double Cover book and defrauded the buyer, that "collector" is only liable for the cost of the book and shouldn't be held accountable for any collateral costs that a buyer lost in relying upon the false representations of the "collector"?

 

This has NOTHING to do with differing opinions on a grade or undetected restoration.

[seanfingh]

 

I've never understood why people think they should get grading fees back. That is a choice that you made, not the seller. Would you expect your money back if you paid:

 

(1) to get the book framed

(2) to get the book lacquered

(3) to get the book origami-ed into a flock of tiny pterodactyls

 

What you choose to do with the book is on you - unless you discuss it beforehand.

[Doktor]

I don't disagree when it comes to buying from a collector that didn't detect the restoration. That's fair. I don't think people should be liable for a mistake or something they didn't look that hard at. There's a lot of buyer beware involved when everyone is dealing honestly.

 

But when the "collector" is willfully and actively engaging in the restoration/manipulation of the book themselves (or has direct knowledge of it that they neglect to inform buyers) & then passing it off as "as-manufactured", that's where the line is for me. That's when pretty much all costs associated with the book (book, shipping, insurance, slabbing, space on a rocket ship so it can be the first double-cover on Mars, whatever), they should be liable for. It's straight up fraud. The slabbing fees are his restitution costs, the same way someone would have restitution when they are convicted of fraud. And this restitution cost is a lot lower to go with the burden of proof being lower & the punishment being lower.

 

Especially in a case where the guy changes his story from "I didn't know, I got screwed here too" to "well, I didn't get screwed here but I didn't know" to "well, I knew but I just wanted to make a couple bucks", their credibility is shot IMO. As far as I'm concerned, he knew what he was doing & no pleas of innocence will change that opinion cause dude has not credibility.

[comix4fun]

This is my opinion. You are welcome to agree with it or not.

 

I feel if you buy a book from a dealer, and it comes back stabbed or trimmed, he should refund you the money for the book and stabbing fees.

However, if I buy a book from a collector and don't detect the restoration myself, I'm not sure I would hold that collector responsible.

It's a part of buying raw books. It's why raw books sell for less than stabbed books.

 

Your opinion may vary.

 

That would be a valid, well thought out, fact-based opinion, if it wasn't completely a misapplied analogy.

 

This isn't undetected restoration..it's fraud.

 

In any circumstance, flea market, ebay, this board, comic con, dealer, part time seller, collector to collector, when one party seeks to mislead the other to induce them to purchase something that is intentionally not what was promised ALL of the responsibility for what follows falls on the person doing the misleading.

 

When someone buys something sold under false pretenses, and they rely on the fraudulent claims as if they were valid, their damages have been expanded through no fault of their own. The reliance was created by the fraudulent act. The slabbing fees were incurred as a direct result of the seller's claim of a legitimate multi-cover book.

 

It's fine to have opinions, but if you're going to make a comparison make sure it's not Apples to Oranges.