Is Dark Knight the first comic to heat up as a Modern?

[Aweandlorder]

I guess the reason why I picked TDKR #1 as a turning point in comic book history, in reference to price & popularity appreciation, was because although admittedly I wasnt aware of the other 70s books mentioned, I was also not aware at the time of the fact that a comic book CAN turn to a collectible almost overnight. Sure, I knew that older comic books are collectibles and have appreciated tremendously in price throughout the years, but the notion that a new released comic book can have a higher price tag right of gate was a game changer for me.

The various comic shops I frequented at the time had random indie titles even months before the release of TDKR, I remember seeing TMNT for $35 standing right there over the counter and thinking to myself yeah right, he's got a prayer. Some titles like Grendel, Justice Machine, ElfQuest, Cerebus were already making the rounds but on such a low scale. They all carried an inflated price tag but no one was buying them it seemed.

The difference between TDKR #1 was that it presented a new mentality with modern mainstream comics at the time. We all heard about DCs big changes back then. This was like The New 52 back in the 80s. Byrne on Supes, Miller's on Bats. The Dark Knight Returns was NOT an obscure book, it was well promoted both in comic book stores and receiving a wide media coverage in non comic related magazines (such as Rolling Stone for instance). But as others have mentioned here, it wasnt heavily ordered for various reasons.

When it took off the way it did, its popularity, its perceived scarcity, inflated price, the whole mentality of "you cant have that its too HOT for you son, take the reprint instead" made me and I believe many others approach this market with a new vision.

And the rest as they say is history

[the blob]

As someone pointed out, Thor 337 is a book that I remember immediately went up on the wall at a crazy inflated price. Next to my childhood shop's Amazing Fantasy 15. I kid you not. And I'm pretty sure they were trying to get more than $5 for it, maybe $10 or $15.

 

I feel like toward the end of the Byrne run on X-Men those issues were being put up at $5 a piece immediately upon release, but those memories are a bit dim.

[HouseofComics.Com]

I feel like toward the end of the Byrne run on X-Men those issues were being put up at $5 a piece immediately upon release, but those memories are a bit dim.

 

That doesn't seem possible but I would believe that Byrne issues only a year or two old could be going for something like that.

[jaeldubyoo]

I feel like toward the end of the Byrne run on X-Men those issues were being put up at $5 a piece immediately upon release, but those memories are a bit dim.

 

That doesn't seem possible but I would believe that Byrne issues only a year or two old could be going for something like that.

 

As I recall, in the early 80s Byne X-Men issues automatically doubled in price once the next one hit the stands the following month. And they went up a few dollars within a few months. Many were buying multiple copies, besides the dealers that were hoarding them. That's probably why there's no shortage of X-Men available.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I feel like toward the end of the Byrne run on X-Men those issues were being put up at $5 a piece immediately upon release, but those memories are a bit dim.

 

That doesn't seem possible but I would believe that Byrne issues only a year or two old could be going for something like that.

 

As I recall, in the early 80s Byne X-Men issues automatically doubled in price once the next one hit the stands the following month. And they went up a few dollars within a few months. Many were buying multiple copies, besides the dealers that were hoarding them. That's probably why there's no shortage of X-Men available.

 

 

Well...there's no shortage of high grade copies relative to other books of the era, but...as Byrne has said more than once, and which SOOs confirm, X-Men print runs and sales weren't exceptionally high until 1982-1983....well after Byrne left the book.

 

While it's true that many were buying multiple copies, those "many" wasn't really all that many...and the sales figures support that. Buying multiples in 1980-1981 was still quite a new thing for most. After all, there was very little precedent for late run issues of any title to show a return on investment, especially when it was all about the #1 issues of the 70's, fresh in everyone's mind.

 

Relative to, say, a few short years later with books like Alpha Flight #1, Man of Steel #1, and Superman #1, the majority of buyers were still buying single copies. And it wasn't anywhere near the madness of, say, McFarlane, Lee, and Liefeld a few years after that...but it took entire relaunches to reach the crazy numbers. McFarlane's Amazing didn't result in greater sales on the title (sales actually went down slightly during his tenure), Lee made a moderate impact on Uncanny, and Liefeld, while solidly doubling New Mutants sales, only doubled them, unlike the 10 times figures of X-Force #1 on...and New Mutants sales were in the dumps at the time.

 

And...if books were "$5 upon release" (10x and more cover price), dealers would have very quickly upped their orders with each successive issue (keeping in mind that Byrne's run was three and a half years long), until supply met demand, but that's not what happened (and comic store owners weren't about to off their customers by not having the books available for cover price when new. That was a sure way to go out of business.) Rather, sales of the books slowly rose from 1977-ish until 1981, AND...sales actually went down on a few issues in the run, here and there. We know that because for both 1978 (printed in X-Men #120) and 1979 (printed in X-Men #131), the single issue nearest the filing date was lower than the sales average for the year.

 

And this was still at a time when the newsstands were receiving their copies after the Direct market, so if, say, X-Men #139 was a $5 book upon release, buyers could simply wait until they hit the newsstands, and just pay 50 cents....and there would have been many, many angry customers being charged $5/copy for brand new books.

 

It's also one of the reasons why Wolverine wasn't nearly as all-consumingly popular in that late Bronze time frame as some people suggest...which is "he was the most popular character in comics!!!" That wasn't true, and wouldn't be true until the mid 80's, at the least. In the early 80's, it was all about the X-Men, as a whole, rather than individual members of the team.

 

And, as has been thoroughly documented, Wolverine wasn't at all popular in the early days of the new X-Men with Claremont and Cockrum, and it took Byrne's arrival in late '77 to save the character from oblivion entirely.

 

But no, Byrne X-Men weren't $5 upon release. That was never the case. That would have been a phenomenon unheard of in comics at that time. After all, we're talking about books that had, at most, 50 cent cover prices (except #137.) They weren't selling that fast, and we know that by the published information we have.

 

Nerd minutiae.

 

[Prince Namor]

Dark Knight was severely under ordered by retailers, many of whom had been terribly burned by Ronin. Most comics were seventy five cents, and the retailer made 25-30 cents on them. Ronin was $2.50 and most shops ordered way too many. Each unsold copy equaled the profit from four or five X-Men sales. I remember guys scoffing at DK, as Ronin sales sucked and Bat man itself was a poor seller. Many shops ordered five- ten copies, compared to 50-75 X-Men.

I think I ordered 15, and when the buzz picked up, was able to advancements another ten.

It quickly was selling for $10-15, where HTD was selling for 20X cover the week it came out in NY.

That was pre Direct Market.

Wasn't involved when Conan and the Fourth World books came out so can't give first hand response.

 

 

I wonder if that's why the last issue of Ronin seems to be so much more difficult to find than the others - retailers had backed off the book so much by the end...

[Prince Namor]

Was HTD a conspiracy? Like they purposely printed too little of them to manufacture a collectable. Did the Marvel book say that or is that something I made up in my head? It's happening a lot more as I get older.

 

 

No. People were actively trying to "corner" the market, and the story goes that several people along the distribution line were sucking up all the copies, so that no one actually received many (or any) copies.

 

It absolutely was a "low distribution" book, as opposed to "low print run", because distribution was interrupted. It almost certainly had a print run of 200-300k, normal for #1 issues in the mid-70's.

 

That had happened with Shazam #1 two years earlier, too. The comic book world was in its "#1!!" craze, which is why you see more first issues in the 70's than in any other decade, relative to the total number of titles being published.

 

According to Chuck Rozanski (I think), people were stopping the trucks headed out of Sparta with Shazam #1, and just outright buying the entire contents on the spot.

 

Is there ever an example of a retailer actually short printing a book so that it WILL get a 'street buzz'?

 

I would think that would be an incredibly dumb and risky move as the secondary market is extremely fickle, and provides ZERO income for publishers. The single basic printing method for most publishers I see is print and sell as many as you can.

[Prince Namor]

I was too young to provide a first hand account, but all the stories I have read about Howard the Duck #1 are that it was $15+ within days of hitting the stands. That is 60x cover within days.

 

In Vancouver, BC, HtD #1 hit a monstrous $3 days after release. The same retail value as Capt America #100 vf at my LCS. <3

 

HTD #1 rated a mention about how it was an "over-night collectors item" in the next OPG (#7).

It was listed as $7.50 in mint.

 

 

I love how they say "distribution problems". Yes, it's certainly a problem when distributors were selling this book under the table in quantity and not actually "distributing" it.

 

Not only selling it under the table, but employees were walking it out the back door of distributors. (stealing). In particular, Capital Distribution had this problem in later years, which probably contributed to their demise.

[Prince Namor]

Exactly. Every couple of years I post on these boards that the only preview image I saw when preordering DKR was one blocky B&W shot of Batman and the new Robin. Not the cover for #1. So I ordered three. Then the first second I saw the cover on publication I said, oh man!

 

People who weren't involved back then don't realize how weak Batman sales were. In 1985 at Chicago ComicCon I was able to buy hand picked Ernie Chan original art Batman action pages for $5. And of course Detective was rumored to be on the cancellation block in the 80s too.

 

I had no idea this was the case for Detective, I also didn't know Batman sales were down during this time.

 

According to Comichron, Batman's total Paid circulation fell to an all time low in 1985 of 75,303!!! (Amazing Spider-man in 1985 was at 326,695)

 

1986 saw a jump to 89,747, and the success of TDKR's led to it jumping even more in 1987: 193,000

[VintageComics]

Exactly. Every couple of years I post on these boards that the only preview image I saw when preordering DKR was one blocky B&W shot of Batman and the new Robin. Not the cover for #1. So I ordered three. Then the first second I saw the cover on publication I said, oh man!

 

People who weren't involved back then don't realize how weak Batman sales were. In 1985 at Chicago ComicCon I was able to buy hand picked Ernie Chan original art Batman action pages for $5. And of course Detective was rumored to be on the cancellation block in the 80s too.

 

I had no idea this was the case for Detective, I also didn't know Batman sales were down during this time.

 

According to Comichron, Batman's total Paid circulation fell to an all time low in 1985 of 75,303!!! (Amazing Spider-man in 1985 was at 326,695)

 

1986 saw a jump to 89,747, and the success of TDKR's led to it jumping even more in 1987: 193,000

 

Cue Batman mania a year or two later with the Batman movie coming out. And that Batmania was absolute pandemonium on a level I'd never seen before, related to comics.

 

I wonder if DKR and the Batman movie were a concerted effort by DC specifically to revive Batman or it was just random co-incidence.

 

 

[HouseofComics.Com]

Great posts, everyone. I agree with RMA completely on X-Men. And yes, that's why Ronin 6 is so hard to find. Conversely, why DKR 4 is so much more common than 1. (Same delay, but everyone realized it was their last chance to stock up.)

 

DKR and Batman movie were not a concerted effort per se. The movie was delayed for years. Maybe DKR and Year One success made someone get on the ball, I don't know.

[HouseofComics.Com]

I mean, of course they want the kind of success with Batman that they had with Superman the Movie, but felt like it took forever at the time.

[1Cool]

1st book I remember selling out right when it hit the stands (thus making me go try to find a copy at an inflated price) was Thor 337. Damn book went right up on the back wall and I don't think I ever got a copy back then. I also remember hunting for was Secret Wars 4 since it sold out and the price went up pretty much right away when it hit the stands.

[shadroch]

I was too young to provide a first hand account, but all the stories I have read about Howard the Duck #1 are that it was $15+ within days of hitting the stands. That is 60x cover within days.

 

In Vancouver, BC, HtD #1 hit a monstrous $3 days after release. The same retail value as Capt America #100 vf at my LCS. <3

 

HTD #1 rated a mention about how it was an "over-night collectors item" in the next OPG (#7).

It was listed as $7.50 in mint.

 

 

I love how they say "distribution problems". Yes, it's certainly a problem when distributors were selling this book under the table in quantity and not actually "distributing" it.

 

They didn't sell it under the table. They simply sold them to people who wanted them

Newsstands didn't order comics, they simply took what they were given. Curtis shipped bundles of books to the various distributors. They broke them down and sent them to their accounts 99 percent of which knew nothing about comics. They sold what they received and sent back whatever didn't sell. If someone showed up at a distributor and offered to buy every issue of Axe Killer #1, they would do it in a heartbeat. It actually worked better for them, no distribution no returns, no book keeping. The typical newsstand never heard of Howard the Duck, and had not ordered a copy of it. There was nothing underhanded in it.

I used to buy direct from a newsstand distributor, they were open to the public one day a week. The folks there had no clue about what product they were selling any one week.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As an example of the "OMG, WE HAVE TO UP ORDERS, QUICK!!!" phenomenon, see Thor #337 and #339. When #337 came out, it was an instant sellout. It was just cool, and everyone wanted it, even though Simonson had been wokring in comics for a decade prior. It just clicked. So, of course, retailers had the ability to up their orders for #339, and certainly #340, which is why you see so many of them around compared to #337. I don't recall a collection or store stock that had 80's Thors that did NOT have #339 and #340s floating around in them.

 

If the same thing was true of Byrne X-Men...none of which were sellouts, by the way, on the scale of Thor #337 or ASM #252...you would see a sea of issues after a particular point...and it's true, #143 IS the most common of the bunch...but you don't see scads of, say, #123, or #132, or even #141. #143 is so common because it was the last Byrne issue, and people know it..and back then, books were worth something because of the artist.

 

Sure wish that were true today. Anyone want 25+ copies each of ASM #302-328...?

 

[Logan510]

I was too young to provide a first hand account, but all the stories I have read about Howard the Duck #1 are that it was $15+ within days of hitting the stands. That is 60x cover within days.

 

In Vancouver, BC, HtD #1 hit a monstrous $3 days after release. The same retail value as Capt America #100 vf at my LCS. <3

 

HTD #1 rated a mention about how it was an "over-night collectors item" in the next OPG (#7).

It was listed as $7.50 in mint.

 

 

I love how they say "distribution problems". Yes, it's certainly a problem when distributors were selling this book under the table in quantity and not actually "distributing" it.

 

They didn't sell it under the table. They simply sold them to people who wanted them

Newsstands didn't order comics, they simply took what they were given. Curtis shipped bundles of books to the various distributors. They broke them down and sent them to their accounts 99 percent of which knew nothing about comics. They sold what they received and sent back whatever didn't sell. If someone showed up at a distributor and offered to buy every issue of Axe Killer #1, they would do it in a heartbeat. It actually worked better for them, no distribution no returns, no book keeping. The typical newsstand never heard of Howard the Duck, and had not ordered a copy of it. There was nothing underhanded in it.

I used to buy direct from a newsstand distributor, they were open to the public one day a week. The folks there had no clue about what product they were selling any one week.

 

No offense, but according to what I have read and heard people talk about ( Neal Adams in several interviews ), a lot of them were selling under the table and were signing affidavits that they had destroyed "unsold" copies. So not only were they getting money back for a return that never happened, they were selling the books as well.

[shadroch]

You are mixing apple's and oranges. HTD was a sellout at every level. There were no returned copies to be destroyed or resold. HTD was bought out by speculators, mostly before they got to the sub distribution centers.

What you are referring to was very common on returned books. The MH 2 collection was the result of these practices.

HTD came out in 75/76.. Long before the Direct Market came along.

[RockMyAmadeus]

You are mixing apple's and oranges. HTD was a sellout at every level. There were no returned copies to be destroyed or resold. HTD was bought out by speculators, mostly before they got to the sub distribution centers.

What you are referring to was very common on returned books. The MH 2 collection was the result of these practices.

HTD came out in 75/76.. Long before the Direct Market came along.

 

 

No, the Direct market was already in place at that point, and had been since roughly 1973-74, mostly based on the efforts of Seuling.

 

It's interesting to hear, however, that newsstand vendors simply got what they got. Who determined that?

 

[Prince Namor]

I was too young to provide a first hand account, but all the stories I have read about Howard the Duck #1 are that it was $15+ within days of hitting the stands. That is 60x cover within days.

 

In Vancouver, BC, HtD #1 hit a monstrous $3 days after release. The same retail value as Capt America #100 vf at my LCS. <3

 

HTD #1 rated a mention about how it was an "over-night collectors item" in the next OPG (#7).

It was listed as $7.50 in mint.

 

 

I love how they say "distribution problems". Yes, it's certainly a problem when distributors were selling this book under the table in quantity and not actually "distributing" it.

 

They didn't sell it under the table. They simply sold them to people who wanted them

Newsstands didn't order comics, they simply took what they were given. Curtis shipped bundles of books to the various distributors. They broke them down and sent them to their accounts 99 percent of which knew nothing about comics. They sold what they received and sent back whatever didn't sell. If someone showed up at a distributor and offered to buy every issue of Axe Killer #1, they would do it in a heartbeat. It actually worked better for them, no distribution no returns, no book keeping. The typical newsstand never heard of Howard the Duck, and had not ordered a copy of it. There was nothing underhanded in it.

I used to buy direct from a newsstand distributor, they were open to the public one day a week. The folks there had no clue about what product they were selling any one week.

 

No offense, but according to what I have read and heard people talk about ( Neal Adams in several interviews ), a lot of them were selling under the table and were signing affidavits that they had destroyed "unsold" copies. So not only were they getting money back for a return that never happened, they were selling the books as well.

 

I have no idea what was going on with HTD back in 1976, but I remember in 1994, I was doing a show with a few friends in Kentucky, and a friend of one of my friends, who I always thought was kinda shady (he was WAY into all of the Cry for Dawn, Lady Death stuff) and.... he wanted to stop at this comic shop where he knew a guy he had been dealing with.

 

It was after hours, and I was looking around the shop while they were doing their comic deal and when I walked over to where they were at, I noticed a full short box of Shi #1, which was pretty hot at the time. I hadn't noticed but everyone had been talking quietly, so I probably sounded like a bullhorn when I said, "Oh my God! Look at all of those Shi #1's!" They all looked at me like I'd just shouted 'cocaine' into a police wire.

 

Afterwards the shady dude told me, the guy had a 'buddy' at Capital Distribution, who 'hooked him up' with hot books. Would walk right out the back door with them. Not sure if he meant that literally, but that's how I took it.

 

This has always been a shady business.