The Copper Age Gobbledygook of first published appearances in ads & fanzines

[bronze johnny]

Looking at the attempts by some eBay sellers to pass off books as first, preceding, or prototypical" appearances (see FOOM 10) had me thinking about how the Gobbledygook 1 "anomaly" has been used as a basis for trying to pass off books like FOOM 2 & 10 as significant appearances of major characters that precede the accepted first appearance and how comic book readers and collectors can define whether such attempts have merit.

 

I want to make a distinction here about how any discussion about the Gobbledygook 1 and the FOOM books differs from the passionate arguments that have been made about Hulk 180 and 181. The questions as to whether Wolverine first appeared in either book is distinguished from the FOOM fanzines since Hulk 180 and 181 were part of an ongoing comic book story. The same can be said about Darkseid's debut and the debate surrounding whether he first appeared in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134 or Forever People 1. So this is not a discussion about the merits of a first appearance within the comic book story context. FOOM was a "fanzine" book focused on Marvel Comics. There have been examples throughout comic book history of a comic book character appearing in an advertisement leading to sometimes passionate debates over whether such "in house" ads amount to defining a first appearance (see New Adventure 27 for Action Comics 1 ad with Superman).

 

Which brings us to the appearance of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in Gobbledygook 1. The Turtles make their "first published appearance" on the back cover of this scarce book just prior to Overstreet recently accepting TMNT 1 as the universal first appearance. I've been told by collectors that Gobbledygook 1's special status among Turtle collectors is the primary reason why, besides its scarcity, the book is a major key that has been further defined by the serious money it sells for on the market whenever a copy surfaces for sale. Can't argue with Turtle collectors about this since they have defined Gobbledygook's status in comic book history and collecting. The criteria defining Gobbledygook 1 and its place in Turtles history has never successfully worked for advertisements in mainstream comics. Have Superman collectors embraced New Adventure 27 with the same level of enthusiasm? Have Spawn fans sought out his first appearing in the Previews ad prior to Spawn 1? There have also been recent attempts to define appearances in fanzines as prototypes (see FOOM 2) or even as a character's first (see FOOM 10). Perhaps the collector who collects independent comic books applies a different standard to defining a character's appearance in the ads of scarce copies?

 

Turtle collectors have defined the ad in Gobbledygook 1 as a significant appearance and Overstreet and many others have accepted this definition. The market has continually supported Gobbledygook 1's status as sales of this book demonstrate. True, there has been much debate over the definition of a character's first appearance and differing interpretations have resulted in good arguments from disagreeing parties. Still, the fact is that a character's appearance in an in house ad has been defined as a significant published appearance whether any of us like it or not. What's fascinating about Gobbledygook 1 is that this "Turtles advertisement = significant published appearance" may have been exclusively defined by Turtles fans and collectors. Something that has never been achieved with such success - an instance in comic book history where the collectors of a book defined an advertisement of the characters they collected.

 

A first in comic book history that happened in the beginning of the Copper Age...

 

Best,

 

John

[oakman29]

Looking at the attempts by some eBay sellers to pass off books as first, preceding, or prototypical" appearances (see FOOM 10) had me thinking about how the Gobbledygook 1 "anomaly" has been used as a basis for trying to pass off books like FOOM 2 & 10 as significant appearances of major characters that precede the accepted first appearance and how comic book readers and collectors can define whether such attempts have merit.

 

I want to make a distinction here about how any discussion about the Gobbledygook 1 and the FOOM books differs from the passionate arguments that have been made about Hulk 180 and 181. The questions as to whether Wolverine first appeared in either book is distinguished from the FOOM fanzines since Hulk 180 and 181 were part of an ongoing comic book story. The same can be said about Darkseid's debut and the debate surrounding whether he first appeared in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen 134 or Forever People 1. So this is not a discussion about the merits of a first appearance within the comic book story context. FOOM was a "fanzine" book focused on Marvel Comics. There have been examples throughout comic book history of a comic book character appearing in an advertisement leading to sometimes passionate debates over whether such "in house" ads amount to defining a first appearance (see New Adventure 27 for Action Comics 1 ad with Superman).

 

Which brings us to the appearance of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in Gobbledygook 1. The Turtles make their "first published appearance" on the back cover of this scarce book just prior to Overstreet recently accepting TMNT 1 as the universal first appearance. I've been told by collectors that Gobbledygook 1's special status among Turtle collectors is the primary reason why, besides its scarcity, the book is a major key that has been further defined by the serious money it sells for on the market whenever a copy surfaces for sale. Can't argue with Turtle collectors about this since they have defined Gobbledygook's status in comic book history and collecting. The criteria defining Gobbledygook 1 and its place in Turtles history has never successfully worked for advertisements in mainstream comics. Have Superman collectors embraced New Adventure 27 with the same level of enthusiasm? Have Spawn fans sought out his first appearing in the Previews ad prior to Spawn 1? There have also been recent attempts to define appearances in fanzines as prototypes (see FOOM 2) or even as a character's first (see FOOM 10). Perhaps the collector who collects independent comic books applies a different standard to defining a character's appearance in the ads of scarce copies?

 

Turtle collectors have defined the ad in Gobbledygook 1 as a significant appearance and Overstreet and many others have accepted this definition. The market has continually supported Gobbledygook 1's status as sales of this book demonstrate. True, there has been much debate over the definition of a character's first appearance and differing interpretations have resulted in good arguments from disagreeing parties. Still, the fact is that a character's appearance in an in house ad has been defined as a significant published appearance whether any of us like it or not. What's fascinating about Gobbledygook 1 is that this "Turtles advertisement = significant published appearance" may have been exclusively defined by Turtles fans and collectors. Something that has never been achieved with such success - an instance in comic book history where the collectors of a book defined an advertisement of the characters they collected.

 

A first in comic book history that happened in the beginning of the Copper Age...

 

Best,

 

John

 

Also see Dead World 10 for the 1st Crow.

[Ryan.]

Gobbledygook 1 and 2 have significance as being the first, or at least extremely early, publications of Mirage and were also hand-stapled by Eastman and Laird. Further, they are available in very limited quantities. While the TMNT ad is important there are other aspects to these books that have created desirability among collectors.

[bronze johnny]

Gobbledygook 1 and 2 have significance as being the first, or at least extremely early, publications of Mirage and were also hand-stapled by Eastman and Laird. Further, they are available in very limited quantities. While the TMNT ad is important there are other aspects to these books that have created desirability among collectors.

 

Eastman and Laird could have chopped the tree down that produced the paper and it wouldn't have mattered if the Turtles were not in that back page ad. The same is true for it being Mirage's first book- no Turtles, no Mirage. No Turtles success, would anyone remember Eastman and Laird? Sure, those are distinctions that have their place but is it Is really debatable that Gobbledygook 1, Mirage, and Eastman and Laird would be anywhere near the success they had with their creation, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? In this case, it is the creation and the resulting phenomenon that takes precedent over the creators and their publishing company.

 

Best,

John

[Ryan.]

I think that all goes without saying...

[Aweandlorder]

Atom Tan #1 is my all time grail which reminds me alot of Gobbledygook in terms of preview/appearance

 

 

[image courtesy of EwanUK]

[EwanUK]

A very similar Copper-Age example (though somewhat cheaper) is Jamie Hewlett's Tank Girl

 

The true first appearance is in the self-published fanzine "Atomtan" published in 1987 and limited to about 200 copies (2 printings). This has sold for between £100-£200 when available.

 

Because this fanzine is so rare, the generally accepted first appearance is in Deadline no.1, from 1988. This can sell for £40-50 in high grade. It's not rare by any means but scarce in comparison to American comics on the same era.

 

(BTW Atomtan has a 2nd issue which had Hewlett art, but no Tank Girl, this sells for about £100)

 

Overall, I'm of the camp that sees a first appearance as a first appearance - unless it's very specifically an in-house advert.

 

e.g. Hulk no.180 is absolutely, undoubtably and totally Wolverine's 1st appearance! It's not a "cameo" either.

The house-ad in DD no.115 is not! But a nice to have.

 

Miracleman is definitely not MM no.1 or Warrior no.1, but Daredevils no.7.

Marvelman is not Warrior no.1, it's Marvelman no.25

 

Dredd is 2000AD Prog no.2

Not Prog 1 (ad) or the various other IPC comics with previews, though again all cool to have

 

So... yes Gook is TMNT's 1st appearance IMO, but TMNT no.1 is as important

 

 

[EwanUK]

Atom Tan #1 is my all time grail which reminds me alot of Gobbledygook in terms of preview/appearance

 

 

[image courtesy of EwanUK]

 

amazing co-incidence of thought!

[Aweandlorder]

A very similar Copper-Age example (though somewhat cheaper) is Jamie Hewlett's Tank Girl

 

The true first appearance is in the self-published fanzine "Atomtan" published in 1987 and limited to about 200 copies (2 printings). This has sold for between £100-£200 when available.

 

Because this fanzine is so rare, the generally accepted first appearance is in Deadline no.1, from 1988. This can sell for £40-50 in high grade. It's not rare by any means but scarce in comparison to American comics on the same era.

 

(BTW Atomtan has a 2nd issue which had Hewlett art, but no Tank Girl, this sells for about £100)

 

Overall, I'm of the camp that sees a first appearance as a first appearance - unless it's very specifically an in-house advert.

 

e.g. Hulk no.180 is absolutely, undoubtably and totally Wolverine's 1st appearance! It's not a "cameo" either.

The house-ad in DD no.115 is not! But a nice to have.

 

Miracleman is definitely not MM no.1 or Warrior no.1, but Daredevils no.7.

Marvelman is not Warrior no.1, it's Marvelman no.25

 

Dredd is 2000AD Prog no.2

Not Prog 1 (ad) or the various other IPC comics with previews, though again all cool to have

 

So... yes Gook is TMNT's 1st appearance IMO, but TMNT no.1 is as important

 

 

Great analogy/ies

[Lazyboy]

A very similar Copper-Age example (though somewhat cheaper) is Jamie Hewlett's Tank Girl

 

The true first appearance is in the self-published fanzine "Atomtan" published in 1987 and limited to about 200 copies (2 printings). This has sold for between £100-£200 when available.

 

Because this fanzine is so rare, the generally accepted first appearance is in Deadline no.1, from 1988. This can sell for £40-50 in high grade. It's not rare by any means but scarce in comparison to American comics on the same era.

 

(BTW Atomtan has a 2nd issue which had Hewlett art, but no Tank Girl, this sells for about £100)

 

Overall, I'm of the camp that sees a first appearance as a first appearance - unless it's very specifically an in-house advert.

 

e.g. Hulk no.180 is absolutely, undoubtably and totally Wolverine's 1st appearance! It's not a "cameo" either.

 

Call it what you want, it's Wolverine's first appearance. It's a lame single-panel appearance that only exists to promote the next issue, but it's the first time Wolverine appeared in a story. It doesn't matter that removing him from the issue wouldn't affect the story in that issue at all.

 

The house-ad in DD no.115 is not! But a nice to have.

 

Even if ads counted as appearances, house ads that came out between 180 and 181 couldn't be the first appearance of Wolverine.

 

Miracleman is definitely not MM no.1 or Warrior no.1, but Daredevils no.7.

 

You are kidding, right?

 

Marvelman is not Warrior no.1, it's Marvelman no.25

 

That's better, but Marvelman 25 is also Miracleman's first appearance, since they're the exact same character.

 

Dredd is 2000AD Prog no.2

Not Prog 1 (ad) or the various other IPC comics with previews, though again all cool to have

 

So... yes Gook is TMNT's 1st appearance IMO, but TMNT no.1 is as important

 

 

It's an ad! The Tank Girl image that was posted looks like an ad, too.

 

Why would the 2000AD Dredd ad not be his first appearance but the Gobbledygook TMNT ad is their first appearance? That doesn't make any sense.

[EwanUK]

Call it what you want, it's Wolverine's first appearance. It's a lame single-panel appearance that only exists to promote the next issue, but it's the first time Wolverine appeared in a story. It doesn't matter that removing him from the issue wouldn't affect the story in that issue at all.

 

Even if ads counted as appearances, house ads that came out between 180 and 181 couldn't be the first appearance of Wolverine.

 

You are kidding, right?

 

That's better, but Marvelman 25 is also Miracleman's first appearance, since they're the exact same character.

 

It's an ad! The Tank Girl image that was posted looks like an ad, too.

 

Why would the 2000AD Dredd ad not be his first appearance but the Gobbledygook TMNT ad is their first appearance? That doesn't make any sense.

 

erm... I think we agree then on Wolverine. The quality of the appearance (i.e. "lame") is irrelevant surely? Certainly more of Wolvie in IH 180 then then is of Darkseid in JO 134!

 

Daredevils 7.. kidding? well perhaps a little but no, I don't consider that Miracleman and that Marvelman the same character (Nor do Marvel BTW )

 

The Tank Girl image is simply a piece or art / poster in the fanzine. Certainly not an advert.

 

Making sense: I think the lack of consistency is down to the difference between professional and amateur publiations. Both Dredd and Wolvie would have been created, drawn and made ready for print significantly before their previews were published.

 

 

[Aweandlorder]

The Tank Girl doodle is certainly not an advert. Hewlett just drew her for sh**s and grins

TMNT IS an Advert in Gobb

[comiconxion]

Do any of the people commenting here have copies of Gobbledygook #1 & #2? Not only is there an ad on the back for Turtles #1, but it presents a 4 parts of the first appearance of Fugiotoid (who became part of the Turtles universe in issue #5) as well as a pinup of a Triceraton (which also became part of that same storyline). So, the Fugitoid story and art in it laid the foundation for the Turtles universe that was to follow.

 

People put too much focus on the ad on the back.

 

And, it's high price comes from the fact that there are only 50 copies of each that were printed. Turtlemania Golds (for which there are only 10 copies) go for even more than Gobbledygooks these days and they are even less important, but Turtle completists really want them.

[Ryan.]

I had counterfeit versions of 1 and 2 but sold them awhile back.

[Aweandlorder]

Do any of the people commenting here have copies of Gobbledygook #1 & #2? Not only is there an ad on the back for Turtles #1, but it presents a 4 parts of the first appearance of Fugiotoid (who became part of the Turtles universe in issue #5) as well as a pinup of a Triceraton (which also became part of that same storyline). So, the Fugitoid story and art in it laid the foundation for the Turtles universe that was to follow.

 

People put too much focus on the ad on the back.

 

And, it's high price comes from the fact that there are only 50 copies of each that were printed. Turtlemania Golds (for which there are only 10 copies) go for even more than Gobbledygooks these days and they are even less important, but Turtle completists really want them.

 

 

 

The reason why this is a sought after magazine is because its the first Eastman & Laird production. Kinda like Albedo 0, Vootie, or much of early Barry Blair publications to a lesser extent

[bronze johnny]

A very similar Copper-Age example (though somewhat cheaper) is Jamie Hewlett's Tank Girl

 

The true first appearance is in the self-published fanzine "Atomtan" published in 1987 and limited to about 200 copies (2 printings). This has sold for between £100-£200 when available.

 

Because this fanzine is so rare, the generally accepted first appearance is in Deadline no.1, from 1988. This can sell for £40-50 in high grade. It's not rare by any means but scarce in comparison to American comics on the same era.

 

(BTW Atomtan has a 2nd issue which had Hewlett art, but no Tank Girl, this sells for about £100)

 

Overall, I'm of the camp that sees a first appearance as a first appearance - unless it's very specifically an in-house advert.

 

e.g. Hulk no.180 is absolutely, undoubtably and totally Wolverine's 1st appearance! It's not a "cameo" either.

The house-ad in DD no.115 is not! But a nice to have.

 

Miracleman is definitely not MM no.1 or Warrior no.1, but Daredevils no.7.

Marvelman is not Warrior no.1, it's Marvelman no.25

 

Dredd is 2000AD Prog no.2

Not Prog 1 (ad) or the various other IPC comics with previews, though again all cool to have

 

So... yes Gook is TMNT's 1st appearance IMO, but TMNT no.1 is as important

 

 

intersting comparisons

 

Since you maintain that Gobbledygook is the first appearance of the Turtles, then this means that you are of the opinion that an ad can serve as a first appearance?

[Readcomix]

Seems like Gobbledygook has a perfect storm of sorts on its side, not just the turtles ad. While some ads may in fact be the first physical appearance of a character, they are not the first appearance in continuity, so as a general rule I don't see teaser ads overtaking 1st appearances in actual storylines.

 

I do see them increasing as collectibles, as awareness grows. Foom 2/Hulk 181 is a great example.

 

My latest fave is Action Comics 251 -- full-page ad for the next issue that looks like it was the close runner-up alternate cover to Action 252. No related price movement that I've seen, but it's there and it's cool as hell, especially when you're priced out of the key book.

 

Heck, I even chased down a My Greatest Adventure #79 because it teases the Doom Patrol intro in the next issue, except it refers to them as the Legion of the Strange. I do NOT plan to retire off it; that was just a crazy collector's nature thing.

[ft88]

Then there's ads outside of comics in a Bud Plant catalog.

 

I am sure I sold this for way too little.

 

[Readcomix]

Then there's ads outside of comics in a Bud Plant catalog.

 

I am sure I sold this for way to little.

 

 

 

Yep, I bet you did! Heck, I could've easily tossed one, not thinking.

[bronze johnny]

Then there's ads outside of comics in a Bud Plant catalog.

 

I am sure I sold this for way to little.

 

 

That's a great piece of Copper Age and Turtle history

 

I'm curious to know what this would sell for? I can see CGC giving it no grade for a page submission. The history of the Copper Age's greatest creation...