General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[Spider-Dan]

This book was in a 9.4 blue label holder. I cracked it and got it signed by Steve Englehart. If I ever decided to sell it, is the proposal that I have to disclose what it was before? Also, this is not hypothetical.

 

No, you don't have to.

 

But if it were me, I would. I certainly would on a big ticket item like an old SA highgrade book with a four grand asking price. Indeed I did so the one time I sold a book that fits the bill. And if you don't, and someone else knows that it used to be graded two units lower, be prepared that they might provide the information that you've chosen not to.

 

Bob, that is part of the issue as I see it. Whether you are right or wrong being left completely aside, if this becomes the precedent, then the precedent that is set is not just going to obtain for multi-thousand dollar SA books. If the consensus is that this is an issue (like pressing was) then it will be important to be consistent across the Board.

 

And even though I consider it to be a non-issue (as i did pressing) I will provide in my sales threads all the information that the Boards determine to be appropriate.

 

So is Bob an outlier, or is this something that has consensus?

Outlier.

 

+1

[N/A]

This book was in a 9.4 blue label holder. I cracked it and got it signed by Steve Englehart. If I ever decided to sell it, is the proposal that I have to disclose what it was before? Also, this is not hypothetical.

 

No.

 

But if it were me, I would. I certainly would on a big ticket item like an old SA highgrade book with a four grand asking price. And if you don't, and someone else knows that it used to be graded two units lower, be prepared that they might provide the information that you've chosen not to.

 

"No" - So then YOU have the Authority to pick and choose what has to be disclosed based on dollar value?

 

You seem confused. All of us have responsibility in keeping the commerce in our marketplace of high integrity.

 

Im not confused. Based on your "No" answer, your contradicting yourself

 

You seemed very clear-cut when you started this campaign against me, now your talking out both sides of your mouth.

 

Do you have to disclose or not??

 

No. But you should, because it provides information useful to a subset of prospective buyers. It's selling with full integrity. And if you don't, you should be prepared to have the information posted by somebody else that has it. And not turn to threats and obscenities when it happens.

 

There's no inconsistency.

 

And thanks again for the obscenity.

 

 

I was hoping to take the stance but I just wanted to point out I agree with your response here except about where that information gets posted. Is this an old subject now? I'll

[N/A]

This book was in a 9.4 blue label holder. I cracked it and got it signed by Steve Englehart. If I ever decided to sell it, is the proposal that I have to disclose what it was before? Also, this is not hypothetical.

 

No, you don't have to.

 

But if it were me, I would. I certainly would on a big ticket item like an old SA highgrade book with a four grand asking price. Indeed I did so the one time I sold a book that fits the bill. And if you don't, and someone else knows that it used to be graded two units lower, be prepared that they might provide the information that you've chosen not to.

 

Bob, that is part of the issue as I see it. Whether you are right or wrong being left completely aside, if this becomes the precedent, then the precedent that is set is not just going to obtain for multi-thousand dollar SA books. If the consensus is that this is an issue (like pressing was) then it will be important to be consistent across the Board.

 

And even though I consider it to be a non-issue (as i did pressing) I will provide in my sales threads all the information that the Boards determine to be appropriate.

 

So is Bob an outlier, or is this something that has consensus?

Outlier.

 

+1

 

There would appear to be a sizable minority that would appreciate this type of information.

[namisgr]

This book was in a 9.4 blue label holder. I cracked it and got it signed by Steve Englehart. If I ever decided to sell it, is the proposal that I have to disclose what it was before? Also, this is not hypothetical.

 

No.

 

But if it were me, I would. I certainly would on a big ticket item like an old SA highgrade book with a four grand asking price. And if you don't, and someone else knows that it used to be graded two units lower, be prepared that they might provide the information that you've chosen not to.

 

"No" - So then YOU have the Authority to pick and choose what has to be disclosed based on dollar value?

 

You seem confused. All of us have responsibility in keeping the commerce in our marketplace of high integrity.

 

Im not confused. Based on your "No" answer, your contradicting yourself

 

You seemed very clear-cut when you started this campaign against me, now your talking out both sides of your mouth.

 

Do you have to disclose or not??

 

No. But you should, because it provides information useful to a subset of prospective buyers. It's selling with full integrity. And if you don't, you should be prepared to have the information posted by somebody else that has it. And not turn to threats and obsenities.

 

No threats here. And Cmon its almost 2012 azz isnt obscene

 

What I dont understand is if YOU were interested in the FF as you claimed earlier, that it would be a nice upgrade for you, why not just send me a PM and ask me?? Is it because I told you I would never sell books to you because of they way you treated me in the Green River incident? Or is it you get kicks out of doing detective work thinking your busting people? I dont get it...

 

That's true, you don't get it.

 

What was there to send you a pm about, Dan? I own an FF26 in 9.2 and, to learn more about your pricing and the availability of other copies, I went on the Link. I found your copy in an old 9.0 off-white slab. It's the same book without a doubt, and I didn't need to ask you if it was.

 

Like I posted before, and not everyone may agree with this, but to me a two grade unit change on a four thousand dollar comic is important information to provide prospective buyers. I know I felt compelled to provide it when I had a big ticket book go through this circumstance. It made me suspect that perhaps your 9.4 copy might be a softly graded one, and armed with the information about the earlier grade along with the two scans I decided to pass on it.

 

It's an interesting strategy you're taking, Dan, by playing the aggrieved party, but you witheld information about your FF26 that is important to a subset of prospective buyers. Now that the information is out in the open, your customer base is much better informed for making buying decisions that they'll be satisfied with. I'm sure you want that satisfaction from your customer base.

 

I also think you should be upfront with what you know about the TOS65 you're offering for sale.

[Spider-Dan]

This book was in a 9.4 blue label holder. I cracked it and got it signed by Steve Englehart. If I ever decided to sell it, is the proposal that I have to disclose what it was before? Also, this is not hypothetical.

 

No.

 

But if it were me, I would. I certainly would on a big ticket item like an old SA highgrade book with a four grand asking price. And if you don't, and someone else knows that it used to be graded two units lower, be prepared that they might provide the information that you've chosen not to.

 

"No" - So then YOU have the Authority to pick and choose what has to be disclosed based on dollar value?

 

You seem confused. All of us have responsibility in keeping the commerce in our marketplace of high integrity.

 

Im not confused. Based on your "No" answer, your contradicting yourself

 

You seemed very clear-cut when you started this campaign against me, now your talking out both sides of your mouth.

 

Do you have to disclose or not??

 

No. But you should, because it provides information useful to a subset of prospective buyers. It's selling with full integrity. And if you don't, you should be prepared to have the information posted by somebody else that has it. And not turn to threats and obsenities.

 

No threats here. And Cmon its almost 2012 azz isnt obscene

 

What I dont understand is if YOU were interested in the FF as you claimed earlier, that it would be a nice upgrade for you, why not just send me a PM and ask me?? Is it because I told you I would never sell books to you because of they way you treated me in the Green River incident? Or is it you get kicks out of doing detective work thinking your busting people? I dont get it...

 

That's true, you don't get it.

 

What was there to send you a pm about, Dan? I own an FF26 in 9.2 and, to learn more about your pricing and the availability of other copies, I went on the Link. I found your copy in an old 9.0 off-white slab. It's the same book without a doubt.

 

Like I posted before, and not everyone may agree with this, but to me a two grade unit change on a four thousand dollar comic is important information to provide prospective buyers. I know I felt compelled to provide it when I had a big ticket book go through this circumstance. It made me suspect that perhaps your 9.4 copy might be a softly graded one, and so I decided to pass on it.

 

It's an interesting strategy you're taking, Dan, by playing the wounded party, but the reality is that you witheld information about your FF26 that is important to a subset of prospective buyers. Now that the information is out in the open, your customer base is much better informed for making buying decisions that they'll be satisfied with. You should want that from your customer base.

 

Im not playing victim. You seem to have some personal vendetta against me, and thats fine, I dont care. Makes things interesting.

 

Bottom line is this... You jumped in MY sales thread where you didnt belong. I asked you after you PM'd me grief for the Green River book to Please dont post in my threads again. If you've seen my sales threads (you obviously have) Its simple.. Book - Grade - Price.. Any question - Feel free to PM me. I dont desribe any "soft corners", "printer marks", etc... All that stuff can be answered through PM. Its NOT YOUR JOB to add your comments. If you feel Im being dishonest post it here. NOT in my thread.

[MrBedrock]

 

Do you have to disclose or not??

No. You don't have to disclose. But you do have to be prepared for the instance where someone else does the disclosing for you. The issue here is whether that other person has the right to do that. And where is that appropriate.

[namisgr]

. If you feel Im being dishonest post it here. NOT in my thread.

 

I don't think it's a matter of dishonesty, Dan, just deception by omission.

 

Since you want this thread to serve as the conduit of information, I'll take you up on it.

 

I believe the TOS65 cgc 9.6 you are offering for sale used to be graded by CGC as a 9.2. Is that right or wrong?

[seanfingh]

 

His thread states that it used to be a 9.2

[MrBedrock]

You seem to have some personal vendetta against me

I doubt it is personal. I'm pretty sure Bob would have made the same information available in any sales thread that he felt strongly about.

[namisgr]

His thread states that it used to be a 9.2

 

(thumbs u

 

I appreciate, Dan, that you've provided this useful information.

[namisgr]

You seem to have some personal vendetta against me

I doubt it is personal. I'm pretty sure Bob would have made the same information available in any sales thread that he felt strongly about.

 

This is true. My personal vendetta is against Mr. Evans.

[Spider-Dan]

 

Do you have to disclose or not??

No. You don't have to disclose. But you do have to be prepared for the instance where someone else does the disclosing for you. The issue here is whether that other person has the right to do that. And where is that appropriate.

 

I agree. In the appropriate place (thumbs u

[MrBedrock]

Whether you are right or wrong being left completely aside, if this becomes the precedent, then the precedent that is set is not just going to obtain for multi-thousand dollar SA books. If the consensus is that this is an issue (like pressing was) then it will be important to be consistent across the Board.

Whether Bob is right or wrong is exactly the precedent. We can't leave it aside. The issue is not whether you would need to disclose what prior grade your SS Avengers was. The issue is if someone else knew what prior grade it was do they have a right to tell everyone else. And if so, where do they present that info.

 

No one seems to get up in arms when someone posts a prior grade on an auction lot in Heritage, ComicLink, etc. But if someone makes those same claims against a fellow boardie in their sales thread all hell breaks loose.

[skypinkblu]

I remember when minutiae in comic collecting was defined as not wanting books with chipping, or steering away from corner creases. People would call those people anal in the day.

 

Minutiae has been redefined for a new generation, and the difference of view is as different as a hand held magnifying glass to an electron microscope.

 

I also remember the serious problems this hobby has faced over the years, the undisclosed restoration, the trimming, the Eastern File copies, etc etc.

 

Perhaps we've moved beyond the serious problems in the hobby enough to where anything, and from the looks of it ANYTHING, can be deemed a serious problem.

 

Combine that with the new age minutiae collector mentality we are seeing lately and you've got federal cases being opened all up and down the line.

 

Sometimes, I long for a return to the days of 2 grades, Good and Fine/Mint.

 

I'm with you, only I'll stick to Good and VG;)

 

I honestly had no idea it was such a big deal to keep these records, and make disclosures, but since I've cracked a total of one book (and only because the pages were out of order)...I guess I'm looking at it from another perspective.

 

 

I learned something today...I never thought of how difficult it would be for the people for whom the hobby consists of just trying to get the highest grade, whether to flip or keep to disclose as much as I would be able to disclose. The numbers would certainly be much higher and it would become a job in of itself.

 

Now I think I understand why there is so much whining about disclosing...it's like homework..

 

 

My own concern is not so much with minutiae, but with the possibility of fraud...there have just been too many unsavory incidents over the years and I am certainly not accusing anyone in this thread of fraud, it's just the reason I'd prefer transactions to be as open as possible.

 

I certainly respect the viewpoint of the other posters here and I get Sean's "precedent" concern.

 

Could be a LOT of Homework.

[MrBedrock]

My personal vendetta is against Mr. Evans.

I need to start some sales threads.

 

[Spider-Dan]

Whether you are right or wrong being left completely aside, if this becomes the precedent, then the precedent that is set is not just going to obtain for multi-thousand dollar SA books. If the consensus is that this is an issue (like pressing was) then it will be important to be consistent across the Board.

Whether Bob is right or wrong is exactly the precedent. We can't leave it aside. The issue is not whether you would need to disclose what prior grade your SS Avengers was. The issue is if someone else knew what prior grade it was do they have a right to tell everyone else. And if so, where do they present that info.

 

No one seems to get up in arms when someone posts a prior grade on an auction lot in Heritage, ComicLink, etc. But if someone makes those same claims against a fellow boardie in their sales thread all hell breaks loose.

 

Thats not the issue for Bob. He's made that clear when he chimed in on my thread without 1st asking me about it, or bringing it up in any other forum. (This makes twice for him) He seems pretty clear on that.

 

The issue is weather or not I should have disclosed prior grades or not.

[DrWatson]

I don't think it's a matter of dishonesty, just deception by omission.

It is not being deceptive to leave out information such as, "This book used to a 9.2, but became a 9.6 on a straight resubmission."

 

To say that listing the book for sale as a 9.6 and NOT stating that it used to a 9.2 is deceptive is whack-a-doddle.

[DR.X]

The issue is not whether you would need to disclose what prior grade your SS Avengers was. The issue is if someone else knew what prior grade it was do they have a right to tell everyone else. And if so, where do they present that info.

 

 

+1

 

And this could become a much bigger problem. We have people on these boards ( and elswhere ) that crack and resub. Crack and press and re-sub, and on and on. There are alot of books in the mix now that have exchanged hands many times, so there's a lot of history somewhere about these books. This could really turn into something more than this one incident. Where does it stop.

 

DR.X

 

[MrBedrock]

 

The issue is weather or not I should have disclosed prior grades or not.

No Dan, it really is not about you or your threads. I think most folks would present their sales threads exactly as you do. Certainly in other forums (auctions, ebay etc.) comics are presented for sale exactly as yours. Personally I have no problem with listing a book for sale at its present grade. But I also understand that there are folks who want more info. And there are folks who are diligent in investigating for info. You just happened to have a few books that fall into the easily investigated category. It's part of the business when upgrading books previously bought publicly. That info is easily accessible and out there for those who choose to look. Bob looked, he found, and he presented that info where he thought it would reach the people interested in it. Your books, your thread. It could have been anyone who had the same set of circumstances. But luck of the draw for you.

[Spider-Dan]

 

The issue is weather or not I should have disclosed prior grades or not.

No Dan, it really is not about you or your threads. I think most folks would present their sales threads exactly as you do. Certainly in other forums (auctions, ebay etc.) comics are presented for sale exactly as yours. Personally I have no problem with listing a book for sale at its present grade. But I also understand that there are folks who want more info. And there are folks who are diligent in investigating for info. You just happened to have a few books that fall into the easily investigated category. It's part of the business when upgrading books previously bought publicly. That info is easily accessible and out there for those who choose to look. Bob looked, he found, and he presented that info where he thought it would reach the people interested in it. Your books, your thread. It could have been anyone who had the same set of circumstances. But luck of the draw for you.

 

I understand, but I dont want a reputaion of "dishonesty", or "deceptiveness". Because its just NOT true. Ive worked too hard within these boards to be tarnished by someone else opinion of what's to be disclosed or not. And what he's doing is just that, creating that image of me. This is the 2nd time he's stuck his nose where it didnt belong. Im not trying to hide anything! Proof is in the thread. Since Bob's comment, Ive sold nothing. I know its Christmas time, but not even a PM! Coincidence?? You tell me...