DC Copper/Modern Keys 1 1

[Lazyboy]

3 minutes ago, valiantman said:

If a particular variant is a key issue, but the other versions of the same comic aren't key... that's a weird definition of "key" when the contents don't matter. 

A variant may be valuable, but it can't be key if the issue isn't a key. Value doesn't make keys.

40 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Superman Bradman isn't on the list for obvious reasons (not enough exist), but it's probably on a lot of people's lists for key D.C. Copper/Modern.

That book is not even close to being a key. It's just rare.

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

4 hours ago, valiantman said:

Superman 75 (1993) 3,266 submissions

Superman 75...platinum...polybag sealed.

[FutureFlash]

4 hours ago, valiantman said:

 

 

 

Valiant, are the stat man! Great list.

Other keys that I can think of and still pretty cheap.

Action Comics #645 (First Maxima)

Action Comics #698 (First Checkmate)

New Teen Titans #26 (First Terra)

Justice League (1987) #1 (First Maxwell Lord)

Green Lantern (Vol 3) #48 (First Kyle Rayner -Green Lantern)

Flash (Vol 2) #92 (First Impulse)

Legends #1 (First Amanda Waller)

Spectre (Vol 3) #54 (First Terry Holt -Mr. Terrific II)

Wonder Woman (Vol 2) #105 (Cassandra Sandsmark -Wonder Girl)

Zero Hour #1 (Jack Knight -Starman)

Stars and Stripe #0 (Courtney Whitmore -Stargirl)

Deathstroke (1992) #15 (Rose Wilson -Ravager)

Infinite Crisis #3/#5 (Jamie Reyes -Blue Beetle)

There are a ton more.

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

If a particular variant is a key issue, but the other versions of the same comic aren't key... that's a weird definition of "key" when the contents don't matter. 

A variant may be valuable, but it can't be key if the issue isn't a key. Value doesn't make keys.

2 hours ago, valiantman said:

Superman Bradman isn't on the list for obvious reasons (not enough exist), but it's probably on a lot of people's lists for key D.C. Copper/Modern.

That book is not even close to being a key. It's just rare.

Our view of "key issues" in the Copper/Modern Age is driven by the examples/tradition we have from earlier ages.

Going back to the Golden Age, we have several examples of books that are only "key" because of their value, or because of their rarity, or because the cover is nice (or all three... Suspense #3).

 

I can see the argument both ways.  It doesn't matter what happens inside Suspense #3, because the cover is in demand and rare.

Should it matter what happens inside Amazing Spider-man #667 if there's a cover that's in demand and rare?

If the contents don't matter on some Golden Age books being key, then is the difference "one cover" versus "multiple covers"?

Superman Bradman is closer to being a Golden Age key (only hundreds exist, and the contents don't matter) than it is to being a Modern Age variant (where thousands exist, but only hundreds have the variant, and the contents don't matter).

[Martin Sinescu]

1 hour ago, Gatsby77 said:

Clearly # 655's on the list (first Damien, right?)

But what about -- is it # 635 (first Jason Todd as Red Hood)? Read recently that it's a $60-$75 book.

Batman Annual 25? Was this the issue we discover Jason Todd's alive? Or was it the *alternate version* of Batman 429 where he lives? I forget. But is this still considered key?

Are there other random post-2004 $25-$40 books that are worth knowing about?

Yes on all 3 counts. Post-Hush I'd say 635, 655, 666 are the big ones. 638, 656, 663, 686 and 713 are all significant but definitely not on the same level. Annual 25 was where we found out Jason's post-death origin and the second printing is a solid $20-25 (both 1st and 2nd are hard to find NM). Detectives through this time period are thinner, although the Dini run is excellent, especially the Joker issue 826, but 871 and 880 are the standouts, with 850, 853 and 881 worth holding onto as well.

[Martin Sinescu]

22 minutes ago, FutureFlash said:

Valiant, are the stat man! Great list.

Other keys that I can think of and still pretty cheap.

Action Comics #645 (First Maxima)

Action Comics #698 (First Checkmate)

New Teen Titans #26 (First Terra)

Justice League (1987) #1 (First Maxwell Lord)

Green Lantern (Vol 3) #48 (First Kyle Rayner -Green Lantern)

Flash (Vol 2) #92 (First Impulse)

Legends #1 (First Amanda Waller)

Spectre (Vol 3) #54 (First Terry Holt -Mr. Terrific II)

Wonder Woman (Vol 2) #105 (Cassandra Sandsmark -Wonder Girl)

Zero Hour #1 (Jack Knight -Starman)

Stars and Stripe #0 (Courtney Whitmore -Stargirl)

Deathstroke (1992) #15 (Rose Wilson -Ravager)

Infinite Crisis #3/#5 (Jamie Reyes -Blue Beetle)

There are a ton more.

Yup, good stuff. 1st Miss Martian, 1st Artemis, 1st Arsenal to name a few more.

[Martin Sinescu]

Oh, and I saw mention of the Hughes covers earlier and I was going to say the same thing. Catwoman, Zatanna, Wonder Woman, etc. Hughes' covers have really taken off. Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes variant, too.  Also, a Batgirl #12 Artgerm cover recently sold for $100 raw (listed as a 9.6). There's just tons of stuff.

[Lazyboy]

5 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Our view of "key issues" in the Copper/Modern Age is driven by the examples/tradition we have from earlier ages.

What "view" is there? A key issue is an important issue, not a popular or valuable or rare issue. Of course, a key can be any or all of those things, but none of them makes a key.

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

Going back to the Golden Age, we have several examples of books that are only "key" because of their value, or because of their rarity, or because the cover is nice (or all three... Suspense #3).

 

I can see the argument both ways.  It doesn't matter what happens inside Suspense #3, because the cover is in demand and rare.

Should it matter what happens inside Amazing Spider-man #667 if there's a cover that's in demand and rare?

If the contents don't matter on some Golden Age books being key, then is the difference "one cover" versus "multiple covers"?

Superman Bradman is closer to being a Golden Age key (only hundreds exist, and the contents don't matter) than it is to being a Modern Age variant (where thousands exist, but only hundreds have the variant, and the contents don't matter).

Contents don't matter = unimportant = NOT KEY. Suspense Comics 3 is valuable because it has a popular cover (demand) and it's rare, especially in higher grades (supply).

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, Lazyboy said:

Contents don't matter = unimportant = NOT KEY. Suspense Comics 3 is valuable because it has a popular cover (demand) and it's rare, especially in higher grades (supply).

I'm pretty sure some Golden Age collectors would argue that Suspense Comics #3 is absolutely a key issue... but I'll let them do so (if they happen to find themselves in this topic which is titled something completely unrelated). 

[ExNihilo]

2 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

A key issue is an important issue, not a popular or valuable or rare issue. Of course, a key can be any or all of those things, but none of them makes a key.

Conversely, one could argue that a first appearance alone doesn't make it a key issue.  First appearance of a popular/important character is most definitely key (there's no dispute there), but first appearance of more obscure or, dare i say, not popular characters wouldn't strike me as key.  Like the first appearance of Antivenom, I wouldn't presume to be a key.  Now of course, that could all change should the character make a resurgence or something else that increases interest.  Then again, i'm still new to all of this so just my

 

Ninja edit: i was recollecting last night about how I could find copies of Infinity Gauntlet #1 in $0.25 or $1 bins.  But suddenly because of movie hype, it's suddenly getting called out as a key issue and costing $20 on eBay.  Just another example of books that could be argued as key (or against it).

Edited August 9, 2017 by ExNihilo

[Lazyboy]

13 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

i was recollecting last night about how I could find copies of Infinity Gauntlet #1 in $0.25 or $1 bins.  But suddenly because of movie hype, it's suddenly getting called out as a key issue and costing $20 on eBay.  Just another example of books that could be argued as key (or against it).

Attention creates demand. For comics, any increase in demand will almost certainly be accompanied by an increase in value, since supply is fixed. Of course, that increase may be short-lived due to the supply becoming more easily available and/or interest shifting to the next big thing.

An increase in value doesn't necessarily mean a book is a key, although keys are more likely to see a bump from movie hype. The main type of non-key issues that benefit from movie hype are those that are related to the movie plot, like the Infinity Gauntlet mini (don't get me started on the Infinity War mini getting a bump because of the title ).

[Gatsby77]

But at least Infinty Gauntlet _deserves_ to be a key.

That series (and all of the tie-ins) was my generation's Secret Wars.

Sure, there's no Secret Wars # 8 Spidey costume origin, but this was _the event_ of 1990/1991 (whichever). With Silver Surfer 50 kicking it off.

And suddenly a whole generation of folks looking to backfill the 70s Thanos-Warlock-Starlin saga, as well as Silver Surfer 34, Thanos Quest, etc.

I even pre-ordered from Previews a limited edition copy of Infinity Gauntlet # 1 signed by Perez in "Platinum" ink for $30. One of the favorite books in my collection, albeit now rendered worthless since it was well before the CGC signature series era.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Gatsby77

[ExNihilo]

2 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

And suddenly a whole generation of folks looking to backfill the 70s Thanos-Warlock-Starlin saga, as well as Silver Surfer 34, Thanos Quest, etc.

This is me.  I went back to look at my old Infinity Gauntlet/Silver Surfer books and saw my collection began at Silver Surfer 50, and that my copies of Infinity Gauntlet were in less than pristine condition because I had read them so much.

But wholeheartedly agree that Infinity Gauntlet deserves to be a key.  People upselling Infinity War on the title alone either don't know anything about the story and/or are looking to profit off the shared movie title.

[revat]

i don't think there's hard and fast rules, and obviously some amount of subjectivity.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Here is two I like because of just reading them lately.

I really was surprised how good Darkhawk was as a read. Solid series lasted 50 issues.

Also Booster Gold is cool in a Deadpool kind of way.

[FineCollector]

12 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

Conversely, one could argue that a first appearance alone doesn't make it a key issue.  First appearance of a popular/important character is most definitely key (there's no dispute there), but first appearance of more obscure or, dare i say, not popular characters wouldn't strike me as key.  Like the first appearance of Antivenom, I wouldn't presume to be a key.  Now of course, that could all change should the character make a resurgence or something else that increases interest.

The question, then, is how many people have to like a character before it's a key?  A character like Maxima has little significance in the DCU.  In your opinion, does her first appearance become a key if:

A) she appears in a DC movie?

B) she appears in Supergirl?

C) she gets her own solo comic series?

D) Frank Cho popularizes her by placing her in suggestive sketches?

I don't imagine she has a great number of fans, but I would still recommend we count that as a key, albeit a minor one.  It's not valuable, but it is an issue of significance.  Some people will recognize this, and buy it anyway.  Others will wait until the price goes up, and suddenly decide this book they've ignored for years is now worthy of being in their collections, which makes me physically ill.

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Here is two I like because of just reading them lately.

I really was surprised how good Darkhawk was as a read. Solid series lasted 50 issues.

Also Booster Gold is cool in a Deadpool kind of way.

Not sure why Darkhawk qualifies as a D.C. Copper/Modern key...

[ComicConnoisseur]

17 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Not sure why Darkhawk qualifies as a D.C. Copper/Modern key...

Yep. For some reason I thought it was both Marvel and DC keys. 

[Gatsby77]

1 hour ago, FineCollector said:

The question, then, is how many people have to like a character before it's a key?  A character like Maxima has little significance in the DCU.  In your opinion, does her first appearance become a key if:

A) she appears in a DC movie?

B) she appears in Supergirl?

C) she gets her own solo comic series?

D) Frank Cho popularizes her by placing her in suggestive sketches?

I don't imagine she has a great number of fans, but I would still recommend we count that as a key, albeit a minor one.  It's not valuable, but it is an issue of significance.  Some people will recognize this, and buy it anyway.  Others will wait until the price goes up, and suddenly decide this book they've ignored for years is now worthy of being in their collections, which makes me physically ill.

I have a hard time thinking of Maxima's first appearance as key-worthy.

It was actually the first issue of Action Comics I bought off the newsstand because of the eye-catching Perez cover. Cool story, but as far as I'm concerned she basically peaked in Armageddon 2001.

So...she's already appeared in Smallville and Supergirl...and now her first appearance is key?

I don't see it.

 

 

[ExNihilo]

4 hours ago, FineCollector said:

The question, then, is how many people have to like a character before it's a key?  A character like Maxima has little significance in the DCU.  In your opinion, does her first appearance become a key if:

A) she appears in a DC movie?

B) she appears in Supergirl?

C) she gets her own solo comic series?

D) Frank Cho popularizes her by placing her in suggestive sketches?

I don't imagine she has a great number of fans, but I would still recommend we count that as a key, albeit a minor one.  It's not valuable, but it is an issue of significance.  Some people will recognize this, and buy it anyway.  Others will wait until the price goes up, and suddenly decide this book they've ignored for years is now worthy of being in their collections, which makes me physically ill.

Key is definitely subjective and I'll agree that books can be subdivided as major/minor keys.  For the purposes of the original post, I was looking for major keys.  To that end, I think value plays a role into what the majority consider "key" (hereby referring to major keys).  To that extent, if demand surpasses supply to the point that the value of a book is increased to a point that is no longer reasonable to a large number of readers, then the book is most certainly key.  (Additional rule: the contents of a book should be noteworthy in some way, first appearance, first book by legendary creator(s), etc).

An example of a book that has a noteworthy event but isn't necessarily key might be Green Lantern #0 (first appearance of Simon Baz as Green Lantern).  It ticks the content box, but there aren't a whole lot of buyers clamoring to read about Simon's origin.  Now, when a movie comes out, interest automatically ticks up.  For example, I recently found myself bidding on a Nova #1 simply because I speculate that Nova will be introduced into the MCU at some point (just purely off the fact that Nova Corp was in GotG).  20 years ago, that book never would have been on my radar.

But to answer your question, if Maxima appears in a quality DCEU movie in a meaningful way, then yeah, her first appearance would qualify as key.  Appearances in Supergirl, solo comic series, and popularization due to suggestive sketches don't really make a book key in my opinion.  But again, it's all subjective.  Someone might be a huge Maxima fan and to them it's key.  And really I think that's the great thing about comics as a medium, it's really about what enjoyment you derive from it.