Grading Skill Of A Comic Dealer 3 3

[thirdgreenham]

45 minutes ago, blazingbob said:

Bob,  as a dealer I would much rather gauge a dealer's grading ability with them putting a grade on the sticker versus a price.  And no it does not take the argument of grade out of the equation because it requires you to look up the price and guess what he graded it.  VG is $10,  you have $50,  did you grade it a VF?  

 

Absolutely.

There are a few reasons that I can think of why a dealer doesn't put a grade on his stickers:

-he's not confident in grading

-he doesn't know how to grade

-he's lazy

-he's going to be asking more money than that grade usually sells for

-he doesn't want to argue with the customer over the grade (and this one is funny as it's usually the grade that helps determine the price in the first place, and it's nice to know how that price came about. The asking price could be far too high, based off of what he thinks the grade is, and you'll never know because he doesn't list the grade. For me, this is the most frustrating dealer to try to negotiate with)

[kav]

2 hours ago, lizards2 said:

I don't consider you to be a BSD.  In fact, I don't recall you selling (or buying) anything.

Yes they call me The Hammer

[lizards2]

9 minutes ago, kav said:

2 hours ago, lizards2 said:

I don't consider you to be a BSD.  In fact, I don't recall you selling (or buying) anything.

Yes they call me The Hammer

War Hammer?...,   or lil Danny Dupcak?

[kav]

1 minute ago, lizards2 said:

War Hammer?...,   or lil Danny Dupcak?

Danny Cupcake!!

[lizards2]

1 minute ago, kav said:

Danny Cupcake!!

Captain Cupcake!

[Hudson]

14 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

War Hammer?...,   or lil Danny Dupcak?

Now, there is a name from the past.

I remember traveling to NY in the late 80's to visit his store "Fantazia".

He certainly had an awesome selection of books.

Of course then there is, as Paul Harvey would say, "The rest of the story..."

[lizards2]

8 minutes ago, Hudson said:

25 minutes ago, lizards2 said:

War Hammer?...,   or lil Danny Dupcak?

Now, there is a name from the past.

I remember traveling to NY in the late 80's to visit his store "Fantazia".

He certainly had an awesome selection of books.

Of course then there is, as Paul Harvey would say, "The rest of the story..."

I bought one of those butchered books through an ad in The Comic Buyer's Guide.  TTA 57 - it was obviously color-touched - the whole black spine line was re-lined in heavy, black ink.  Sent it right back for a refund.

[comicwiz]

1 hour ago, thirdgreenham said:

Absolutely.

There are a few reasons that I can think of why a dealer doesn't put a grade on his stickers:

-he's not confident in grading

-he doesn't know how to grade

-he's lazy

-he's going to be asking more money than that grade usually sells for

-he doesn't want to argue with the customer over the grade (and this one is funny as it's usually the grade that helps determine the price in the first place, and it's nice to know how that price came about. The asking price could be far too high, based off of what he thinks the grade is, and you'll never know because he doesn't list the grade. For me, this is the most frustrating dealer to try to negotiate with)

No disagreement here from me. Although I think the perspective and input people are sharing here allows each one of us to pick and choose based on their own experiences which scenario applies best. The few times I'm standing behind a table in a calendar year, most of the concerns here can be remedied by the buyer having an ability to grade, and I'm happy to take the book out of the bag to allow the buyer an opportunity to examine the comic.

I'm looking at this issue through a different lens though, and an issue far more rampant that seems to garner little to no discussion.

What I dislike is people who advertise locally (every one of you have one of these people in your area) who actively go out and buy comics. I have run into owners after they've been fleeced, and it isn't a very welcoming reception because I get lumped into the "dealers" group even though I pride myself on being fair, honest, and ethical.

The biggest issue as I see it is this arbitary "percentage" of guide, which is used as an automatic advantage to said buyers. Even if they get the grade right, what they don't share is the "potential" for the book to experience an upgrade, and conversely, a completely different value from what is being offered. I had the unfortunate situation of dealing with a woman who was taken advantage of in this manner.

How this played out is the woman sold the collection in fragments because it was divided between several storage locker locations. She showed the first fragment to several people. One of the first people asked for some advice, and the guy he trusted with this information moved in on the collection himself. Feeling betrayed, the guy who lost out on the first collection told the lady when she called him back for the second fragment, that the person she sold to was profiting from having the books pressed/graded. After he explained what this meant, the woman was livid.

I got dragged into the mess because after the betrayed buyer told her what the first guy did, she refused to sell anything to anyone without getting the collection appraised. I would have helped her, except she was intent on going after the guy who ripped her off and began asking if I would testify in court.  Not that I didn't want to help her by testifying, but I didn't have any frame of reference on what she sold, what was upgraded, etc. It was all hearsay and based on one buyers bitterness from being snaked out of a collection.

I had to decline the appraisal assignment as she was making it contingent on testifying. Out of courtesy, I offered her a value on what was remaining, and even put aside a pile which would make sense to send in for grading, and didn't charge her anything. One of the things I didn't appreciate though is that after I spent a few hours, gas/mileage, didn't charge her anything, she made a remark about dealers not being people who can be trusted. I know she was still fuming over what took place, but it's a perception problem being compounded by people who use the "collector" card too frequently, often to gain a percieved advantage in buying collections, and are causing issues for everyone, including people who are honest and aboveboard.

Edited August 15, 2017 by comicwiz

[1Cool]

25 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

No disagreement here from me. Although I think the perspective and input people are sharing here allows each one of us to pick and choose based on their own experiences which scenario applies best. The few times I'm standing behind a table in a calendar year, most of the concerns here can be remedied by the buyer having an ability to grade, and I'm happy to take the book out of the bag to allow the buyer an opportunity to examine the comic.

I'm looking at this issue through a different lens though, and an issue far more rampant that seems to garner little to no discussion.

What I dislike is people who advertise locally (every one of you have one of these people in your area) who actively go out and buy comics. I have run into owners after they've been fleeced, and it isn't a very welcoming reception because I get lumped into the "dealers" group even though I pride myself on being fair, honest, and ethical.

The biggest issue as I see it is this arbitary "percentage" of guide, which is used as an automatic advantage to said buyers. Even if they get the grade right, what they don't share is the "potential" for the book to experience an upgrade, and conversely, a completely different value from what is being offered. I had the unfortunate situation of dealing with a woman who was taken advantage of in this manner.

How this played out is the woman sold the collection in fragments because it was divided between several storage locker locations. She showed the first fragment to several people. One of the first people asked for some advice, and the guy he trusted with this information moved in on the collection himself. Feeling betrayed, the guy who lost out on the first collection told the lady when she called him back for the second fragment, that the person she sold to was profiting from having the books pressed/graded. After he explained what this meant, the woman was livid.

I got dragged into the mess because after the betrayed buyer told her what the first guy did, she refused to sell anything to anyone without getting the collection appraised. I would have helped her, except she was intent on going after the guy who ripped her off and began asking if I would testify in court.  Not that I didn't want to help her by testifying, but I didn't have any frame of reference on what she sold, what was upgraded, etc. It was all hearsay and based on one buyers bitterness from being snaked out of a collection.

I had to decline the appraisal assignment as she was making it contingent on testifying. Out of courtesy, I offered her a value on what was remaining, and even put aside a pile which would make sense to send in for grading, and didn't charge her anything. One of the things I didn't appreciate though is that after I spent a few hours, gas/mileage, didn't charge her anything, she made a remark about dealers not being people who can be trusted. I know she was still fuming over what took place, but it's a perception problem being compounded by people who use the "collector" card too frequently, often to gain a percieved advantage in buying collections, and are causing issues for everyone, including people who are honest and aboveboard.

Wow - a dealer now has to pay fair market for the perceived after press and grading prices?  I could understand if the lady asked to see if the books should be pressed/graded and the guy said not to and then did it himself but buying books for a fair price at the current condition seems pretty fair to me. 

[comicwiz]

3 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

Wow - a dealer now has to pay fair market for the perceived after press and grading prices?  I could understand if the lady asked to see if the books should be pressed/graded and the guy said not to and then did it himself but buying books for a fair price at the current condition seems pretty fair to me. 

If you're being called in to "appraise" a collection, you have to describe the value potential of an item. Happens with artwork every time when it's suggested that cleaning or minor restorative works will increase the value.  People generally understand the part about needing to spend money to make a stronger return, and you would be amazed at how much a little transparency helps the situation, but paying a "percentage" of VF on a book that comes back a NM+ is stealing, and the problem is further compounded when the books are worth a considerable sum of money. I think it's particularly unwise for anyone to be appraising anything unless they intend to offer fair market value, and yes, FMV does factor in reconditioning to enhance value.  Saying your buying is a completely different when the owner knows and/or has an idea what they need for it, but let's face it, those aren't the collections being scooped up in any hurry. 

The last I heard, the case against this person was still in the courts.

[1Cool]

17 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

If you're being called in to "appraise" a collection, you have to describe the value potential of an item. Happens with artwork every time when it's suggested that cleaning or minor restorative works will increase the value.  People generally understand the part about needing to spend money to make a stronger return, and you would be amazed at how much a little transparency helps the situation, but paying a "percentage" of VF on a book that comes back a NM+ is stealing, and the problem is further compounded when the books are worth a considerable sum of money. I think it's particularly unwise for anyone to be appraising anything unless they intend to offer fair market value, and yes, FMV does factor in reconditioning to enhance value.  Saying your buying is a completely different when the owner knows and/or has an idea what they need for it, but let's face it, those aren't the collections being scooped up in any hurry. 

The last I heard, the case against this person was still in the courts.

I've never been involved on the appraisal portion of the process so that is new to me that you have to suggest ways for the books (or art or cars) can be improved.  I'd think the appraisal of the item is based on the current price of the item in its current condition.  Is it typical the appraisal person can then buy the item after determining the fair current price - sounds like a receipt for disaster to me. 

Paying a percentage of a VF book does not seem like stealing to me since there is no way the buyer can be sure the press will raise the grade to a NM+.  The press could pop a staple and now its a VG copy so should the seller pay the dealer since it's now substantially less then they paid? 

[chrisco37]

4 hours ago, blazingbob said:

The onus of grading should never rest solely on the buyer.  If you are behind a table with books for sale,  signs,  business cards, instagram account,  website you are a dealer and should stand behind your grading ability.  There is no "Weekend Warrior Dealer" free pass on this.  You should be open to being asked who taught you how to grade.    

mess!   What the heck am I supposed to do with all the "I am not a professional dealer" signs and cards I recently had made up?  

[chrisco37]

10 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

Paying a percentage of a VF book does not seem like stealing to me since there is no way the buyer can be sure the press will raise the grade to a NM+.  The press could pop a staple and now its a VG copy so should the seller pay the dealer since it's now substantially less then they paid? 

Yeah, I don't see the problem here.  

[thirdgreenham]

30 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

If you're being called in to "appraise" a collection, you have to describe the value potential of an item. Happens with artwork every time when it's suggested that cleaning or minor restorative works will increase the value.  People generally understand the part about needing to spend money to make a stronger return, and you would be amazed at how much a little transparency helps the situation, but paying a "percentage" of VF on a book that comes back a NM+ is stealing, and the problem is further compounded when the books are worth a considerable sum of money. I think it's particularly unwise for anyone to be appraising anything unless they intend to offer fair market value, and yes, FMV does factor in reconditioning to enhance value.  Saying your buying is a completely different when the owner knows and/or has an idea what they need for it, but let's face it, those aren't the collections being scooped up in any hurry. 

The last I heard, the case against this person was still in the courts.

...and so, would you make your offer lower when factoring what your costs would be to recondition and enhance the value?  ie. maybe you're offering more because you see pressing potential, but there's also a cost to pressing, there's a cost to grading and all that's in between before you could actually realize any sales.  Would that also factor into your offer?

it seems that stuff that takes less effort to move and sell, you should actually pay more for than stuff that has a longer list of things needed to be done before profit can be made.

[comicwiz]

22 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

I've never been involved on the appraisal portion of the process so that is new to me that you have to suggest ways for the books (or art or cars) can be improved.  I'd think the appraisal of the item is based on the current price of the item in its current condition.  Is it typical the appraisal person can then buy the item after determining the fair current price - sounds like a receipt for disaster to me. 

Paying a percentage of a VF book does not seem like stealing to me since there is no way the buyer can be sure the press will raise the grade to a NM+.  The press could pop a staple and now its a VG copy so should the seller pay the dealer since it's now substantially less then they paid? 

I don't think it's that difficult a concept to comprehend. Treating people dishonestly will have consequences that extend beyond the victims, and as I've said, it's making the perception issues worse towards dealers. There's risk in everything you buy, I have yet to hear anyone complaining of popped staples when their boasting about their upgrades in Facebook collector groups.  And even if the risk ratio proved the risks associated to pressing were similar to the odds of playing roulette at a casino, then I see no harm in explaining those risks to justify what you pay. It's the lack of transparency that creates an atmosphere of people losing trust in anyone associated to buying/selling comics.

Edited August 15, 2017 by comicwiz

[chrisco37]

The more I think about this, the more issue I take with "Guy #2" who called out the first guy.  

Seems to me, the lady was (would've been) fine with the original sale until #2 came along (probably butthurt that the collection got scooped before he could get it) and then proceeded to slam the first guy.    He's the real a-hole in the scenario, not the guy that bought the stuff.  

Disregard....I read the original scenario totally incorrectly.  

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by chrisco37
Reading comprehension issues..duh

[comicwiz]

13 minutes ago, thirdgreenham said:

...and so, would you make your offer lower when factoring what your costs would be to recondition and enhance the value?  ie. maybe you're offering more because you see pressing potential, but there's also a cost to pressing, there's a cost to grading and all that's in between before you could actually realize any sales.  Would that also factor into your offer?

it seems that stuff that takes less effort to move and sell, you should actually pay more for than stuff that has a longer list of things needed to be done before profit can be made.

Absolutely. Every time I've explained my costs/overhead in making a purchase, especially when I needed to turn around and resell, the person understood. Of course, not everyone cares about the minutia of details, but it doesn't hurt to use layman terms so they understand there is a potential market value that could be attained with some hard work and resourcefulness. Anyone with common sense realizes they are taking a lower amount because you've accepted the job of making the most return from it. I can't emphasize enough that you want to control the perception people have toward you, rather than to hear it from someone else, who portrays what you've done as being akin to robbing people blind.

The overstock scenario is one that everyone understands, and conversenly, making people aware that you will pay more for items that turn around quicker only makes sense. In your world you probably understand this concept with the comparison of there being no reason (apart from greed) for a gold buyer to offer 30% of spot when there are numerous buyers that will hit the mid 90% threshold.

Edited August 15, 2017 by comicwiz

[1Cool]

14 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

I don't think it's that difficult a concept to comprehend. Treating people dishonestly will have consequences that extend beyond the victims, and as I've said, it's making the perception issues worse towards dealers. There's risk in everything you buy, I have yet to hear anyone complaining of popped staples when their boasting about their upgrades in Facebook collector groups.  And even if the risk ratio proved the risks associated to pressing were similar to the odds of playing roulette at a casino, then I see no harm in explaining those risks to justify what you pay. It's the lack of transparency that creates an atmosphere of people losing trust in anyone associated to buying/selling comics.

It sounds like you educate all of your sellers as to how to maximize the money they can get.  I'm sure people love you but in my mind it's not really the job of a buyer to educate the person selling an item.  Assuming you are not a appraiser who is being paid to provide some education along with the dollar amount then it's the buyers responsibility to offer a price (or accept a price) and then pay the agreed on price.  What they do with it after that is on them.  Is it kind of scummy to offer $20 for a AF 15 to a widow - I'd say so but if the widow wants $20 for the book then the buyer really only has to pay to live up to their end of the deal.  Now I do agree your methods will win you happier customers but not necessarily more money but one way is not necessarily wrong as long as there is no lying or theft going on.

[blazingbob]

Kharma has a way to coming around if you don't treat somebody fairly.  With any "multi-part" deals if it comes out that you lowballed the first buy you generally don't get the rest.  Doesn't matter what the "seller" thinks.  You are out.  Now while I don't agree with what Joe is saying about paying for "Upgrades" I do see that treating somebody fairly will get you more deals in the long run. 

[Hudson]

2 hours ago, comicwiz said:

 

How this played out is the woman sold the collection in fragments because it was divided between several storage locker locations. She showed the first fragment to several people. One of the first people asked for some advice, and the guy he trusted with this information moved in on the collection himself. Feeling betrayed, the guy who lost out on the first collection told the lady when she called him back for the second fragment, that the person she sold to was profiting from having the books pressed/graded. After he explained what this meant, the woman was livid.

I got dragged into the mess because after the betrayed buyer told her what the first guy did, she refused to sell anything to anyone without getting the collection appraised.

I think the first ethical problem we have here is the guy moving in on the collection, after simply being asked for advice.  If the guy had no personal knowledge of the collection until asked for advice from a potential buyer, then IMO he should not have moved in on the collection.

Maybe not everyone has these same ethics.  I don't know.

I know it is not the same thing, however, I was at a recent comic convention, looking through a dealer's books, when a guy came up and asked the dealer if he was interested in buying some books.  The seller did not have all the books with him, however, from what I overheard, I knew I might be interested in the some of the books not present.  I could have just jumped in and offered to buy the books, however, I didn't think that was ethical.  I waited while the two talked and when a deal was not made, I said that I might be interested in some of the books, but ONLY if the deal included either going through the dealer (at a profit to him) OR a simple finder's fee for the dealer (since I was at his table when I learned of the books).

I also remember another time when a dealer (owner of a LCS) told me about a single digit Action Comics that was for sale.  I ended up purchasing the book and although the dealer did not ask for anything, I went to him and gave him what I thought was a fair "finder's fee".

I know not everyone will think the same way about these types of things.  Everyone's view of ethics is different.  Everyone's view of what is "fair" is different (and regrettably often changes depending on what side of the table they are on).   I just think that money is easy to come by and reputations are not.  Money is a cheap commodity, whereas there is only one person that I have to face in the mirror every day.