Rick2you2 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I was hoping someone could explain a business model to me. More than a few people, besides myself, have noticed that the prices Coollines wants for its OA can be really high, sometimes by multiples of the market. I did buy something from Coolines once, which was at an "okay" price, but a lot of the others they have....I'll pass. Now everyone certainly has the right to try and get whatever they can for what the own. I understand that. But the raw volume of art they apparently have suggests a huge inventory. And if their pricing is generally really high, how does that business model work? Commission only? Ultra high mark-up to cover a small number of sales? Or maybe they are really collectors and don't care? I typed in Coollines in the search box here, and one person theorized they are preying on the new and uneducated. I find that hard to believe. It's a lot easier for the new and uneducated to find CAF and look at published prices than to make inquiry of what something costs. Again, this is not a knock on the Donnellys. When I met one at a show, he was a perfectly nice, likable guy, and he seemed to know how his pricing was viewed. I just can't fathom the business model and I'm intellectually curious about it. babsrocks31 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoWitHurts Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said: I was hoping someone could explain a business model to me. More than a few people, besides myself, have noticed that the prices Coollines wants for its OA can be really high, sometimes by multiples of the market. I did buy something from Coolines once, which was at an "okay" price, but a lot of the others they have....I'll pass. Now everyone certainly has the right to try and get whatever they can for what the own. I understand that. But the raw volume of art they apparently have suggests a huge inventory. And if their pricing is generally really high, how does that business model work? Commission only? Ultra high mark-up to cover a small number of sales? Or maybe they are really collectors and don't care? I typed in Coollines in the search box here, and one person theorized they are preying on the new and uneducated. I find that hard to believe. It's a lot easier for the new and uneducated to find CAF and look at published prices than to make inquiry of what something costs. Again, this is not a knock on the Donnellys. When I met one at a show, he was a perfectly nice, likable guy, and he seemed to know how his pricing was viewed. I just can't fathom the business model and I'm intellectually curious about it. The model works until it doesn't. When it doesn't work they go out of business. If they make 30-40% profit per piece then they can sell fewer pieces but they would need deep pockets for cash flow I would think. It is frustrating for a collector when you come up against unreasonable pricing. However, unreasonable is subjective to the buyer. Myself , I am patient and wait for books I want that meet my criteria to come to auction where price is closest to market. For one of a kind OA I imagine it would be even harder to be patient for a piece to come to market. babsrocks31 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicparadox Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 The Donnelly have owned much of their art for years and years. Their cost basis is therefore comparatively quite low for many of the artworks they own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 25 minutes ago, WoWitHurts said: If they make 30-40% profit per piece then they can sell fewer pieces but they would need deep pockets for cash flow I would think. The Donnelly Brothers (aka The DBs, at least in my house) have other business interests. I don't do their taxes but I'm certain comic art does not and need not provide the liquidity for their cumulative monthly nut. 30-40% profit is something even most reasonable playas around here wouldn't bother with. The number most often tossed about is double (100% markup). For The DBs, 100% isn't even worth clicking through to place the order or bid; I'd say their average is 300% markup, immediately upon acquiring, and then add 20-50% of that number every 2-3 years after that they're left carrying the bag...as a pricey favor...for whatever newbie finally does end up buying something The above is as close to rational as you'll ever get on this subject...anything further is subjective and your wildest suppositions and guesses can and always will be trumped by actual stories that actually happened. Guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoWitHurts Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, vodou said: The Donnelly Brothers (aka The DBs, at least in my house) have other business interests. I don't do their taxes but I'm certain comic art does not and need not provide the liquidity for their cumulative monthly nut. 30-40% profit is something even most reasonable playas around here wouldn't bother with. The number most often tossed about is double (100% markup). For The DBs, 100% isn't even worth clicking through to place the order or bid; I'd say their average is 300% markup, immediately upon acquiring, and then add 20-50% of that number every 2-3 years after that they're left carrying the bag...as a pricey favor...for whatever newbie finally does end up buying something The above is as close to rational as you'll ever get on this subject...anything further is subjective and your wildest suppositions and guesses can and always will be trumped by actual stories that actually happened. Guaranteed. I guess whatever they are doing works for them or they would find another vehicle for their investments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aokartman Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 There are some collectors who have never tried to resell their art that they have lost interest in. Those collectors who do try to sell off their art quickly realize it is not easy. When I make a nostalgic buy, I try to justify it by telling myself I can, with work, get 3-6X upon resale. 6X is my favorite as a benchmark. I have sold at 300X. The remark about the DBS having back inventory going back decades suggests they think along the same lines. I don't really see this as an ethically challenged model. The tweaking of art, and misleading descriptions, are a different discussion. My opinion, David S. Albright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 31 minutes ago, aokartman said: The tweaking of art, and misleading descriptions, are a different discussion. One thing I did notice is that the piece I bought almost a year ago is still listed by them as something to inquire about. That, too, is annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 34 minutes ago, aokartman said: I don't really see this as an ethically challenged model. It's not ethically challenged, in my view. It's just not comprehensible. I should think that someone would want to flip their inventory over every year, what with new stuff always becoming available. If you can pick up a 50% rate of return in one year, you're doing a killing. To let it sit for years on end just doesn't sound like a good business practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 25 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said: One thing I did notice is that the piece I bought almost a year ago is still listed by them as something to inquire about. That, too, is annoying. Quite intentional this, to draw in "live" contacts that result in bait-n-switch to what is available, gather e-mail addresses and other contact information. The DBs love capturing as much information as they can to profile who wants what, how badly, and hopefully badly enough to pay many times over FMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 Just to throw another comparative log on the fire as to market conditions vs. DB's. This page is currently on Heritage Auctions for $262.50, including buyer's premium. It is by Ross Andru and Rick Hoberg, and I expect it will go up. It's also a pretty nice page with the Spectre and Batman, and some real artistic flair to it. This Now, compare it to this on eBay, also pencilled by Ross Andru, which they had listed but no one bought at $1,975 (down from around $2,100, actually). It is not nearly as nice, and a flying half-splash Spectre will draw a lot more fans than an unconscious Phantom Stranger. It is also the second year the Phantom Stranger page has been listed with no takers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, vodou said: Quite intentional this, to draw in "live" contacts that result in bait-n-switch to what is available, gather e-mail addresses and other contact information. The DBs love capturing as much information as they can to profile who wants what, how badly, and hopefully badly enough to pay many times over FMV. I figured that, but I should think they would find most potential buyers are more likely to get pissed off. I know I would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aokartman Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 My prediction....you will not win that Heritage page. Boldly, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 1 hour ago, aokartman said: When I make a nostalgic buy, I try to justify it by telling myself I can, with work, get 3-6X upon resale. 6X is my favorite as a benchmark. I have sold at 300X. The remark about the DBS having back inventory going back decades suggests they think along the same lines. Very aggressive self-challenge there David. My preference is for the immediate double and hold out for the triple, but allowing for a couple of years...I don't get hung up on how long it takes me to get my number, as long as it's not (literally) decade/s. And as long as I don't feel momentum has stopped or is reversing. I just need to beat inflation (my personal cost of living inflator, not a ginned up CPI basket of good national average) and the disgust of doing something else I'd enjoy much less for 40+ hours a week. The DBs have, still, a ton (probably literally!) of material acquired in the 1980s. Cost basis going back 30+ years has no bearing on today's market for anyone, for them - they will always price at multiples of (current) market and keep moving the needle up. That's how you hold on to so much for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said: I figured that, but I should think they would find most potential buyers are more likely to get pissed off. I know I would be. They're not really into cultivating repeat customers anyway. You've already bought, they don't expect to ever see you again. Likewise nobody on this board. Unless you're willing to trade your way into something you want emotionally for a -3x trade value of stuff you don't mind letting go of and maybe also have an equally low cost basis in. There are those folks around too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, aokartman said: My prediction....you will not win that Heritage page. Boldly, David I wasn't planning on bidding for it, but I would more willingly pay 2K (or more) for it than the other one. babsrocks31 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said: I wasn't planning on bidding for it, but I would more willingly pay 2K (or more) for it than the other one. Not a market I'm too familiar with, but my gut: looks like $4k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodou Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said: Now, compare it to this on eBay, also pencilled by Ross Andru, which they had listed but no one bought at $1,975 (down from around $2,100, actually). I'm seeing $750 on a very good day here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aokartman Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, vodou said: Not a market I'm too familiar with, but my gut: looks like $4k. I will take the under on that page at the $4K level, as wonderful as it is. Rick2you2, may you be the winner after all on that one! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, aokartman said: I will take the under on that page at the $4K level, as wonderful as it is. Rick2you2, may you be the winner after all on that one! David But I'm not bidding on the thing--really. I think the page could definitely hit $2,500 to $3,000, however. I'm a particular fan of clever panel design, and this one has a terrific splash. Edited January 4, 2018 by Rick2you2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick2you2 Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 31 minutes ago, vodou said: I'm seeing $750 on a very good day here I tend to agree, but it's not listed for that and is no longer on eBay. So what I'm "hearing" is that their basic stock is, in many cases, quite old, and they apparently have no reason to turn it over quickly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...