A Dealer's Pricing 1 1

[Hekla]

On 1/5/2018 at 11:47 AM, CartoonFanboy said:

I see what you're saying (and I got to say it doesn't surprise me), but in at least one instance I've seen a piece I know they didn't have come up on Clink that they bought really high. It was a cover that was part of a collection that was slowly getting pieced out with several other covers from the same series and artist selling prior. I had actually bought two of the other covers but had no interest in this one, still I was watching the price anyway. Much to my surprise the piece sold for about twice what I was expecting, so it naturally stuck out for me. A couple months later the cover shows up in one of my alerts (can't remember which) and I click on it wondering who the person was that bought it, that's when I saw it was a DB.

There was also the time that I was selling a page that I had purchased two years prior on ebay. Again, to my surprise the page sold for 2.5X what I had paid. I was thrilled of course, then I looked at the buyer and saw the name Donnley. As an interesting side note, he took over a week to pay me and ignored several emails I sent saying that I had specified payment was due within three days. 

Seconded. There were a few Wally Wood Galaxy pieces I was tracking a few years ago on HA and ebay (not all at once; probably over a two-year span) that eventually wound up on their website. I felt the pieces sold at approximately FMV and I have never inquired Cool lines on their asking prices. It appears that the DB sold one of the pieces that I had tracked but the others are still there. 

[Hekla]

Serious question: given the relative small pool of collectors and the volume the Donnelly’s own, how much have they influenced the market? If they decided to liquitate everything at once (they won’t, but could) that would impact the market for years. Even if they stopped buying suddenly, there may be lowered pricing on some auction items (or maybe simply more competative bidding?). Also, does their pricing structure embolden other dealers to ask for more? They may not get any love, but they definitely have made an impact on the hobby.

[vodou]

4 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

From my limited experience, they deserve the benefit of the doubt...

Benefit of the doubt = calling the rest of us liars (aka doubt our shares). Oh-kay

Feel free to share what you bought from them, when, and how much you paid. Maybe* it's as you believe or perhaps we can let you know how many ways you got taken.

 

*Never say never

[vodou]

2 hours ago, Hekla said:

Serious question: given the relative small pool of collectors and the volume the Donnelly’s own, how much have they influenced the market? If they decided to liquitate everything at once (they won’t, but could) that would impact the market for years. Even if they stopped buying suddenly, there may be lowered pricing on some auction items (or maybe simply more competative bidding?). Also, does their pricing structure embolden other dealers to ask for more? They may not get any love, but they definitely have made an impact on the hobby.

Good questions. I don't really know, but I'm not sure they would be as destructive as one might first think on a global basis. They tend to rule pockets only, those pockets would be flooded but probably would also be taken up by all the collectors that have patiently been waiting and not ever even considering buying from them otherwise. The rest of the market, aside from "their" pockets, would probably proceed as if little happened other than 15-20% of the liquidity for a short time was redirected.

Maybe two other questions could be:

1. Would other dealers protect their markets by forcing the prices to stay high on the dump? (Would they be able to?)

2. Would certain collectors that otherwise spend money out of boredom finally get certain things they want and then walk away or significantly step down their collecting? (Would other markets suffer a drop in volume at the margins?)

[Rick2you2]

17 minutes ago, vodou said:

Benefit of the doubt = calling the rest of us liars (aka doubt our shares). Oh-kay

Feel free to share what you bought from them, when, and how much you paid. Maybe* it's as you believe or perhaps we can let you know how many ways you got taken.

 

*Never say never

Every one of you is presumably tellling the truth. I was relaying my own experience. And by the way, the reason I started this thread was because a lot of their other prices are unfathomably high to me. 

This is what I bought:

 

It was on eBay originally for $1,500. I thought that was too high, and that it should have been in the $1,000-$1,200 range (tops). I think I bought it for about $1,350 or $1,400. Was it too much? Yes. Was it way too much? Eh. I've since acquired some other Phantom Stranger/Shawn McManus pieces, so, I'm not sure I would do it again. But still and all, I'm satisfied. And by the way, it looks better in the original. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Rick2you2

[theflashunc]

A simple search of the forum brings up multiple examples of how these guys are the worst:

 

 

[Nexus]

This was just brought to my attention, since I rep the artist.

This Paul Pope piece was sold at HA in Aug 2017:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/paul-pope-escapo-french-edition-splash-page-illustration-original-art-c-1998-/a/7166-93456.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-ArchiveSearchResults-012417&lotPosition=0|9#

It's now on Cool Lines:

http://www.comicartfans.com/ForSaleDetails.asp?ArtId=583124

I can confirm that Paul did not re-ink the piece.

[mister_not_so_nice]

19 hours ago, mister_not_so_nice said:

And he could have been a lot harsher. 

I've never heard a 100% positive comment in my many years of collecting, also.  Even the collectors that admit to doing business with them say they got the art, are glad and will never deal with them again.  But as long as even seasoned collectors do at least one deal with them they will continue as they do. 

A small amount of chit-chat and pleasantries doesn't negate the years and years of blatant and willful misrepresentation of art.  Not once has a situation arisen where they've come forth publicly and said, "Wait, this is what really happened . . . " because they know they don't have a leg to stand on.   Anyone that continues to do business with them gets everything they deserve. 

50 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Every one of you is presumably tellling the truth. I was relaying my own experience. And by the way, the reason I started this thread was because a lot of their other prices are unfathomably high to me. 

This is what I bought:

It was on eBay originally for $1,500. I thought that was too high, and that it should have been in the $1,000-$1,200 range (tops). I think I bought it for about $1,350 or $1,400. Was it too much? Yes. Was it way too much? Eh. I've since acquired some other Phantom Stranger/Shawn McManus pieces, so, I'm not sure I would do it again. But still and all, I'm satisfied. And by the way, it looks better in the original. 

And that is their business model.  Sell each collector in the hobby one overpriced piece of art. Seems to be working out great for them. I may have to rethink my tactics. 

Got to my website, I'm having a 50% HIGHER sale 

 

[John E.]

19 minutes ago, Nexus said:

This was just brought to my attention, since I rep the artist.

This Paul Pope piece was sold at HA in Aug 2017:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/paul-pope-escapo-french-edition-splash-page-illustration-original-art-c-1998-/a/7166-93456.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-ArchiveSearchResults-012417&lotPosition=0|9#

It's now on Cool Lines:

http://www.comicartfans.com/ForSaleDetails.asp?ArtId=583124

I can confirm that Paul did not re-ink the piece.

Wow. Just wow. 

Also, they got a hold of Garry Brown’s Catwoman Annual cover, slapped the trade dress on it and a $2,995 price tag. 

Get it while it’s, cheap gentleman. 

[Rick2you2]

51 minutes ago, mister_not_so_nice said:

And that is their business model.  Sell each collector in the hobby one overpriced piece of art. Seems to be working out great for them. I may have to rethink my tactics. 

Got to my website, I'm having a 50% HIGHER sale 

 

I'm not sure I would do it again because I have 2 other pages of the artist (who I really like a lot). If I didn't, I would have. 

None of this changes the fact that a fair number of comments about its business behavior are appalling.  

[zhamlau]

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

This was just brought to my attention, since I rep the artist.

This Paul Pope piece was sold at HA in Aug 2017:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/paul-pope-escapo-french-edition-splash-page-illustration-original-art-c-1998-/a/7166-93456.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-ArchiveSearchResults-012417&lotPosition=0|9#

It's now on Cool Lines:

http://www.comicartfans.com/ForSaleDetails.asp?ArtId=583124

I can confirm that Paul did not re-ink the piece.

oh my god, wow someone really went to work on that cover with the sharpie....wow...

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

I'm not sure I would do it again because I have 2 other pages of the artist (who I really like a lot). If I didn't, I would have. 

None of this changes the fact that a fair number of comments about its business behavior are appalling.  

And yet, "benefit of the doubt". Or are you now (finally) past that?

51 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

oh my god, wow someone really went to work on that cover with the sharpie....wow...

Nice, always, but ruined forever. IMO.

Maybe everybody with fading marker Gil Kane, Jim Starlin, Mike Zeck, John Byrne (among many others) should all invest $2 on a Sharpie and triple the value of their art? Because none of this really matters...right? Sheesh. Thanks for pointing this out Felix.

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, vodou said:

And yet, "benefit of the doubt". Or are you now (finally) past that?

Nice, always, but ruined forever. IMO.

Maybe everybody with fading marker Gil Kane, Jim Starlin, Mike Zeck, John Byrne (among many others) should all invest $2 on a Sharpie and triple the value of their art? Because none of this really matters...right? Sheesh. Thanks for pointing this out Felix.

Because of what I do for a living (I'm a lawyer, which I had publicly mentioned), I really can't respond. I don't want what I might privately think to be taken in an inappropriate manner.

[otherworldsj331]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Because of what I do for a living (I'm a lawyer, which I had publicly mentioned), I really can't respond. I don't want what I might privately think to be taken in an inappropriate manner.

Wow. You did not say anything, but it's pretty much clear what you may be implying. 

The aspect of their pricing while frustrating to collectors is within the boundaries of legally accepted business practices. It feels like rip off pricing, like we are being raked, but just don't buy it. I have purchased some stuff from them over the years and know I am paying above market. But it's the tip of the iceberg. If their pricing were more in line instead of purchasing a couple or 3 pieces, I would have obtained maybe 12 to 15. 

As far as the other stuff, well...even trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, it seems to occur to often. Only a limited number of conclusions one can draw, and none of them are flattering.

[Hudson]

On January 4, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Rick2you2 said:

I was hoping someone could explain a business model to me. More than a few people, besides myself, have noticed that the prices Coollines wants for its OA can be really high, sometimes by multiples of the market. I did buy something from Coolines once, which was at an "okay" price, but a lot of the others they have....I'll pass.

Now everyone certainly has the right to try and get whatever they can for what the own. I understand that. But the raw volume of art they apparently have suggests a huge inventory. And if their pricing is generally really high, how does that business model work? Commission only? Ultra high mark-up to cover a small number of sales? Or maybe they are really collectors and don't care?

I typed in Coollines in the search box here, and one person theorized they are preying on the new and uneducated. I find that hard to believe. It's a lot easier for the new and uneducated to find CAF and look at published prices than to make inquiry of what something costs.

Again, this is not a knock on the Donnellys. When I met one at a show, he was a perfectly nice, likable guy, and he seemed to know how his pricing was viewed.  I just can't fathom the business model and I'm intellectually curious about it.

This sounds very much like the Mile High strategy of pricing their comics.   This is of course only my opinion.   

Year after year, Chuck seems to stay in business, regardless of his pricing.  How he stays in business is always a topic that confuses me, when the product he offers can often be easily obtained on other web sites.  

In the case of OA, however, I assume unique pieces can be priced at whatever one wants, since there is no chance of a buyer obtaining the same piece elsewhere. 

[alxjhnsn]

48 minutes ago, Hudson said:

This sounds very much like the Mile High strategy of pricing their comics.   This is of course only my opinion.   

Year after year, Chuck seems to stay in business, regardless of his pricing.  How he stays in business is always a topic that confuses me, when the product he offers can often be easily obtained on other web sites.  

In the case of OA, however, I assume unique pieces can be priced at whatever one wants, since there is no chance of a buyer obtaining the same piece elsewhere. 

Chuck runs a lot of 50% off sales for his mailing list and to my knowledge doesn't restore comics without disclosure. 

[Rick2you2]

 

1 hour ago, otherworldsj331 said:

Wow. You did not say anything, but it's pretty much clear what you may be implying. 

The aspect of their pricing while frustrating to collectors is within the boundaries of legally accepted business practices. It feels like rip off pricing, like we are being raked, but just don't buy it. I have purchased some stuff from them over the years and know I am paying above market. But it's the tip of the iceberg. If their pricing were more in line instead of purchasing a couple or 3 pieces, I would have obtained maybe 12 to 15. 

As far as the other stuff, well...even trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, it seems to occur to often. Only a limited number of conclusions one can draw, and none of them are flattering.

Never make assumptions. 

On a different but related note, every once in a while, a publicly followed case goes to trial in which it sounds like someone is guilty as hell, but the jury comes back with not guilty. Then, the public screams that someone got away with "this or that." In truth, the ones who hear the actual evidence, and the jury charges, are ones who do know best. They may not even come to the right decision, but they certainly will know better about the matter than the public. 

Honestly, the whole subject makes me uncomfortable, but as much as I wanted to, I couldn't just let this sit. I hope you appreciate why.   

[Rick2you2]

On 1/4/2018 at 12:21 PM, aokartman said:

My prediction....you will not win that Heritage page.  Boldly, David

I just wanted to mention that the Ross Andru page with Batman and the Spectre I mentioned earlier sold for...$2,031.50.

Someone just got a very nice page at a fair price (almost exactly around what I expected, and in line with other Andru pages).

But no, I wouldn't pay $750 to DBs for the Ross Andru page with the Phantom Stranger and Batman on it. It's just plain boring no matter who the artist is..  

[Nexus]

6 hours ago, vodou said:

And yet, "benefit of the doubt". Or are you now (finally) past that?

Nice, always, but ruined forever. IMO.

Maybe everybody with fading marker Gil Kane, Jim Starlin, Mike Zeck, John Byrne (among many others) should all invest $2 on a Sharpie and triple the value of their art? Because none of this really matters...right? Sheesh. Thanks for pointing this out Felix.

I'm of two minds on this. I'm OK if the original inker goes over their original faded marker inks with something archival. This is a matter of preservation. However, I'd rather not have someone who had nothing to do with the original creation re-ink the piece. In either case, it should be disclosed.

I own an early Jaime Hernandez LOVE AND ROCKETS cover that was drawn in India ink, but had some spot blacks filled in with marker. It hadn't faded yet, but given the marker inks of that era, it was simply a matter of time. I consulted with Jaime's rep, Todd Hignite, to see what he thought. He agreed that in the best interests of the art, Jaime should go over the marker with India ink. He said he'd do the same. So he set it up with Jaime and now the cover not only looks great, but is saved for future generations.

(Jaime told me he originally used the marker to fill in some blacks because he was so broke at the time, he was trying to save on India ink! It was a lot of fun hanging out with him and talking about his art while he worked. Thanks Todd!)

As for Paul's art, he occasionally used a Pelikan marker in his early days. It was just another tool in his toolbox. Circa early 2000s, he stopped, after being advised by James Jean on archival inks. All the art I've sold for him has been drawn with these archival inks.

[comix4fun]

On 1/5/2018 at 10:11 AM, cesium_7 said:

Not to defend their practices, but they do correct misattributed 70s British Marvel art, when I have taken the time to inform them about it (they still have several other misatributed pieces on their site).  The same cannot be said for many of the other art dealers out there.  

I assume the correction is to their ultimate monetary benefit. I've never seen an action taken from another motivational origin.