Need advice on purchasing vast GA/SA collection

[Sharkey]

EC:

 

Congrats on the opportunity. At the end of the day if you can make a deal it's got to be one you can live with.

 

PS: I never thought about putting this into writing before...hopefully I haven't bored everyone. I could have made this 3 times longer...

 

Gary, this is an excellent missive. It's unfortunate that some of the people here don't understand the economics of a comic business and underestimate the amount of work and the expense involved in trying to run a business around the buying and selling of comic books. Why is buying a large collection for 20 or 25% of guide is seen as "screwing people over"? People have no problem buying a book on ebay for 20 or 25% of guide and bragging about what a good deal they got. Do they accuse their local comic shop of ripping them off for charging cover price for new books?

 

 

Why is a comic business owner maligned for buying collections for less than retail? Does anyone think that any other business owner pays nearly 100% of their selling price for the things they sell? That's not a good formula for staying in business!!! Especially in the collectibles business where you can purchase a collection and have more than half of it sit for years, even if you are actively going to shows or selling in other venues. Ever see those dealers packing up at the end of a show? See how much stock they are taking with them? When you buy a comic collection, it is NONRETURNABLE. That means you are stuck with any low grade slow sellers. So you have to discount them significantly and even then you may end up with them for a long, long, time. The market for some VG/F Captain Savage and his Leatherneck Raiders just isn't the same as the market for VG/F Amazing Spider-Man 12-centers. And yet the VG/F ASM still might only bring 50% of guide. What do you think those Capt Savage's are going to bring?

 

Comics aren't magic. They don't sell themselves. It takes time and resources to grade, price, stock, ship, store, market, advertise, transport to shows, pay show fees, etc. If you buy books and over-pay, you can lose money REALLY fast in this business. Yeah, it's really tempting to look at a collection with 20% high grade and think, well, I can make a great margin on that, but it's the other 80% of the collection that you end up having to liquidate at 50% off guide if it's low to mid grade. If you bought the collection at 40% of guide, and put the time and resources into what it takes to sell it, you just lost money.

 

If you decide to move stuff on ebay you're going to get far less than guide too, especially for low to mid grade books. If you're a collector who flips small collections then you can afford to gamble now and then and overpay for a small collection because it may be worth it to keep some of the stuff that you got a good deal on and liquidate the rest. But if selling comics is your only income source and you do it full time, you can't afford to buy collections for 40 or 50% guide unless they are predominantly high-grade. And that just rarely happens. Most desirable collections (I mean desirable to buy) have 20% high(er) grades and the rest is low grade or slow selling titles. There are also a ton of collections with 80 to 90% junk. And if you've ever tried to buy collections, you get to deal with the people who think their 10 longboxes of 1980s and 1990s Radioactive Black Belt Hamsters are worth full guide. Or the ones who say they have no idea what the collection is worth, and you go and take the time and effort to sincerly help them go through and value it, make them an offer, and then have them tell you that they don't want to sell it after all. Or that they know it's worth more than that and don't understand why you are offering them less than half the guide value. Oh, and if you only take the good stuff you get accused of cherry picking.

 

When you buy a large collection with the hot stuff and the not-so-hot stuff, you CANNOT afford to over-pay for it. Offering 20 to 25% guide is not screwing anyone over. Seriously. If the person wants to sell the comics for 100% of Overstreet they should go ahead and do all the work of grading, describing, pricing, listing, packing, and shipping that 2,000 book collection. They're going to find out really fast that it is hard work and it takes a lot of time and effort. Anyone who has ever done this finds out very quickly that it is a difficult business.

 

Now, are there unscrupulous and dishonest dealers? Yes, and they give dealers a bad name. But there are also dishonest sellers, like the ones who try to cover up the fact that they just colored in the spines before you showed up to make them look higher grade (you can smell the fresh sharpie ink and see that it bled through) or that tell you they have no idea what the comics are worth but then you find out they've shopped them to half a dozen local dealers already, or who tell you somebody already offered them 75% of guide, or whatever. Once you spend time on a few of those, you start getting much more careful about which collections you take the time to go look at.

 

What Gary wrote is an honest and forthright process of valueing and buying a collection. I honestly do not understand why buying a large collection with a minority of high-grade material for around 25% of guide is seen as ripping someone off or screwing them over. It's a matter of dollars, cents, sense, and time.

 

EC, good luck, I hope you land a nice collection.

[Tango 'n Cash]

Rhino, if 100% of Guide was the selling price on some of these HG comics, then I do not think anyone would have a problem with the 20-25% offer.

 

But these days, 5-10X Guide or more is more the norm with HG Silver or Gold.

[Sharkey]

Rhino, if 100% of Guide was the selling price on some of these HG comics, then I do not think anyone would have a problem with the 20-25% offer.

 

But these days, 5-10X Guide or more is more the norm with HG Silver or Gold.

 

Right, Tango, let me clarify. When I talk about "high grade" in a run-of-the-mill collection, the reality is that it's usually in the VF to VF/NM range (raw). Most people who hae a big collection sitting around that they want to sell off either don't have ultra high grade (ie, no 9.4 to 9.8) or if they do, they sell that stuff themselves prior to offering up to you for sale. I've seen a lot of collections with most of the keys gone.

 

If I'm buying ultra high grade material I definitely use a different pricing model. But to be honest, I have yet to see an ultra high grade raw collection for sale in the past few years. Most people are willing to send their stuff in to CGC and sell it themselves. That's a whole different ball game than the VF/NM stack accompanying 4 long boxes of low or midgrade material.

 

However, when you buy that kind of stuff (high grade raw) you have to be extremely careful becuase if you overpay for something you initially thought was a 9.4 and it comes back from CGC as a 9.0 you can lose money.

 

I find that people understand that super high grade books bring multiples of guide, at least if they've done any checking around at all. But usually they aren't super involved in the hobby then they are not accurate graders. They honestly don't understand the difference between a VF and a NM+. To them a VF book is "Mint", especially compared to all the dog-eared books in the rest of the collection. Those are the toughest people to deal with. I typically take slabbed examples to show them what a 9.4 really looks like, vs a VF or a Fine. Again, often you have to educate the seller before you can close a deal, because you have to earn their trust.

 

I have always tried to be up front and honest with people. Most are very reasonable and understand that they have to sell their books for less than guide value to someone who is going to resell them.

 

I've had several collections that initially turned down my offer, then shopped them around to other places, or thought that they could find a collector, not a dealer, who would give them more, and called me back to accept my offer because I had worked with them in a postive, friendly, and honest manner.

 

I have yet to meet anyone selling a collection who absolutely had no idea about what they had. More often, it is people who think they have something much more valuable than it really is. The idea that dealers are out there swindling little old ladies out of million dollar comic collections is pretty pervasive but it ain't based in reality these days.

[Silver]

Wouldn't it be funny if the seller read this forum?

[eccomic]

The guy deal in other things and comics are really not his thing, but one of many areas of collectables he deals in.

 

He is NOT a Forumite

[Moondog]

Rhino adds some excellent points, especially about restoration which I overlooked completely in my original post. Buyers must not only count the pages in each key/semi-key, they MUST check for amateur restoration. One collection that I recently purchased had a great run of 12 different Amazing Man's. EVERY SINGLE BOOK WAS TRIMMED OR HAD COLOR TOUCH! The difference in value was enormous.

 

Rhino hits it on the head again when he states how important it is to make sure you're conservative when you grading high grade material. It's not easy to be exact when you're in a dimly lit room trying to determine if a high-grade book is a 9.4 or 9.6. Rose-colored glasses can be very dangerous. A book NEVER looks as nice as it did before you bought it. When you get it home you see everything in a different light. Every little flaw suddenly look enormous!

 

When I re-read my original post it becomes clear to me that I was actually trying to protect EC from making a very costly mistake more than I was trying to help him figure out how to buy the collection.

 

--Gary

[Moondog]

EC:

 

Buying from another dealer (even though he's not a comic book dealer) adds another level of complexity. They have a built-in bias against you because they know you want to purchase the collection for the least amount possible, which is the same goal they have when they're out buying collections. He'll be skeptical of everything you say regarding value and grades.

 

In this case he's already quoted you a "retail figure". This is also bad because he expects a price that's a percentage of THAT figure - not what the actual value really is. In this case 25% of $70K is $17,500. That seems like the minimum he'll now accept. I can guarantee you that there is absolutely no way in hell that those books actually grade out to $70K. He just isn't qualified enough to grade those books properly. He's making assumptions and is viewing them through "seller's glasses". My gut tells me that they're probably worth more like $30-40K...

 

If he's serious about selling them refer back to my original post and get all the keys and semi-keys. Do your due diligence on these books - hopefully you can at least leave with these. Make your best offer and then make up your mind to walk if he's steadfast.

 

Keep me posted. And don't hesitate to call me if you want to talk about it. 847.707.7092.

 

Good luck!

 

--Gary

[Forbush-Man]

In this case he's already quoted you a "retail figure". This is also bad because he expects a price that's a percentage of THAT figure - not what the actual value really is. In this case 25% of $70K is $17,500. That seems like the minimum he'll now accept. I can guarantee you that there is absolutely no way in hell that those books actually grade out to $70K. He just isn't qualified enough to grade those books properly. He's making assumptions and is viewing them through "seller's glasses". My gut tells me that they're probably worth more like $30-40K...

 

 

I've seen this scenario before: The seller has gotten hold of a Price Guide and now is determining the value of his collection using the NM- price column. Your job is to educate him to reality.

 

Moondog & Rhino have very accurately described how an honest, above board dealer purchases a large collection. Good job !!!

[eccomic]

Just spoke live to Gary and thanks!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I will DEFINATELY be Educating this gentleman as to the reality of pricing and grading, as comics are not his balliwick!!!!

[BEAUMONTS]

Excellent post Moondog, very informative.

[Comcasthawk]

Let me say this, I have no problem in a dealer making profit from the sale of any book. I realize the cost of selling books(the travel, lodging, gas, show fees, etc.) all must factored into the equation.

 

My problem stems from the point of view of the buyer. It took me just as much time and energy to earn my money that I am buying books with as it did for the dealer to get them. If the dealer pays 25% of guide and then can only sell said books at 50% of guide, there is a problem. And if high grade books nearing the 9.2-9.6 range are getting "over guide prices", than what the hell good is there to having a guide...

 

I guess that's what I am having a problem with......the guide!! What use is it nowadays.........??

[the blob]

"What about if offer him a lump sum like 10K-13K, vs a % of Overstreet??"

 

I would definetely not go through them book by book with an Overstreet. Eyeball the collection -- you ought to have some sense of what the stuff may guide for, particularly if you have a list of the stuff, and then try and calculate your lump sum.

 

It's the seller who may try and make you go through overstreet. When he pulls out a nice, but not NM, copy of ASM 100 and tells you it's a $200 book, explain to him that's only for a perfect copy and his is probably only worth $20, etc.

[the blob]

"But these days, 5-10X Guide or more is more the norm with HG Silver or Gold."

 

That's after you've risked $25-$50+++ to get the book slabbed.

 

And if it comes back a 7.5, you may be SOL.

 

And it doesn't apply to many 9.0s, 9.2s, etc.

[Moondog]

Hawk:

 

High grade books are really a different animal entirely, and probably shouldn't be discussed in this thread.

 

If you have the opportunity to purchase a certified 9.4 you will end up buying it at "market". That's why you're upset about the Guide. The Guide doesn't really reflect prices for these ultra-high-grade books. There's not even a listing for 9.4.

 

Please don't compare what we're talking about here with the buying and selling of truly high grade specimens. We're just trying to make sure EC doesn't get burned buying a bulk collection of raw books.

 

--Gary

[FlyingDonut]

At the risk of the TrollPatrol coming out of the woodwork, let me say that I was a long time customer of Moondog's, and have always found Gary to be on the up-and-up. He's one of the class acts in the hobby, and has been since I first began buying books from him in 1978.

[Moondog]

Aww...gee...shucks, Danny...

 

[skybolt]

I've never had a problem with the listed price if the book is graded accurately by the dealer. If the book is priced too high, I just won't buy it......end of story. However, if I pay over guide for a FN/VF GA book that I want in my collection, and receive a VG+ book instead, I become upset.

 

Sometimes you just have to make a gut call and go for it. For instance, a couple of months a ago I purchased a copy of Phantom Lady #15, that was advertised by Basement Comics as a VG++, for around $500. I was pleasantly surprised when the book came back from CGC as a 6.0. I'd much rather have dealers price their items high and be conseravtive on grading, than fool me into thinking I'm getting a great deal on a VF book that's really a FN-.

 

By the way Moondog, as I mentioned before, the books I purchased from you were also graded accurately.

[Comcasthawk]

Hawk:

 

High grade books are really a different animal entirely, and probably shouldn't be discussed in this thread.

 

If you have the opportunity to purchase a certified 9.4 you will end up buying it at "market". That's why you're upset about the Guide. The Guide doesn't really reflect prices for these ultra-high-grade books. There's not even a listing for 9.4.

 

Please don't compare what we're talking about here with the buying and selling of truly high grade specimens. We're just trying to make sure EC doesn't get burned buying a bulk collection of raw books.

 

--Gary

 

How can I talk about the prices of books and not mention the OS guide, since the guide is what determines whether one has received a "good deal"....?

[Sharkey]

Hawk:

 

High grade books are really a different animal entirely, and probably shouldn't be discussed in this thread.

 

If you have the opportunity to purchase a certified 9.4 you will end up buying it at "market". That's why you're upset about the Guide. The Guide doesn't really reflect prices for these ultra-high-grade books. There's not even a listing for 9.4.

 

Please don't compare what we're talking about here with the buying and selling of truly high grade specimens. We're just trying to make sure EC doesn't get burned buying a bulk collection of raw books.

 

--Gary

 

How can I talk about the prices of books and not mention the OS guide, since the guide is what determines whether one has received a "good deal"....?

 

Yeah, I love the Overstreet Guide for a lot of reasons as a reference tool (lots of good info about a variety of things like artists, appearances, etc) but the Guide does not accurately reflect what comics sell for in today's market, especially with Ebay, slabbed books, etc.

 

Now it seems you have to base everything on a percentage of guide.

VG silver age sells for 50% of the VG price in the guide , 9.4 slabbed books sell for 3 X the 9.4 NM price (huh?), 9.6 slabbed books sell for 8X NM guide, yada yada yada. Try explaining that to someone who's new into comics

 

Oh and Gary's point is a good one. They don't even list 9.4 anymore, now it's 9.2!

[BEAUMONTS]

I have a offer for comcasthawk, I have appx 75 true NM to NM+ copys of Amazing Spiderman Chaos in Calgary 4 Canadian copy OS is $14.00 that I acquired in a bulk purchase of comics. I will sell them all to you for half of guide! That's right only 7 dollars U.S. each, that's only 525.00 considering that they are NM to NM+ you should easily be able to make your money back plus more? I am not saying this to anger you just to illustrate a point. I have had these for almost 2 years and I still have them should I have given the gentlemen I purchased them from what percentage of guide for them?