penciled and inked pages brought together 0

[Michaeld]

I've just added a great page from the Avengers: Rage Of Ultron one shot. I recently won the Morales inked page on ebay and then later purchased the Opena penciled page. The first panel is just beautiful.

Have a look: Ultron page

[Rick2you2]

28 minutes ago, Michaeld said:

I've just added a great page from the Avengers: Rage Of Ultron one shot. I recently won the Morales inked page on ebay and then later purchased the Opena penciled page. The first panel is just beautiful.

Have a look: Ultron page

You're a lucky man. 

It's a shame that no one can do a pencil/ink matching program. 

[Spidey 62]

I have 2 Star Trek pages where I have both pencil and inked versions.  The Gordon Purcell pencils and Bob Almond inks.  I have both sets in connected frames. 

I have seen where some people prefer the inked versions of pages,  when both are available,  more due to the closer to production aspect.  

[Rick2you2]

15 hours ago, Spidey 62 said:

I have 2 Star Trek pages where I have both pencil and inked versions.  The Gordon Purcell pencils and Bob Almond inks.  I have both sets in connected frames. 

I have seen where some people prefer the inked versions of pages,  when both are available,  more due to the closer to production aspect.  

Pencil art is for thinking; ink is for pop. Sometimes, I feel like thinking; sometimes I want pop.

[williamhlawson]

First off...badass. I'd love to see those pencils just contrasted (darkened) up a bit to show more, I just want to see that bottom row in pencils.  They are killer. 

Cool deal to do that, drives me nuts you have to.  Not sure at what point in time this became common practice.  I left the hobby around 2004 and art was usually a 'one and done.'   Now,  it seems multiple 'original' pages exist for many, many comics and it's often up to you to find out for yourself if that's the case.  I see some dealers sell them together, some buyers, I assume, sell one off to cover the other resulting in more splits.  I know some love the blue, I personally don't.   I have been buying Bianchi's lately and that's usually not a concern.  I did see a ghost box Beast penciled page on ebay recently, then saw a completely inked and washed version on CAF though and that just made me go on a hunt to figure that out too.  I just genuinely miss the one page per page simplicity of collecting ORIGINAL art.  Maybe I'm just the crotchety old guy already?

[Rick2you2]

7 hours ago, williamhlawson said:

Maybe I'm just the crotchety old guy already?

No, you've got company on that one. 

As it is, I think the art is less interesting without the word balloons. The art is supposed to move the story, and the word balloons tell the story. 

[vodou]

11 hours ago, williamhlawson said:

I did see a ghost box Beast penciled page on ebay recently, then saw a completely inked and washed version on CAF though and that just made me go on a hunt to figure that out too.  I just genuinely miss the one page per page simplicity of collecting ORIGINAL art.  Maybe I'm just the crotchety old guy already?

Embrace the changes; glass half full pov: change keeps it interesting (imo). Anyway, things will change whether you go along with or not

3 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

No, you've got company on that one. 

As it is, I think the art is less interesting without the word balloons. The art is supposed to move the story, and the word balloons tell the story. 

See above.

Further...it's "art".

Funny thing - everybody LOVES when a museum or gallery puts on an exhibit of comic art that's themed as something more "art" than the overly abused Wham! BAM!! Thank you Batman!!! garbage, yet the same folks* wither at the thought of viewing the stuff as anything other than fanboys wet dreams on their own time, in the context of their own observations of the hobby and collecting experiences, endeavors and impossible to fulfill dreams. Why? I don't know. But it's not how I do it. I do it as both, fanboy fantasies fulfilled or not and "art", every piece I acquire. As art then, there is no "should"...just what "is". And for there I can cull out what I want and don't want for my collection, where my interests, aesthetic, and context intersect with those of the artists, industry, and marketplace. Word balloons -specifically- figure in barely at all then. Nothing wrong with them, but nothing particularly "art" about them either (in the sense that we're talking about a graphic or visual medium and thus the same as primary way to appreciate, critique, etc to begin with).

Anyway, the whole (ease and low cost of) text on overlays thing sort of negates the drama of this complaint anyway. I mean, if you vision of "interesting" requires text/balloons, this solution should do it. Or you tell me: why doesn't it?

 

*Not "you" per se here Rick but broadly the collective group of comic art collectors/fans.

[Rick2you2]

20 hours ago, vodou said:

Embrace the changes; glass half full pov: change keeps it interesting (imo). Anyway, things will change whether you go along with or not

See above.

Further...it's "art".

Funny thing - everybody LOVES when a museum or gallery puts on an exhibit of comic art that's themed as something more "art" than the overly abused Wham! BAM!! Thank you Batman!!! garbage, yet the same folks* wither at the thought of viewing the stuff as anything other than fanboys wet dreams on their own time, in the context of their own observations of the hobby and collecting experiences, endeavors and impossible to fulfill dreams. Why? I don't know. But it's not how I do it. I do it as both, fanboy fantasies fulfilled or not and "art", every piece I acquire. As art then, there is no "should"...just what "is". And for there I can cull out what I want and don't want for my collection, where my interests, aesthetic, and context intersect with those of the artists, industry, and marketplace. Word balloons -specifically- figure in barely at all then. Nothing wrong with them, but nothing particularly "art" about them either (in the sense that we're talking about a graphic or visual medium and thus the same as primary way to appreciate, critique, etc to begin with).

Anyway, the whole (ease and low cost of) text on overlays thing sort of negates the drama of this complaint anyway. I mean, if you vision of "interesting" requires text/balloons, this solution should do it. Or you tell me: why doesn't it?

 

*Not "you" per se here Rick but broadly the collective group of comic art collectors/fans.

In my view, comic art must be viewed in the context for which it is created. Fine art is context-independent--who cares where the Mona Lisa hangs? But comic art is like architecture, and that is very much dependent upon the surroundings. If you ever read an architectural review, you will see how the reviewer always comments on how a structure fits in with the surroundings. In the case of comic art, the surroundings are the story--because the art is designed to move the story, not the other way around (unless you are Neal Adams writing a Deadman mini-series which seems more designed to later maximize OA sales than present a good story).

Looking at a panel in which a character is expressing, say, exasperation at someone, without knowing why, loses important information. Did the artist fairly illustrate an emotion and response based on the subject at hand? That's why word balloons matter. If you don't care whether the artist is doing justice to a story, you may as well buy sketches.

As for overlays, I don't plan to spend hours doing a clip and glue job. If someone wants to run a business and charge me $25 per page to do it for me, let me know.

You said "embrace change." If the change stinks, why should I? I may have to stomach it, but I sure won't embrace it.

[vodou]

4 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

In the case of comic art, the surroundings are the story--because the art is designed to move the story, not the other way around (unless you are Neal Adams writing a Deadman mini-series which seems more designed to later maximize OA sales than present a good story).

Looking at a panel in which a character is expressing, say, exasperation at someone, without knowing why, loses important information. Did the artist fairly illustrate an emotion and response based on the subject at hand? That's why word balloons matter. If you don't care whether the artist is doing justice to a story, you may as well buy sketches.

The rest of what you wrote we could go back and forth on, personal preference and shades of grey to some extent, but I'm pulling the above out because I flat out disagree with it. Sequential art, where text is present (not always the case!), is by definition a symbiosis of words and pictures. One without the other is a book; the other without the one is...still sequential and often (cue: silent stories) complete unto itself. I can't make the visual subservient and dependent on the word as you do. Naturally, some pieces work better than others. Some artists (not to mention writers) are better than others too. But what I wrote here, as a blanket over the whole subject, is where I'm at.

"Looking at a panel...", well now you're doing exactly what you're saying you don't like: pulling things out of their context, out of their surroundings. Don't want to do that? Then don't pull a single panel out of a page, a page out of a complete story. That's problematic and impractical for collecting, especially vintage (and well actually modern too!) because of high prices and previous dispersion. So maybe this context view you have needs some re-working? And if so, then maybe the text balloons and boxes aren't as necessary either, practically speaking, under re-examination?

Overlays as a service have been mentioned around here in the past for (iirc) $50 per underlying original. It's not $25, but it's impossible either.

[MIL0S]

I have a twist on this topic, not modern art that's penciled/inked separately, but reuniting vintage John Buscema finished pages with the corresponding prelim/rough.  I've been able to do it three times and twice I ended up paying more money for the prelim. 

http://www.comicartfans.com/galleryroom.asp?gsub=50399

[Rick2you2]

22 hours ago, vodou said:

The rest of what you wrote we could go back and forth on, personal preference and shades of grey to some extent, but I'm pulling the above out because I flat out disagree with it. Sequential art, where text is present (not always the case!), is by definition a symbiosis of words and pictures. One without the other is a book; the other without the one is...still sequential and often (cue: silent stories) complete unto itself. I can't make the visual subservient and dependent on the word as you do. Naturally, some pieces work better than others. Some artists (not to mention writers) are better than others too. But what I wrote here, as a blanket over the whole subject, is where I'm at.

"Looking at a panel...", well now you're doing exactly what you're saying you don't like: pulling things out of their context, out of their surroundings. Don't want to do that? Then don't pull a single panel out of a page, a page out of a complete story. That's problematic and impractical for collecting, especially vintage (and well actually modern too!) because of high prices and previous dispersion. So maybe this context view you have needs some re-working? And if so, then maybe the text balloons and boxes aren't as necessary either, practically speaking, under re-examination?

Overlays as a service have been mentioned around here in the past for (iirc) $50 per underlying original. It's not $25, but it's impossible either.

I wasn't referring to pages without word balloons, but no, sequential art loses something important without dialog--context. I offer the following as an example of what I mean. This is a Legends page on eBay (no, I am not a bidder). 

In my opinion, what makes the page work as commercial art is the dialog (and underlying plot). You get to read the philosophical debate of the 2 leads, and see how the art both complements and amplifies it. If you want to say it is a symbiosis, that's fine. But without knowing the dialog, it could be a really pointless bit of art: a ranging shot of a mountain and some mechanical rubbish beneath it, Darkseid pointing to something with the Phantom Stranger behind; and then a giant yelling at the sky.  Here is some fake dialog to show how important the real stuff is: 

Panel 1: PS. "Hey Darkseid, can you please tell your minions to clean that junk off the mountain base? The locals are planning a road rally tomorrow and it's blocking a curve."

D. "Sorry about that Stranger. Granny Goodness always was a slob."

Panel 2: 

D. "Hey Stranger, why is that pizza delivery man outside our mountain hideway?"

PS. "Uh, well..."

Panel 3:

B: "Where's that a-hole who gave me a credit card number which expired!"

 

[vodou]

10 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I wasn't referring to pages without word balloons, but no, sequential art loses something important without dialog--context. I offer the following as an example of what I mean. This is a Legends page on eBay (no, I am not a bidder). 

In my opinion, what makes the page work as commercial art is the dialog (and underlying plot). You get to read the philosophical debate of the 2 leads, and see how the art both complements and amplifies it. If you want to say it is a symbiosis, that's fine. But without knowing the dialog, it could be a really pointless bit of art: a ranging shot of a mountain and some mechanical rubbish beneath it, Darkseid pointing to something with the Phantom Stranger behind; and then a giant yelling at the sky.  Here is some fake dialog to show how important the real stuff is: 

Panel 1: PS. "Hey Darkseid, can you please tell your minions to clean that junk off the mountain base? The locals are planning a road rally tomorrow and it's blocking a curve."

D. "Sorry about that Stranger. Granny Goodness always was a slob."

Panel 2: 

D. "Hey Stranger, why is that pizza delivery man outside our mountain hideway?"

PS. "Uh, well..."

Panel 3:

B: "Where's that a-hole who gave me a credit card number which expired!"

 

On the surface, a seemingly fine example of your argument above. But text-less originals as "a thing" largely coincided with decompressed storytelling, mid-90s to present. Result? Less words to begin with per page, less importance on those words being present to "get" what you're holding in your hands. IMO. Your example was common thirty years ago, uncommonly rare today. Circular reasoning fallacy, at least until you can show a broad (not one or two) sampling of today's (largely decompressed) storytelling originals where your case would also be true. I could show you plenty of examples with of text-less or one or two dialogue pages where the art carries the story, so much so that what little text is present is (almost?) redundant. That's a bit subjective there though, goes to qualitative criticism of "good" writing, "good" art, and the marriage of the two when sequentially speaking: what's "good" in decompressed storytelling? Big subject, not to be solved in one post (or a hundred) -if ever. And -definitely- for another day

[Rick2you2]

 

10 minutes ago, vodou said:

I could show you plenty of examples with of text-less or one or two dialogue pages where the art carries the story, so much so that what little text is present is (almost?) redundant.

Yet another reason it is so hard for me to find comic stories I like, and want to read, as compared to skimming and abandoning. 

On to other stuff.

[vodou]

8 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

 

Yet another reason it is so hard for me to find comic stories I like, and want to read, as compared to skimming and abandoning. 

On to other stuff.

But I'm not done with you yet

I felt the same way as you, exactly the same way on all points until...just a few months ago. Felix Lu linked me to a web page naming the best comics the 21st century has offered to date. Just a handful had I heard of before, the rest unknowns. I felt it was unfair to continue to judge comics (all comics) post-Image on the fact that Image (and all that came with, not to just blame "them") pushed me out of comics for twenty years*. Being pretty burnt out on vintage comics (and the sky high prices of the corresponding originals), it was time to give new comics another try. Or just walk (yeah, right!) I noticed the same writers and artists popped up repeatedly on that list, so I started buying their omnibuses (many still 40-50% off srp at instocktrades.com!), one at a time, with an open mind. What I found was: there are good comics in the decompressed storytelling era. Or at least good for me. Did a lot of reading and now I'm doing the art. Comics and art are fun again, actually a lot of fun now, with an open mind toward allowing how sequential storytelling and the original art have changed the last twenty-five years. I'm having fun again. And without having to pay four-five figures for every original that comes in the mail. Just putting this out there...maybe it will resonate, if not with you then others...maybe?

 

*save 100 Bullets and some indie oddities.

[Rick2you2]

2 hours ago, vodou said:

But I'm not done with you yet

I felt the same way as you, exactly the same way on all points until...just a few months ago. Felix Lu linked me to a web page naming the best comics the 21st century has offered to date. Just a handful had I heard of before, the rest unknowns. I felt it was unfair to continue to judge comics (all comics) post-Image on the fact that Image (and all that came with, not to just blame "them") pushed me out of comics for twenty years*. Being pretty burnt out on vintage comics (and the sky high prices of the corresponding originals), it was time to give new comics another try. Or just walk (yeah, right!) I noticed the same writers and artists popped up repeatedly on that list, so I started buying their omnibuses (many still 40-50% off srp at instocktrades.com!), one at a time, with an open mind. What I found was: there are good comics in the decompressed storytelling era. Or at least good for me. Did a lot of reading and now I'm doing the art. Comics and art are fun again, actually a lot of fun now, with an open mind toward allowing how sequential storytelling and the original art have changed the last twenty-five years. I'm having fun again. And without having to pay four-five figures for every original that comes in the mail. Just putting this out there...maybe it will resonate, if not with you then others...maybe?

 

*save 100 Bullets and some indie oddities.

For all it is worth, my comment regarding art was really directed at the Big Two. 

I actually have bought alternative books, and have always done so. I bought American Flagg when it first came out, Rocketeer, Concrete (excellent), Badger, and a bunch of others.

Some have been good. Others have been uneven, but with a worthwhile premise. One recent one, for example, is called "Mid-Life Crisis." The premise is about a middle-aged, mid-level powered superhero who never achieves stardom (except for his 9 month stint in the equivalent of the JLA), and has now reached his "mid-life crisis". Its focus, at least in the first issue, was about how it is impacting him and his family as human beings. The second issue, unfortunately, wasted a little too much time on the superheroing aspects instead of the human aspects. Maybe the third (which I haven't seen) will be better focused on the initial premise. 

When I go to shows, I also like to try and sample what is there. Some is interesting, some is derivative, some is just plain weird, like the book about a high school serial killer who is a good guy. 

 

[vodou]

30 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

...like the book about a high school serial killer who is a good guy.

What's the title? If it's handled well by the writer, I like being challenged in my reading.

Remember those old comics when the Good Guys were absolutely puritanically GOOD (Clark Kent never marries and thus never gets laid) and the bad guys were always members of The Master of Evil or The Secret Society of Super-Villains? Thank you Marvel and DC for making it really easy to tell who was cooler (hint: it was the bad guys!) Being older than age twelve, I'm really past the whole black-and-white morality stuff. Shades of grey is real life and makes for more interesting stories and storytelling opportunities for writers.

If you're looking for my shortlist of recent captivating writers it's: Brubaker, Kindt, Lemire. Plenty of others too, I'm sure. I prefer their non-Big Two output.

[Rick2you2]

15 minutes ago, vodou said:

What's the title? If it's handled well by the writer, I like being challenged in my reading.

Remember those old comics when the Good Guys were absolutely puritanically GOOD (Clark Kent never marries and thus never gets laid) and the bad guys were always members of The Master of Evil or The Secret Society of Super-Villains? Thank you Marvel and DC for making it really easy to tell who was cooler (hint: it was the bad guys!) Being older than age twelve, I'm really past the whole black-and-white morality stuff. Shades of grey is real life and makes for more interesting stories and storytelling opportunities for writers.

If you're looking for my shortlist of recent captivating writers it's: Brubaker, Kindt, Lemire. Plenty of others too, I'm sure. I prefer their non-Big Two output.

I think it was something like "Jagged Edge". It also has a lot of "dead time" in which suspense was supposed to build. After several pages, I went into "skim and be done mode." I don't know where it is, but I probably dropped it off at Goodwill Industries with some others (An excellent place to send old comics which you don't want and aren't worth selling). 

The problem with so many books whch I have read is that I can no longer suspend disbelief to get through them--I know too much. How is it that any cities are being rebuilt after being devastated by some supervillain? The money would mostly come from property insurance companies, and they would be nuts to write policies in a place by Metropolis. Federal disaster relief aid would have to be consuming at least 25% of the budget in whatever world is occupied by the Hulk, etc. Yet none of this is ever brought up.

And then, we have the bad science. For example (not the only one, just one I have handy), is in Howard Chaykin's recent series "The Divided States of Hysteria." A woman has a "snatch" nuclear device which blows up a city shortly after she gets off a plane. Guess what? No way. The radiation shielding would have to be huge to give her even temporary protection, and without it, she would start to be really sick within 20 minutes of exposure (vomiting, skin and hair falling out, physical weakness, etc). She'd be dead in 1-3 days.Then, there is the little matter of weight--uranium is the heaviest natural element in the world, and she would need about 15 lbs. of it, plus an explosive device and casing, for there to be a bomb. That's one big snatch, braced, persumably, to hold the weight. And while we are at it, how did it get through the metal detector? Uranium and plutonium are both metals. This is why I lean towards the supernatural where science goes out the window.

I hope the writers on your list, who I may well try, stay with either personal interactive stories, or at least don't go with fake realism. Suggestions?

[Pete Marino]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

 

I hope the writers on your list, who I may well try, stay with either personal interactive stories, or at least don't go with fake realism. Suggestions?

Mind MGMT by Matt Kindt is awesome.

A recent read by me, pride of baghdad by Brian k Vaughn was a quick but fantastic read.

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

How is it that any cities are being rebuilt after being devastated by some supervillain?

Funny you bring this up, I was going to use the example of Marvel's "Damage Control" title as the first time (that I noticed anyway) either company trying to incorporate some basic economic consequences into their universes. In my previous post that is, then I forgot to put it in.

I have trouble with superheroes and superhero stories today, same as yourself. I've been pulled in by writers that write character-heavy. Maybe I'll get bored with this too in time, but for now it's working. I also find decompressed "issues" impossible (I'm not waiting 30 days for the next "4 minutes in comic time" chapter of a story!), but in collected omnibus form...if it's good, can still take 3-5 days of early morning or late night reading to get through. That's enough to keep me interested and coming back next time (next project of same writer) too.

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

I hope the writers on your list, who I may well try, stay with either personal interactive stories, or at least don't go with fake realism. Suggestions?

Yes personal interactive stories. Try Brubaker's Fatale or Velvet (though this one you may have some problems with) or Lemire's Essex County.